Champions 2019 - Crisis on The Syndicate [GAME OVER]

[Michelle]

Also I agree with Michelle, at least one of the vanilla voters are mafia.

did this came from TMI or is wifom?

[Tranq]

This is where i'm at right now:

CIV:
----
Dom
Epignosis
G-Man
Jackofhearts2005
juliets
TonyStarkPrime
Tranq

BAD:
----
ColinIsCool (not AM)
JaggedJimmyJay (not AM) or Turnip Head (not AM)
NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME 2.0
Sloonei (not AM)

NOT SURE:
----
Michelle (not AM, not Master)
speedchuck (not AM, not Master)
tedxtr (not AM, not Master)

If there are good reasons to dispute any of the above, let me know.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also I agree with Michelle, at least one of the vanilla voters are mafia.

did this came from TMI or is wifom?

I would interpret that as meaningless filler. These people voted vanilla:

speedchuck
Jack
TSP
Nanook 1
sprityo
G-Man

Do you see a mafioso in this pile?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If there are good reasons to dispute any of the above, let me know.

I'd like to hear more about what you think of Epignosis and tedxtr.

[Turnip Head]

Wow you've got your finger on my pulse. That's exactly what I've been doing.

Poe in the morning

define morning in GMT time please.

Mafia morning, Mafia Standard Time

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't think Sloonei is bad. He's been a general and perhaps vague civilian read for a while; he solidified himself effectively on Day 5. I felt his assessments of Mac interactions looked quite authentic, and the insights were useful -- like someone truly hunting for Mac's teammates. I also doubt he's the anti-monitor.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My perception of your play. I wouldn't expect Mac's teammate to build such a thorough case on me either. I guess you could still be the antimonitor

I don't believe this

[Jackofhearts2005]

That is kinda the most mild buddying possible.

[Turnip Head]

My perception of your play. I wouldn't expect Mac's teammate to build such a thorough case on me either. I guess you could still be the antimonitor

I don't believe this

Why not?

[Turnip Head]

I coulda gotten you lynched yesterday you goon

[Turnip Head]

Against all reason

[Turnip Head]

That is kinda the most mild buddying possible.

It almost feels like I'm doing whatever I want without regard for how it makes me look

[Dom]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My perception of your play. I wouldn't expect Mac's teammate to build such a thorough case on me either. I guess you could still be the antimonitor

I don't believe this

Why not?

You didn't answer me before when I asked you the same question.

Why would a teammate of Mac not build a thorough case on you?

[Sloonei]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

Doubtful

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't believe I have heard a single peep of feedback about that case, by the way, other than TH mentioning it off-hand there. Sloonei kind of has an independent view via his analyses, so that's groovy. Someone else give me a perspective please.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't believe I have heard a single peep of feedback about that case, by the way, other than TH mentioning it off-hand there. Sloonei kind of has an independent view via his analyses, so that's groovy. Someone else give me a perspective please.

For your clicking convenience

[Dom]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

Doubtful

Why

[Sloonei]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

Doubtful

Why

I don't think bussing reaches this level of aggression, particularly when neither member was really a big candidate previously (maybe y'all talked about a Jay/TH as suspects on Inception Day, i dunno). Also, I just don't see it. I'm not inclined to believe something purely on the basis of "what if?"

[juliets]

I am in the thread but reading through Jay's posts to refresh so I can articulate why I town read him. I'll check back here every once in a while.

[Sloonei]

Spoiler: show

THs lack of discussion and relying on others to do it for them gives me more of a scum lean.

Okay I asked my boy Jimmy to take a look at my top suspect. That doesn't make it a trend y'know.

And I don't think I'm not lacking discussion. I've discussed lots of things. Though I admit to saying less than I think

I am highlighting this specific comment for a reason. To this point in the review/case, it is believable. They haven't laid out their cards on the table. Cool. Later this looms larger for me though. I'll reference back.

I'm not somebody else, but I have a question about the TH case, [mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention]. You brought up this point and indicated that it would be relevant later. I don't see you bring it back up anywhere else in this case. Could you complete the thought, or point me to the moment where you completed it?

[Dom]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

Doubtful

Why

I don't think bussing reaches this level of aggression, particularly when neither member was really a big candidate previously (maybe y'all talked about a Jay/TH as suspects on Inception Day, i dunno). Also, I just don't see it. I'm not inclined to believe something purely on the basis of "what if?"

You thought it was aggressive?
There was pretty much no chance of anyone but sig going...

[Sloonei]

Anyone think TH and Jay are teammates who just distanced real good?

