JaggedJimmyJay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:23 am
Before I go to sleep tonight, I'm going to address this large thing niju put up against me yesterday when I was trying to show everyone the wisdom and necessity of an element lynch:
nijuukyugou wrote:http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 07#p278007
In which MP says he "doesn't know what to think of JJJ just yet" and "understands that he's busy with games." Puts him on his wishy-washy yellow list.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 08#p279108
In which MP "looks at JJJ" to come up with ISOs/analyses of everyone while MP is away.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 52#p281352
In which MP updates his rainbow list and puts JJJ in green for his interactive ISOs. Puts me in green, too, which is something that asshole does when he's bad to curry favor with me :P (You'll just have to take my word on that last point.)
Now, this is a nice visual, so I'll cut with the links:
*I've snipped the pile of quotes to shorten this post*
JJJ is always at the top of his reads lists, except at the beginning, when he "understood JJJ's busyness" and put practically everyone in yellow.
He never suspects him, ever, for anything. Not even a light suspicion. No NO-U in sight. He suspects everyone at some point, even to a small extent (myself included, when he was trying to decide whether to vote me or Nero in the crazy lynch), but never JJJ. The WIFOM is, of course, huge here: why would someone so enthusiastically endorse a teammate throughout the entire game? Flawlessly, enthusiastically agree with everything JJJ says? One might think MP didn't think he would be lynched so early, due to suspicion against another one of his teammates, and could get away with it. But I also think MP would pull that sort of gambit, as I've said before. Both he and JJJ, just to say they did it in the end. It's too perfect. It's too buddy-buddy to ignore as "buddying."
Yellow: This is untrue. On Day 1 MP gave me flak on a few occasions, I think in an attempt to earn llama's favor and perhaps generate a more negative thread climate for me and inhibit my ability to play my game freely and loosely. Some examples you didn't include or acknowledge in your pile:
MovingPictures07 wrote:JaggedJimmyJay wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Consider my "vote" rescinded.
reywaS, come out to play!
There was a moment in the early goings of the scrimmage game in which you pressed another player and then quickly abandoned it. I remember it was something that Silverwolf picked up on [accurately] in that game. This example shows you establishing a pressure scenario for Boardwalk and then leaving it behind rather quickly -- I would assert this is represents a parallel. What pleased you about the content he provided?
Not only did he come in and post, which satisfied me mostly, he contributed to the discussion:
AllAlongTheBoardwalk wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Elohcin wrote:MovingPictures07 wrote:Elohcin wrote:I bet the process gets to choose which ability he uses and maybe after he uses an ability, it is revealed?
Seems sensible.
What thoughts do you have, Elo, any? You seemed to dislike DrumBeats's declaration of swapping votes. Why?
I don't think it productive at all. It's not any better than self voting. I believe he even said it would be a way of finding a loophole. I am tired of the self voters b/c I find it a lack of participation and even more so, a hindrance to one's team whether they are civ or mafia. And I told Epi (half way through the game I just hosted) that I wish I'd have made it a rule that you cannot self vote. He liked the idea
That's understandable; it's why I created the "no self voting" rule to begin with, and I'm glad to see it catch on.
Do you really think that viewpoint has any reflection of DrumBeats's alignment, however? What is the mafia motivation for him proposing that?
That's a good question. Personally, I don't see any 'good' motivation for suggesting vote trading than other than to skate through a few votes without making a real decision. So in that respect, it seems somewhat sinister to me. However, perhaps DB is just wanting to exploit loopholes because he/she can?
I liked this post because I wanted unique content from him, which he hadn't yet provided. He provided it posthaste, and then he was on the same level as everyone else who has provided content so far. So I dropped my pressure. That's it.
What I want to know is:
1) What did you think of AATB's content?
2)
What makes you think that my pressure and swift abandoning is a mafia tell? You imply it based on your wording above, where you say Silverwolf [accurately] called me out for it in the scrimmage game. I think that's nonsense. This is something I do. Why do you think there is a mafia motivation to this behavior?
