Pokemon Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Dyslexicon]

I have a question tho: how do we know mafia is keeping their side of the bargain? Are votes public?

If we want them to be.

If you me and Dizzy say we vote for Nutella and Nutella doesn't have a power, we know there is a baddie between the four of us.

[G-Man]

I like this whole trying to break the game open and looking for tactical advantage. Reminds me of the old days. Question for you big thinkers- if we pile up 3 evolution votes on a player who is mafia, what's to stop them from saying, "Hey, yeah, I evolved," when they didn't?

Also, if this plan goes through, you should probably try to mandate people not just alternate between the same people if they're still alive. In theory, a baddie could just switch back and forth between their teammates if two baddies wind up in the evolution pool.

[boo]

Mafias biggest power is the kill and that is usually a constant regardless of night powers.

While town's biggest power in terms of abilities are the cop and other info roles.

We probably cant stop mafia from killing by denying them evolution, but they can stop us from investigating.

Well seeing as the kill is a team power that's already listed, I'm not sure that qualifies as a "probably".

[boo]

I have a question tho: how do we know mafia is keeping their side of the bargain? Are votes public?

If we want them to be.

If you me and Dizzy say we vote for Nutella and Nutella doesn't have a power, we know there is a baddie between the four of us.

No. There are roles that can't evolve. And why the four of you? LA not getting a power when three other people supposedly voted for her would say nothing about her alignment.

[boo]

I think the type will impact voting. If you vote for someone you're weak against, it isn't worth as much, and it's worth more if you're strong against them. Otherwise business as usual.

[sprityo]

Are y'all enjoying your day zero shenanigans? It's noon and I just woke up, so I can assure I won't be reading anything before this

Also hi jack. We'll see how much I can trust you.

[sprityo]

If you start out the game contradicting yourself, then you'll never be suspected 10/10 fool proof strategy

[Dyslexicon]

I like this whole trying to break the game open and looking for tactical advantage. Reminds me of the old days. Question for you big thinkers- if we pile up 3 evolution votes on a player who is mafia, what's to stop them from saying, "Hey, yeah, I evolved," when they didn't?

Pretty sure Mafia can evolve too - so nothing is stopping them no. That wasn't the point either.

Also, if this plan goes through, you should probably try to mandate people not just alternate between the same people if they're still alive. In theory, a baddie could just switch back and forth between their teammates if two baddies wind up in the evolution pool.

In theory they could. The hope would be that the collective reads are better than chance and that we force mafia to not vote each other - at the very least not use all their three votes on each other. The ties between who votes for who to get the evo points could also be read into later with flips etc, if the information is out in the open.

[Dyslexicon]

No. There are roles that can't evolve. And why the four of you? LA not getting a power when three other people supposedly voted for her would say nothing about her alignment.

I think Jack meant that in this hypothetical situation the possibilities are - either me, Jack or Dragon would be lying, and a forth possibility is that Nut would be lying about not having evolved to throw shade at the three of us (I didn't count this as a possibility the first time around cause I didn't think of it). Regardless, if we do organize and openly discuss evo voting, chances are mafia would not want to bring attention to themselves by messing it up.

As far as I can see only 1 town role does not evolve.

[speedchuck]

I also don't think we have time to organize, but what if we bias the game to get role powers for people?

Like, form a pool of six-ish candidates and encourage people to throw their points into that pool?

[Dyslexicon]

I think the type will impact voting. If you vote for someone you're weak against, it isn't worth as much, and it's worth more if you're strong against them. Otherwise business as usual.

That's interesting. If this turns out that voting correspond to type I think that could be potentially game solving? If the ghastly role for example is immune to normal type votes for being a ghost type, that would be exposable.

I don't necessarily think this is the case, personally.

[Dyslexicon]

I also don't think we have time to organize, but what if we bias the game to get role powers for people?

Like, form a pool of six-ish candidates and encourage people to throw their points into that pool?

Time when? For N1?
If you narrow down to six candidates it would be much better to just assign who votes for who so all six would be boosted. If you do it half way then chances are only a couple or three of those people would evolve. Why not do it all the way?

