[ENDGAME] Triskaidekaphobia Mafia

#1151

N1 I jailed INH and N2 I jailed EPI.

#1152

DrWilgy wrote:I'm the civillian Jailer. I jailed G-Man and prevented the NK.

This means that DrWilgy is only bad if G-Man is bad with him. Both or neither.

#1153

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:I'm the civillian Jailer. I jailed G-Man and prevented the NK.

This means that DrWilgy is only bad if G-Man is bad with him. Both or neither.

Where do you draw this conclusion from?

#1154

Confirmed non-vanilla roles:

~ Elohcin - paranoid mafia leader (1)

Claimed non-vanilla roles:

~ G-Man - cop (2)
>>> Scotty?

~ DrWilgy - jailkeeper (3)

----

It can work if Scotty is vanilla something.

#1155

DrWilgy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:I'm the civillian Jailer. I jailed G-Man and prevented the NK.

This means that DrWilgy is only bad if G-Man is bad with him. Both or neither.
Where do you draw this conclusion from?

If G-Man abstained the night kill, you're the team mate providing the "explanation".

Actually it might not work both ways.

If DrWilgy is bad, G-Man is almost certainly bad too.

If G-Man is bad, it's technically not as certain that DrWilgy must also be bad. You could be a civ jailer who just blocked G-Man's kill.

At the moment I think it's more likely you're both town.

#1156

Who else have you jailed in this game, Wilgy?

#1157

Out of the 3 roles... We only know 2.

Gman was never the cop.

I already stated that I jailed INH and Epi. Neither of which prevented any noticeable actions. (hence my trust of both of them. I never wanted to vote INH.)

#1158

DrWilgy wrote:Out of the 3 roles... We only know 2.

Gman was never the cop.

I already stated that I jailed INH and Epi. Neither of which prevented any noticeable actions. (hence my trust of both of them. I never wanted to vote INH.)

Derp.

What makes you think G-Man is not the cop?

#1159

Does your jailing someone only act as a role block or does it protect the person you are jailing as well.

#1160

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:Out of the 3 roles... We only know 2.

Gman was never the cop.

I already stated that I jailed INH and Epi. Neither of which prevented any noticeable actions. (hence my trust of both of them. I never wanted to vote INH.)
Derp.

What makes you think G-Man is not the cop?

Jailed him > No kill > he's bad
I can't say more according to the host.

Unless mafia abstained I see no reason how this would happen.

It's only an action block.

#1161

DrWilgy wrote:It's only an action block.

Please check your role card again to be absolutely sure. Every jailer/jailkeeper I've ever seen is both a roleblocker and a protector simultaneously. It's supposed to be ambiguous.

#1162

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:It's only an action block.
Please check your role card again to be absolutely sure. Every jailer/jailkeeper I've ever seen is both a roleblocker and a protector simultaneously. It's supposed to be ambiguous.

Only a role block. Host was specific.

#1163

DrWilgy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:It's only an action block.
Please check your role card again to be absolutely sure. Every jailer/jailkeeper I've ever seen is both a roleblocker and a protector simultaneously. It's supposed to be ambiguous.
Only a role block. Host was specific.

Ugh. lol I feel like it's a proper jailer role even if you weren't told that. Otherwise why not just call you a "roleblocker" or a "blocker"

#1164

I'd vote G-Man today, but I'm also open to leaving my vote as it is as an alternative lynch. People don't seem to be interested in my case against rabbit. Why is this?

There's not enough room for all these roles. Cutting out G-Man as the cop makes sense to me and allows for everything to fit. I don't think Scotty is indie and I believe everything Wilgy has said so far, he's bread crumbed his actions throughout the thread.

#1165

This all makes perfect sense if you are a proper jailer, Wilgy. G-Man would be roleblocked, and the attempt to kill him would fail.

#1166

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:G-Man: you peeked S~V~S to be sure before lynching her.

I would have expected you to peek me on Night 2 after my spat with Epignosis and your visible leaning in his favor even if you didn't commit entirely. Why didn't you peek me?

Because I wanted to spread a wide net. You seemed likely to be lynched the next day, so I decided to expand my knowledge base. If it hadn't been a red peek, your lynch would have me up two players instead of just one. If Eloh had flipped civ, I'd have been all in favor of lynching you.