This is very much a "No U". I drew a parallel to MP's earliest voting behavior to what he did as a baddie in the champs scrimmage game, and in his response he asserted my reasoning was "nonsense" and tried to turn the line of interrogation back upon me.
MovingPictures07 wrote:I don't know what to think of JJJ just yet; I know he's busier right now and in three games so I'll try not to judge him harshly for lack of supatown, but it's inevitable to hold high expectations for him. I've found his light interrogation of me to be a bit peculiar, and I don't really understand where he's coming from at all this game. I'd like to engage with him about this game in real time because we have zero mindmeld going on right now and that's just not right.
You acknowledged the part where talks about me being busy, but you don't acknowledge the part where he is distinctly negative in his assessment of me. "I don't really understand where he's coming from at all this game" / "we have zero mindmeld going on right now" -- These are negative statements that defy the image you're painting of MP clapping me on the shoulder and supporting me all game long. Indeed, he didn't start to support me until after his attempts to throw shade at me on Day 1 failed to generate any truly negative thread climate. He had to
change his approach to me, and that's because he wasn't getting away with his initial approach.
It is true that after Day 1, MP's treatment of me became significantly more cordial. I can't know exactly what he was trying to do, but if I were to guess: he wanted to get on my good side, especially while his ability to contribute to the game dropped significantly, and he wanted to rely on my reads to push town in an unfortunate direction. This is honestly how the game developed -- many of my early reads weren't accurate other than Elohcin, and I played an influential role in mislynches that frankly allowed the baddies to overcome the loss of Elohcin. Shit happens. I credit Scotty for being the primary person to inspire a harder look at MP later in the game, and I may not have boasted much confidence in the eventual MP lynch without investigating the nutella interaction that he first brought up. It's because of these faults in my reads that any baddie would be happy to not only keep me around, but also lend me public support and encourage me to be viewed as a leader-figure. I think MP was trying to do that.
nijuukyugou wrote:I've had time to think about this, and I can see why Mac and llama, who basically had no time, had so much trouble proving JJJ's baddiness. He's done a hell of a job covering his tracks. But if you consider nothing above, brush it off as crazy-Blooper theories, consider two things: why would two civs so enthusiastically, without abandon, without regard to how they looked in the thread, go after JJJ in such a manner? They knew something, and tried to get our attention the best way they could with their posts and multiple votes from nowhere (and it did get our attention, but in the opposite manner).
This is where your case veers away from the potential for fair consideration and into the realm of manipulation. llama and Mac both clearly suspected me, the former for essentially the entire game. Why would two civilians do that? Because they genuinely thought I was bad. There's no logical necessity for "information" to exist here, and it can't exist because it's impossible. First, I'll show you why it's a logical leap to assign information to their suspicions, and second I'll show you why I don't believe you to be sincere when you propose that theory.
1a. llama does this shit. He grips onto a suspicion and he pushes it for days and days as stubbornly as anyone I've seen in Mafia. This is why I didn't really even give him much crap for that behavior until it became so late in the game that I could no longer ignore his failure to engage me fairly. Let's pay a quick visit to Downton Abbey Mafia, in which civilian llama was wrongly suspicious of civilian Epignosis without information:
thellama73 wrote:I am still pretty suspicious of Daisy, but Edith's request to move on compels me to say that I'm starting to feel bad about Epignosis. His cool, calculating style this game makes me suspect a baddie Epi.
thellama73 wrote:Matt wrote:thellama73 wrote:I'm going with Scotty again. A bit puzzled as to why the people who agreed with me yesterday have been shifting away from him.
I think it was Day 2 when Wilgy pretty much cleared Scotty, and in later posts down the line, you can see Wilgy continue to say things like "Don't lynch Scotty!"
Derp
Oh right. I'm voting for Epignosis then. I think he's playing a masterful game and playing us all for fools.
thellama73 wrote:sig wrote:Why do you think that Llama?