[Jackofhearts2005]

I like this whole trying to break the game open and looking for tactical advantage. Reminds me of the old days. Question for you big thinkers- if we pile up 3 evolution votes on a player who is mafia, what's to stop them from saying, "Hey, yeah, I evolved," when they didn't?

Also, if this plan goes through, you should probably try to mandate people not just alternate between the same people if they're still alive. In theory, a baddie could just switch back and forth between their teammates if two baddies wind up in the evolution pool.

Why wouldn't the bad guys evolve?

Mewtwo would lie, yeah, but the plan is designed to enpower the town, not catch the serial killer.

I have a question tho: how do we know mafia is keeping their side of the bargain? Are votes public?

If we want them to be.

If you me and Dizzy say we vote for Nutella and Nutella doesn't have a power, we know there is a baddie between the four of us.

No. There are roles that can't evolve. And why the four of you? LA not getting a power when three other people supposedly voted for her would say nothing about her alignment.

There is one town role that doesn't evolve and one indy. They'll just lie in that situation. Nbd.

Why did I choose those four? Cause they were the last four to post.

Why would one of those four be bad in that scenario? Cause either DDL, Diz or me didn't really evolve Nut or Nut is lying about not evolving. Ergo, one of the four (at least) is bad.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Im actually Ditto, Indy.

Every day I choose a player and have to copy things they say. Today, I'm Dizzy but with a different face.

(This is not an actual roleclaim.)

[Jackofhearts2005]

I also don't think we have time to organize, but what if we bias the game to get role powers for people?

Like, form a pool of six-ish candidates and encourage people to throw their points into that pool?

This is a good idea.


I submit the pool as: Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Not that scared of evolving baddies.

So many baddie powers are damn near wasted in almost vanilla. Block, misdirect, doctor, frame, power cop, janitor....who cares? Only silencing and vote manipulation is roughly as dangerous as a town cop or doc or block.

[speedchuck]

I also don't think we have time to organize, but what if we bias the game to get role powers for people?

Like, form a pool of six-ish candidates and encourage people to throw their points into that pool?

Time when? For N1?
If you narrow down to six candidates it would be much better to just assign who votes for who so all six would be boosted. If you do it half way then chances are only a couple or three of those people would evolve. Why not do it all the way?

Nah, for Day 0. Like, right now.

Night 1 would work with assigned votes.

linki: sounds good, JoH

[speedchuck]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Not that scared of evolving baddies.

So many baddie powers are damn near wasted in almost vanilla. Block, misdirect, doctor, frame, power cop, janitor....who cares? Only silencing and vote manipulation is roughly as dangerous as a town cop or doc or block.

Block can be used to shut down one of those evolved town roles we are telegraphing to mafia.

Redirect is unrealiable but can be incredibly potent if it gets to redirect a kill.

Doctor depends if we have kills. But at the very least, it protects them from mewtwo.

Janitor is a key role in games where claiming is allowed (not the case).

Power cop is really good. It buffs the abilities mentioned above.

Framer is situational, I agree.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

Why five? Cant we buff six?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I dont disagree with the list, but I want to evolve too eventually (doesnt have to be now).

[Dragon D. Luffy]

From experience town roles are the ones that tend to be mostly useless.

Except info gathering roles.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Not that scared of evolving baddies.

So many baddie powers are damn near wasted in almost vanilla. Block, misdirect, doctor, frame, power cop, janitor....who cares? Only silencing and vote manipulation is roughly as dangerous as a town cop or doc or block.

Block can be used to shut down one of those evolved town roles we are telegraphing to mafia.

Redirect is unrealiable but can be incredibly potent if it gets to redirect a kill.

Doctor depends if we have kills. But at the very least, it protects them from mewtwo.

Janitor is a key role in games where claiming is allowed (not the case).

Power cop is really good. It buffs the abilities mentioned above.

Framer is situational, I agree.

Which is better?

Creating a townie cop and a mafia blocker to block him?

Or leaving both vanilla?

I'm not seeing the downside. Most mafia powers are for dealing with town powers....that we won't have if we don't coordinate.

Any given townie power baring vote manipulation can potentially catch a baddie or stop a kill. The mafia has a power to mess up no matter what we do.