Doubtful

Why

I don't think bussing reaches this level of aggression, particularly when neither member was really a big candidate previously (maybe y'all talked about a Jay/TH as suspects on Inception Day, i dunno). Also, I just don't see it. I'm not inclined to believe something purely on the basis of "what if?"

You thought it was aggressive?
There was pretty much no chance of anyone but sig going...

Aggressive doesn't have to mean either of them was angling to lynch the other that day (though Jay was close to the noose for a moment there). "Aggressive" just means they were/are impassioned and seriously pushing their respective cases.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

THs lack of discussion and relying on others to do it for them gives me more of a scum lean.

Okay I asked my boy Jimmy to take a look at my top suspect. That doesn't make it a trend y'know.

And I don't think I'm not lacking discussion. I've discussed lots of things. Though I admit to saying less than I think

I am highlighting this specific comment for a reason. To this point in the review/case, it is believable. They haven't laid out their cards on the table. Cool. Later this looms larger for me though. I'll reference back.

I'm not somebody else, but I have a question about the TH case, JaggedJimmyJay. You brought up this point and indicated that it would be relevant later. I don't see you bring it back up anywhere else in this case. Could you complete the thought, or point me to the moment where you completed it?

Shore thing. I returned to it here, in the last bit:

Spoiler: show

Cause town has perverse incentive to cooperate with scum that have good SRs on the opposite team, so you see mac as doing that and think it’s a townie mindset

Would be my guess anyways

I really really really really dislike his flip flop on how he read me and Nutella. He declared me a wolf and Nutella one we should follow after the two of us started battling. Then like 12 hours later, I was town and Nutella was scum because I read her perfectly.

His argument for Nutella being scum exists in its entirety at the time he expressed a strong townread on her. His read change does not come from a town perspective. It comes from a scum perspective mimicking townplay, ie trusting Jack's Nutella read.

Why would baddie Mac express a strong townread on nutella and then flip flop just as soon? Why would a bad guy do that? It's a townie maneuever, just like your exact opposite flip flop was (I assume) townie.

Garbage. The premise underlying this read is pure crap. I don't care if I felt it looked authentic before. I don't now. I mean look at me with a straight face and read this post out loud.

Why would a baddie express a strong town read and then flip flop just as soon? Why would a bad guy do that?

What? That's not a real thought. Mafia members do things like this in just about every damned game. No. This is MacDougall we're talking about. I hate it.

Moreover, consider the detail of this read and how that detail compares with TH's other reads to this point. Remember that highlighted bit I referenced earlier? TH isn't keeping any cards unrevealed here. They're saying plenty in Mac's favor. That means they treated Mac differently than they treated other players -- including other town reads. That is on its own an important thing.

Generally, up to that point when TH presented their reads they were frank and concise, often without clear explanations as is their style. When it came to reading Mac, that was not the case. The difference stands out to me.

[Sloonei]

Groovy. The Mac bits are the juiciest details in the case for me, probably because it aligns with my perspective on the other side of those interactions.

[Epignosis]

I'm here for a bit. NBA is gross tonight. Literally.

[Epignosis]

I suddenly have more time for Mafia now.

The NBA announced it has suspended the 2019-20 season following Wednesday's games until further notice. The league will use this hiatus to determine the next steps for moving forward in regard to the coronavirus pandemic.

[Turnip Head]

[other]overreaction much[/ot]

[Long Con]

Cataclysm?

The heroes counted themselves lucky to have escaped the awful hellscape of the Anti-Matter universe, even if it had been through the nightmare Dreamscape of the Architect. Back with the Monitor at his fortress base, they were able to take a night and relax, preparing for whatever came next.

Harriet went strolling, humming softly to herself as her cats danced and bumped her legs. Soon, she came to a large door, marked 'ARMORY'. "Oooh," she said to her cats, "I should indeed like to see some fine armour!"

Her cats meowed in protest as she tried to open the door. "Drat it all," she said, frustrated, "Why's it all locked up?" Then an idea came to her - her Monitor-enhanced powers might be just the thing! She focused her pyrokinetics on heating up the large lock, and to her delight, it soon began to melt away!

Harriet clapped her hands as she nudged the hot door open with her foot. Entering the armory, she was surprised to see that it wasn't armour at all! Instead, there were grand weapons of all types, all on display!

She could feel her heart beating faster, as she thought about the grand fires these weapons could create! Her cats yowled and hissed as her hands began to glow.