This is where I have to leave you for the night. My sister-in-law is getting married this weekend and I have to help my wife (matron of honor) with her toast. I stepped in it today with her. She was anticipating a response along the lines of "oh that's great honey" but what she got was the speech contest-winning former Toastmaster in me told her everything that needed improvement. She waited until the week of the wedding but now a less-than-excellent toast is somehow my fault.

Linki: If Wilgy is telling the truth about jailing me, then the baddies may have targeted me, which means they can't target me Night 4 unless the host allows double-targeting.

4.07

#1167

Quin wrote:There's not enough room for all these roles.

There is though.

#1168

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:There's not enough room for all these roles.
There is though.

Eloh as a redirecting mafia
G-Man as the cop
Wilgy as the action-only jailer
And a doctor

Am I counting this wrong?

#1169

Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:There's not enough room for all these roles.
There is though.
Eloh as a redirecting mafia
G-Man as the cop
Wilgy as the action-only jailer
And a doctor

Am I counting this wrong?

Nobody claimed doctor. The other three can account for everything.

#1170

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:There's not enough room for all these roles.
There is though.
Eloh as a redirecting mafia
G-Man as the cop
Wilgy as the action-only jailer
And a doctor

Am I counting this wrong?
Nobody claimed doctor. The other three can account for everything.

I don't believe that the mafia abstained from killing last night. If Wilgy's role is closer to a roleblockers role in that it doesn't protect him, then I don't see how nobody died last night.

#1171

Quin wrote:If Wilgy's role is closer to a roleblockers role in that it doesn't protect him, then I don't see how nobody died last night.

I don't think a role is called "jailer" if it fits this description. Either Wilgy is misunderstanding his role card, or Rico withheld a detail intentionally. Everything falls perfectly into place if it's a standard jailer.

#1172

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:If Wilgy's role is closer to a roleblockers role in that it doesn't protect him, then I don't see how nobody died last night.
I don't think a role is called "jailer" if it fits this description. Either Wilgy is misunderstanding his role card, or Rico withheld a detail intentionally. Everything falls perfectly into place if it's a standard jailer.

Let's hold back on lynching G-Man until we have more information. Vote rabbit with me.

#1173

I looked up jailer. It isn't "role blocker," and in every instance I've seen something like a "jailer" around here, it meant silence and prevent from voting, or some such thing. I have never seen block and protect (which makes sense for its name) here. I am skeptical of this claim.

#1174

Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:If Wilgy's role is closer to a roleblockers role in that it doesn't protect him, then I don't see how nobody died last night.
I don't think a role is called "jailer" if it fits this description. Either Wilgy is misunderstanding his role card, or Rico withheld a detail intentionally. Everything falls perfectly into place if it's a standard jailer.
Let's hold back on lynching G-Man until we have more information. Vote rabbit with me.

I think S~V~S is the surer baddie between the two.

There's still a lot to sort out. rabbit and S~V~S themselves should state their perspectives too. I am annoyed to be so confused right now, this is not the Day 4 I envisioned.

#1175

Epignosis wrote:I have never seen block and protect (which makes sense for its name) here.

I've never seen anything else.

#1176

Epignosis wrote:I looked up jailer. It isn't "role blocker," and in every instance I've seen something like a "jailer" around here, it meant silence and prevent from voting, or some such thing. I have never seen block and protect (which makes sense for its name) here. I am skeptical of this claim.

All the games I've played where jailers have appeared have been a blocking+protecting combo.

#1177

The proper jailkeeper has existed before on The Syndicate.

Link

#1178

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:The proper jailkeeper has existed before on The Syndicate.

Link

I was killed as soon as I replaced in, so I never followed it.

#1179

Who was bad in that besides MP?

#1180

Epignosis wrote:Who was bad in that besides MP?

Inawordyes, ika, sig

#1181

I cannot reconcile the term "jailer" being used when the actual role is blocker only. So for simplicity, I'm going to use the terminology that fits.

There was no kill.
G-Man got no role check.

Wilgy claims he "jailed" G-Man, whereas G-Man said he was told he was "blocked."

One of them is bad.

#1182

This is what my brain is telling me:

1. G-Man is a cop who attempted to peek S~V~S.
2. The baddies targeted G-Man with a kill.
3. DrWilgy jailed G-Man, preventing both 1 and 2 from occurring.