Matt your idea is odd, I'm mafia with Daisy since we were Pming about OT stuff? Are you mafia trying to set me up?
I'm going to look into Ika and see what I can dig up, I've got a weird gut read on him.
I have played a lot of games with Epi, and this game he seems to be very coldly calculating. Usually his calculations lead to baddie lynches, but they haven't this game. Call it a hunch, but I just don't feel good about him.
thellama73 wrote:Epignosis wrote:There's just such little participation here, it's difficult to work out anybody's opinions. I vote and make a case and people follow that.
THIS is why civilians lose. It isn't because of mechanics (most of the time) and it isn't because of balance (most of the time).
It's because civilians don't try.
Try goddamnit.
You're so bad.
thellama73 wrote:Epignosis wrote:thellama73 wrote:I do agree with Epi on one thing though, civilians need to stop blindly following him, because it has wrought nothing but civvie deaths so far.
Can't blame spacedaisy for bad lynches anymore, so you're blaming me.
You voted DFaraday, Bubbles, spacedaisy, so that's three for you, Bucko.
The main difference is that you are bad and I am not, though.
There should be some familiar language in there. llama has the tendency to assert total confidence in his reads
even when he makes no real effort to promote those reads. Moreover, he seems to have a hard time trusting vocal thread leaders. "I think he's playing a masterful game and playing us all for fools" -- the same stuff he repeatedly said about me in this game.
1b. Mac thought I was bad too, and he called me both MP's team mate
and the Process. There can be no "information", there can only be
suspicion. And he was wrong.
2. Earlier in the game, you "perceived" a separate potential reason for their behavior:
nijuukyugou wrote:No votes for mafia. On a JJJ vendetta. Methinks this stands out a bit too much for a baddie, or Process, unless there’s something we don’t know. I really, REALLY want to hear why he believes JJJ is bad, because I don’t see it, especially based on votes. It looks like a curse or screwed up win condition of some sort, reminiscent of Biblical mafia (except JJJ isn’t after llama, while llama’s after JJJ). Or he’s just fucking around.
You were willing to view his behavior from a civilian perspective, but instead of guessing at it being information, you suggested it might be a "curse". That is such a specific guess, especially when assigned to a player who would have had to carry such a "curse" for nearly the entire game to that point. I find this very telling. You saw one player who is now a confirmed townie (llama) railing hard against another player without putting forth a comprehensive case, and your guess was a "curse".
This says to me that you knew both llama and I were innocent, or at least not Camerata, and you wanted to comment on the bizarre nature of his treatment of me without drawing negative press from either of us. You created a highly specific scenario to explain his behavior in such a way that both of us could be civilians, and I think that's because you had more information than either llama or I did.
But now, in an essential end-game scenario, you return to this stuff and portray it as actual information llama/Mac might have had against me as a component of your call to lynch me -- a lynch that would end any hope of victory for the Cloudwalk faction. That's the definition of opportunism.
nijuukyugou wrote:Two, consider JJJ's plan today to go after an element instead of a baddie. I've been over this - what civilian reason would one have for doing this? The tiniest, tiniest chance, which requires trust in the mafia to go after an element instead of a civ? Not this late in the game. No way, Jose. You're just trying to buy time.
This is just plain incorrect. I laid out as clearly as I possibly could why I was pursuing the lynch of an element, even before I put up the really big post explaining it. I engaged you on this point multiple times, and each time you utterly failed to address the logic I was putting forth. Instead, you just swept everything under the rug and told me I was "just trying to buy time". So tell me:
If I am bad, and my intent is to lynch an element merely to "buy time" --
what do I gain from that? What's the point of "buying time" if the same players are all still going to be alive in the next game phase, probably carrying forward the same suspicions? This is a non-accusation entirely, it's a vague and reductionist explanation for something that I was doing for reasons you never bothered to discuss at all.
I even prompted you to explain to me what the fault was in my logic, and instead of answering that prompt you told me I was buying time. You still haven't addressed the logic I put in this thread.
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