[G-Man]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

If I understand you right, your Evolve Vote list is comprised of people you feel inclined to trust based on prior experience with them?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

This is not about downside. I just dont want to see people going around saying all mafia roles are useless, because thats a downright terrible tactical mistake. We need to be taking them into consideration as we make those plans.

A cop among six players is hard to be blocked, so yeah its better. But reading you say a mafia roleblocker is useless is giving me shivers.

[Jackofhearts2005]

This is not about downside. I just dont want to see people going around saying all mafia roles are useless, because thats a downright terrible tactical mistake. We need to be taking them into consideration as we make those plans.

A cop among six players is hard to be blocked, so yeah its better. But reading you say a mafia roleblocker is useless is giving me shivers.

It's not useless.

It's the risk of creating one that is by far outweighed by the strong of gaining town powers.

[G-Man]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

Is my understanding correct?
If I understand you right, your Evolve Vote list is comprised of people you feel inclined to trust based on prior experience with them?

[G-Man]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

If I understand you right, your Evolve Vote list is comprised of people you feel inclined to trust based on prior experience with them?

Is my understanding correct?

*kicks iphone for quote fail*

[speedchuck]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

If I understand you right, your Evolve Vote list is comprised of people you feel inclined to trust based on prior experience with them?

Is my understanding correct?

*kicks iphone for quote fail*

Ask JoH. He came up with the list.

I wouldn't come up with a list and put myself on it. And I'm perfectly fine with having a list of 6.

[G-Man]

I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

[DFaraday]

I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

I agree. I don't even know some of the people on Jack's list. Although I'm really not crazy about this plan, since there's every chance we could end up empowering one or more baddies, who then will immediately take out their fellow power roles. Furthermore, if Mew/Mewtwo are part of the Oceanic Six, we'll spend the game funneling points into a black hole.

I think it might be more effective to allot points this round to a group of six, as suggested, then rotate on future rounds so that other players can get powers. Granted, this strategy pretty much ensures giving Mafia powers, but it would also keep an array of civvie powers in play even if Mafia start NKing power roles.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Boo
Gman
Dizzy
Nutella
Speedchuck
DF

Thats my proposed list. You guys post yours. I propose we make a deadline for it and then everyone sends their votes. Is 3 hours before the end of N0 good enough?

[sprityo]

Anybody disagree with "Fred, Tony, LC, Nutella, Speed" as the list of five preferred Evo's on Day 0?

I already threw my vote in there. If someone doesn't want me in there because I helped come up with the idea, swap me out for Sprityo maybe. But unless there are objections, this'll do for D0.

On N1, we can do public assigning.

Where are we getting this list from? A first come first serve or are we simply just following like sheep?

Or is this a synopsis of people who have been known to be town in a game (even though that's honestly not the best way to go)

[G-Man]

Boo
Gman
Dizzy
Nutella
Speedchuck
DF

Thats my proposed list. You guys post yours. I propose we make a deadline for it and then everyone sends their votes. Is 3 hours before the end of N0 good enough?

It's currently 44 minutes until your 3-hour mark.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Scumread: DDL

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

Describe a scenario where I cause us to give powers to 3-5 players and the outcome is worse than if we all just vote for whoever and nobody gets a power.

It is far too late in the day for your plan.

[sprityo]

Why would we need a deadline for opinions? I mean I get deadlines force reads out of people but there's no way to enforce that without guaranteed consequences

[sprityo]

Jack is right in the aspect that trying to organize something may produce a good outcome, but ultimately nobody getting a power would be better than mafia. Especially since we still have our most powerful tool at our disposal, the lynch

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

I agree. I don't even know some of the people on Jack's list. Although I'm really not crazy about this plan, since there's every chance we could end up empowering one or more baddies, who then will immediately take out their fellow power roles. Furthermore, if Mew/Mewtwo are part of the Oceanic Six, we'll spend the game funneling points into a black hole.

I think it might be more effective to allot points this round to a group of six, as suggested, then rotate on future rounds so that other players can get powers. Granted, this strategy pretty much ensures giving Mafia powers, but it would also keep an array of civvie powers in play even if Mafia start NKing power roles.