"Oh my!" cried Harriet, sparks leaping to the various rockets and grenade launchers. As they began to fire, her cats reared up and scratched her legs, fed up with her foolish ways. Harriet cried and fell to the floor, and the cats descended upon her, feral with annoyance. She shrieked as they all were immolated by the chain reaction of explosions, which blew a quarter of the Monitor's base to rubble.

NANOOK has been killed! He was Harriet, a Civilian, from Shockheaded Peter Mafia by Epignosis.

It is now Day 6. Due to the night poll result, there will be two lynches today: one regular, and one by secret vote!

[speedchuck]

okay I was wrong

[G-Man]

Oh boy.

[Sloonei]

Harriet - Each night, you will choose two players to bodyguard. If one of the players you guard is targeted with a nightkill, the kill will be redirected to you, and the targeter will receive an extra three votes in the next lynch. If one of the players you guard is targeted negatively, but non-lethally, the targeter will receive an extra two votes in the next lynch.

[Sloonei]

Harriet - Each night, you will choose two players to bodyguard. If one of the players you guard is targeted with a nightkill, the kill will be redirected to you, and the targeter will receive an extra three votes in the next lynch. If one of the players you guard is targeted negatively, but non-lethally, the targeter will receive an extra two votes in the next lynch.

The Anti-Monitor's Team - Kills on odd nights

Anti-monitor currently has a vote worth 4 and is starting the day with -2 votes against them.

[Epignosis]

Someone ask me something mafia related. Fuck NBA. Fuck hysteria.

[Epignosis]

My B Nanook.

[Sloonei]

Someone ask me something mafia related. Fuck NBA. Fuck hysteria.

JaggedJimmyJay and Turnip Head: what are their alignments?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Harriet - Each night, you will choose two players to bodyguard. If one of the players you guard is targeted with a nightkill, the kill will be redirected to you, and the targeter will receive an extra three votes in the next lynch. If one of the players you guard is targeted negatively, but non-lethally, the targeter will receive an extra two votes in the next lynch.

Awards presenter and Agatha (and Antimonitor but not in this case) can also modify the votes.

There's a fair chance that the no votes will lynch the mafia killer. Or Agatha.

Might be a good idea to spread votes equally among suspicious players?

[Jackofhearts2005]

That might also be super risky if the killer is deep.

[Epignosis]

Cataclysm?

The heroes counted themselves lucky to have escaped the awful hellscape of the Anti-Matter universe, even if it had been through the nightmare Dreamscape of the Architect. Back with the Monitor at his fortress base, they were able to take a night and relax, preparing for whatever came next.

Harriet went strolling, humming softly to herself as her cats danced and bumped her legs. Soon, she came to a large door, marked 'ARMORY'. "Oooh," she said to her cats, "I should indeed like to see some fine armour!"

Her cats meowed in protest as she tried to open the door. "Drat it all," she said, frustrated, "Why's it all locked up?" Then an idea came to her - her Monitor-enhanced powers might be just the thing! She focused her pyrokinetics on heating up the large lock, and to her delight, it soon began to melt away!

Harriet clapped her hands as she nudged the hot door open with her foot. Entering the armory, she was surprised to see that it wasn't armour at all! Instead, there were grand weapons of all types, all on display!

She could feel her heart beating faster, as she thought about the grand fires these weapons could create! Her cats yowled and hissed as her hands began to glow.

"Oh my!" cried Harriet, sparks leaping to the various rockets and grenade launchers. As they began to fire, her cats reared up and scratched her legs, fed up with her foolish ways. Harriet cried and fell to the floor, and the cats descended upon her, feral with annoyance. She shrieked as they all were immolated by the chain reaction of explosions, which blew a quarter of the Monitor's base to rubble.

NANOOK has been killed! He was Harriet, a Civilian, from Shockheaded Peter Mafia by Epignosis.

It is now Day 6. Due to the night poll result, there will be two lynches today: one regular, and one by secret vote!

[TonyStarkPrime]

So we can just kill the anti monitor now right
And use the private lynch for trying to get a Master member?
Ooh Agatha

[Epignosis]

Someone ask me something mafia related. Fuck NBA. Fuck hysteria.

JaggedJimmyJay and Turnip Head: what are their alignments?

Anti

[TonyStarkPrime]

I’m willing to bet that Nanook was not hit directly by a scum kill from the AM, so we might be able to just clear this out

[Sloonei]

Someone ask me something mafia related. Fuck NBA. Fuck hysteria.

JaggedJimmyJay and Turnip Head: what are their alignments?

Anti

Do you mean they are aligned opposite one another, or they are both anti-town? Or something else entirely?