I think it's typical for a player who has been jailed to be told he is "blocked" (if he's told anything at all) instead of being told he was "jailed". The general purpose of a jailer role is to add ambiguity to a scenario in which a night kill fails -- town cannot know for sure whether the jailed player was the killer or the target of the kill. That ambiguity is somewhat compromised if the target is able to specifically declare "yes, I was informed that I was jailed", because then even he can discount the potential the the claimed jailer is actually a mafia roleblocker or some such.

#1183

So your brain is telling you n00b h0st?

#1184

DrWilgy, please ask Rico for clarification on your role. I just don't believe you are a "jailer" who does nothing but roleblock. That doesn't have to mean you're lying.

#1185

I have seen a couple examples of hosts telling players they've been blocked in my day (blocked by whatever means). I don't believe I've ever seen an example of a player being told they've been jailed.

Usually it's neither, but I'm not Rico so yanno.

#1186

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:DrWilgy, please ask Rico for clarification on your role. I just don't believe you are a "jailer" who does nothing but roleblock. That doesn't have to mean you're lying.

I'll ask.

#1187

Purely in an off-topic fashion:

As far as I've seen, "Jailkeeper" and "jailer" pretty much always = role block + protect (doctor).

#1188

Wilgy, why did you elect to jail G-Man instead of someone else? If you distrusted him, then clarify why you distrusted him.

#1189

MovingPictures07 wrote:Purely in an off-topic fashion:

As far as I've seen, "Jailkeeper" and "jailer" pretty much always = role block + protect (doctor).

I have also seen jailers that get BTS with their subject, sometimes Jailer also means "silence". It can vary. When I have had one when I host, it is BTS & block.

Rico, does the target know s/he has been jailed?

Also, since they are changeable, I am voting for G Man. I don;t believe a word he says tbh. He has zero issues with strategically bussing a teammate, and that is what I think he did with Eloh.

#1190

S~V~S wrote:
Rico, does the target know s/he has been jailed?

I'm afraid I can't answer that.

#1191

Quin wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Quin wrote:If Wilgy's role is closer to a roleblockers role in that it doesn't protect him, then I don't see how nobody died last night.
I don't think a role is called "jailer" if it fits this description. Either Wilgy is misunderstanding his role card, or Rico withheld a detail intentionally. Everything falls perfectly into place if it's a standard jailer.
Let's hold back on lynching G-Man until we have more information. Vote rabbit with me.

Okay, at this point. I will, maybe. I'm obviously bad.

I have been called to the field guys. We had a really bad failure that I had to personally go and take care of with the client. I think it's all cleared up and I will be able to contribute more on Friday. Haven't really read much since Tuesday.

#1192

im in the process of moving. I apologize for my absence.

Who should I vote? This is quite uncharacteristic of me, but I am behind, about to take off on a flight, and am a free agent right now.

#1193

Scotty wrote:im in the process of moving. I apologize for my absence.

Who should I vote? This is quite uncharacteristic of me, but I am behind, about to take off on a flight, and am a free agent right now.

Barring any further developments, I plan on voting for SVS. I think there is a lot of evidence pointing her way.

4.08

#1194

Barren and silent this day has become. *watches tumbleweed roll by*

I want to get a feel for where everyone is at and lay out my thoughts as well. I will have to vote tomorrow by noon (EST) before I head to D.C. for the wedding. If you guys lynch me, oh well. With no kill last night, our odds got a little bit better and a few people have made claims that might help things make a little more sense.

Here is who I trust and don't trust right now:

G-MAN'S CIRCLE OF TRUST:

DrWilgy
Him coming forward as a jailer (and some questions to the host) helped bring some clarity to what we might be dealing with. The combination of what Ricochet explained regarding what he views as non-vanilla (powers/abilities that have an outward effect) and Wilgy's claim as the jailer (a role that I too am used to doing more than locking someone up for just the night), our three power roles may now be known to all of us. I wondered if he was being sneaky and picking up the work sig did as a cop protector but every other part of his game feels legit to me. His early vote on me could have been opportunistic of a baddie but that was before we got into our Q&A session. I trust him because trusting him and his claim helps make sense of it all.