Okay. So we might empower a bad guy and give them a block or frame or whatever so they can impede town rolls....how is this worse than just letting the town all be vanilla?

So we might funnel a bunch of points into a Mew and nobody gets a power. How is this worse than tossing points about at random and nobody gets a power?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Boo
Gman
Dizzy
Nutella
Speedchuck
DF

Thats my proposed list. You guys post yours. I propose we make a deadline for it and then everyone sends their votes. Is 3 hours before the end of N0 good enough?

It's currently 44 minutes until your 3-hour mark.

Doesnt the day end 8 pm est? It should be more than that.

Anyway early I said getting organized on day 0 was impossible. I'm still skeptical about it, but if thats where you guys are going you need to start putting your lists right now or this will just end with people comically screaming at each other at day end. Getting a 18 player consensus in a non-real time game isnt trivial.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Boo
Gman
Dizzy
Nutella
Speedchuck
DF

Thats my proposed list. You guys post yours. I propose we make a deadline for it and then everyone sends their votes. Is 3 hours before the end of N0 good enough?

It's currently 44 minutes until your 3-hour mark.

Doesnt the day end 8 pm est? It should be more than that.

Anyway early I said getting organized on day 0 was impossible. I'm still skeptical about it, but if thats where you guys are going you need to start putting your lists right now or this will just end with people comically screaming at each other at day end. Getting a 18 player consensus in a non-real time game isnt trivial.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Why would we need a deadline for opinions? I mean I get deadlines force reads out of people but there's no way to enforce that without guaranteed consequences

We need to agree on the idea of lists. Then post them. Then count the votes. Then split the players who will vote on each person. Then getting everyone to come online and vote.

We have about 5-6 for all that by my count. If you want it to realistically work, we need to stop arguing and get it done.

[speedchuck]

nobody getting a power would be better than mafia.

Not really.

We've been through this, but basically: Mafia knows who the town are. Town doesn't know who the mafia are. So townies are looking for direction, info, and power, where mafia is looking for misdirection and power.

Mafia powers hardly matter unless town has powers too.

I sent in my points to LC, who was on the first list. I hope at least some people will follow the lists. Anything to group points is better for town than not. We can plan better when more people check in and night one approaches.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Or we can just shut up and follow jack's meta list. That works too and is easier. But we dont have long to reach that consensus either.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Oh nvm there are already people saying "fuck consensus" and sending their votes.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Scumread: DDL

Thanks. Ive been the overwhelming d1 suspect in the last four games I played, it feels weird when Im not.

[DFaraday]

If we're still considering alternatives to Jack's list:

G-Man
Boo
DDL
Dyslexicon

Those are the only ones I'm leaning somewhat civ on so far.

[DFaraday]

I'm not fine with putting such a strategy together based solely on one person's preferences. If Jack wants a list, let's all submit five or six names and select the ones that appear the most. If the plan can indeed thumb the scale in our favor, then it's too important to be nonchalant about picking names.

I agree. I don't even know some of the people on Jack's list. Although I'm really not crazy about this plan, since there's every chance we could end up empowering one or more baddies, who then will immediately take out their fellow power roles. Furthermore, if Mew/Mewtwo are part of the Oceanic Six, we'll spend the game funneling points into a black hole.

I think it might be more effective to allot points this round to a group of six, as suggested, then rotate on future rounds so that other players can get powers. Granted, this strategy pretty much ensures giving Mafia powers, but it would also keep an array of civvie powers in play even if Mafia start NKing power roles.

Okay. So we might empower a bad guy and give them a block or frame or whatever so they can impede town rolls....how is this worse than just letting the town all be vanilla?

So we might funnel a bunch of points into a Mew and nobody gets a power. How is this worse than tossing points about at random and nobody gets a power?

I didn't say at random. I said on rotation. If we focus all our points only on six players the baddies can easily pick off the threats to them (especially if any of those six are baddies/Mew/Mewtwo)

[speedchuck]

Oh nvm there are already people saying "fuck consensus" and sending their votes.

I sent my vote after the first list, and before objections. I'd like groupings of votes, and I don't care where they go.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I was trying to get us to decide on a list by democracy.

Now we are all forced to follow jack's list. Assuming this coordination thing still has a chance to work.