[Sloonei]

I’m willing to bet that Nanook was not hit directly by a scum kill from the AM, so we might be able to just clear this out

That is my assumption as well. But I'm not sure what we're clearing out here.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Ah I see dissent in the ranks about the Nanook role.

[mention]Long Con[/mention]

If there were people A B C D and A is Harriet and protects B and C and D is vanilla scum and kills B and then A and D vote for C and C votes for A who gets lynched?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Oh wait yeah the AM killed last night. He’s only at +1 vote, possibly tied with someone else due to award presenter and very likely behind Agatha.

I say we have two public votes and all privately vote for the most consensus target to override mafia secret vote.

[Epignosis]

Someone ask me something mafia related. Fuck NBA. Fuck hysteria.

JaggedJimmyJay and Turnip Head: what are their alignments?

Anti

Do you mean they are aligned opposite one another, or they are both anti-town? Or something else entirely?

They're not on the same side. I was trying to be funny. Now I must pee. When I come back, I'll tell you more about what I think.

[juliets]

Why I see Jay as town:

I am not finished refreshing myself on Jay's posts but I am going to stop where I am (Night 2) and list some summary reasons why I am seeing Jay as town. I am sure I will have more as I continue on but this at least gets it started.

* Jay comes out of the shoot poking and prodding at everyone, giving opinions about their answers. He gives opinions of people outside his reads lists. He is constantly asking questions of everyone. This is a hallmark of the civ style I have seen from Jay. Imo all of these behaviors point to him hunting baddies and sharing opinions to try and start bringing together the town. He gives a reads list as early as Day 0 where he gives pluses and minuses. sig, Radish and Mac are all minuses. You only need to read a couple of pages of his ISO to see these behaviors if you want to.

* This is similar but a bit different from the first point. He not only doesn't avoid discussion about people he inserts himself in discussion or starts the discussion. He is involved in everything. And the points he makes seem to me to be thorough and I can't get inside his head but they appear thought through.

* When people town read him or say they trust him he asks for them to explain these reads. IMO he is trying to make sure people are not just throwing cheap reads out or trying to buddy him. There are others that do this, Dom and Epi to name two, and I see it as a civ behavior if done often.

* On Night 1/Day 2 he makes comments about Mac all of which are unfavorable. My point here is not that there is an in depth argument for Mac being bad but that the frequency of posts where he says unfavorable things about Mac is more than someone would do who was trying to distance. I might not have a complete list because I didn't notice the frequency at first but here is what I noted and remember this is just through Day 2:

Spoiler: show

Calls Mac weak for hanging from Jack's balls

Says Mac and his big D are aligned with mafia

Asks Jack: What do you hate most about Mac and his big D?

Says sig shitting all over Mac when he was one posted was Ace.

Says I could Lynch Mac for the crime of being irrelevant

Expands on irrelevant: only one thing he's done, parrot Jack so he had no personal accountability for nutella flip. Left in in Jack's lap.

Says "You're gonna die" when Mac asks someone to give him cliffs

Replies "This sucks" to Mac's post about Dom tunneling him

When ted defends Mac Jay challenges ted

Says he is uninspired by Mac's N1 and asks "why is Mac civilian"

TH asks "why would Mac do x,y,z as scum?" and Jay says "you have just described mafiaosco Mac"

Makes post 2652 on why Mac's reversal on nutella is not a reason to call him civ (sorry I don't know how to link it)

I say Mac is not behaving as he did in Inception where he was bad. Jay says Mac is not binary

Tells Dizzy Mac is not one of those players he would read as civ for saying he would be sad to be lynched (Dizzy asked)

Says to G-Man: ""You seem to be honoring Mac's call for help. This does not make me feel good."

* He does interactive analysis of everyone with Radish and everyone with Mac (I looked ahead to remember if he had done Mac). This is a time intensive endeavor and Jay has told us he is short of time. I don't think a scum Jay would spend this much time trying to help town.

I know you all mostly do not agree with me but this is how I see it through Day 2. I would really like to see what the case against Jay is. I know Epi thinks he sounded phony. It would be nice if someone else who thinks he is bad would explain their thoughts.

I will post more summary thoughts as I go through the rest of his posts. I may be going to bed now but I will answer any questions in the morning.

[Sloonei]

wait. Does "receive an extra three votes" mean that they are able to vote three extra times, or they have three additional votes cast against them? I interpreted it as the former. But... that's not a useful civilian power. The latter makes more sense.

[Sloonei]

Oh wait yeah the AM killed last night. He’s only at +1 vote, possibly tied with someone else due to award presenter and very likely behind Agatha.

I say we have two public votes and all privately vote for the most consensus target to override mafia secret vote.

huh?