Epignosis
His picking apart of JJJ's logic after I called him out on faking a peek reminded me of how he tore into every facet of my logic after Polo called me out on instinct in BSG. I'm sure he's capable of doing it as a baddie but I think he would have demanded I be killed Night 2. He's too perceptive to let that slide. In a game this small, killing the cop early is a difference-maker. I can't even imagine that Eloh would overrule him on something like that.

G-Man
Obvious, right? I have been as honest and forthcoming with you guys as the host will allow. I hope you consider all of the information laid out and theorized since the night post.

JaggedJimmyJay
Same reasons- JJJ would have demanded me dead Night 2. While I am glad that my calling you out led to events that may have broken this game wide open, I'm sorry it almost got you railroaded by Epignosis. I think you guys got into an ego and logic clash of the titans. Neither one of you are the stand-down type. Sorry for the mess, but look where it brought us?

Quin
His tone, line of questioning, and sincerity all adds up to a civ read on my spreadsheet. If you have fooled me, I tip my hat to you.

UNEASY BUT UNCERTAIN:

Scotty
I know what role information I was given for you. It was a little spooky. In light of Wilgy's claim, however, I don't see you as an active threat to the civvies. If you are a survivor role, then you already know that siding with the baddies is foolish at this point. You're in this category solely because I believe my peek that you are an indy.

SUSPICIOUS

rabbit8
I liked his early pressure on SVS but it got him hung up in a little tunnel vision. It could have been distancing because SVS more or less brushed his suspicions aside like they were no big concern to her. His Day 1 vote is hard to read into. Day 2, he tied the poll by voting INH. He was the last to vote, so we were bound to analyze his decision anyway. Thing is, we didn't. His vote could have been suicidal, being the first baddie to make a scene to give teammates something to hide behind. Otherwise, he looks like a late vote on a JJJ mislynch or he votes sideways, looking even worse. Hard to say for sure. His participation has been sporadic as real life gets in the way, which could factor in to that Polo kill.

Spacedaisy
I keep her here despite her claim of an indy role for a few reasons. First, Eloh listed Daisy as one of two desperation green peeks. The other was JJJ. She also listed her suspicions as me, rabbit, and SVS. Why not split the difference and put one teammate on each list? Maybe this is something we can dissect. Eloh giving her a bogus green peek can be brushed aside as something to ignore completely or it could mean she put Daisy on that list for the psychology of it. If a baddie is exposed and says "Player X is a civ" then we might suspect them of being a teammate. But once that happens often enough, baddies do it to set civvies up and we assume that baddies don't try it anymore because we got used to looking for baddie teammates in such lists. So Eloh says Daisy is civ and Daisy also comes out and proclaims she is an indy role. This could be legit or it could be done to make my thorny situation look even worse by countering one of my peeks. She was a later vote on Vompatti Day 1, a mid-pack self-vote Day 2, and a mid-pack follower on Eloh Day 3.

S~V~S
I've spoken at length about her before. Her absence during the Polo NK decision, her lack of fight early on, etc. Eloh also listed her as a suspect and provided a weak profile of her game. She voted late on the Vompatti train Day 1, cast a late sideways vote on me Day 2, and a mid-pack vote on Eloh Day 3. Could it all be a coincidence and real life just took her out of this one? Sure. That doesn't stop my spreadsheet from screaming baddie though.

What say you?

4.09

#1195

Something comes to mind:

G-Man said he was "blocked" before Wilgy claimed to be a jailer. If G-Man is bad and his night kill was prevented, then this means he took a pointless risk by predicting the cause of his kill failing. He wouldn't know whether he was blocked or jailed, or whether his kill target was protected or jailed (or any other possibilities). If he's bad, he doesn't know what happened and he has to allow the game to sort that out for him. Instead, he immediately claimed he was specifically "blocked", which is a true reflection of what would happen if he was "jailed" as a cop.

I doubt G-Man is bad. I doubt Wilgy is bad. This is a miscommunication. I'll wait for Wilgy's update on his role, but I really don't think another option is terribly likely. Even apart from all the confusion, I think both of them appear quite town at face value.

#1196

G-Man wrote:Scotty
I know what role information I was given for you. It was a little spooky. In light of Wilgy's claim, however, I don't see you as an active threat to the civvies. If you are a survivor role, then you already know that siding with the baddies is foolish at this point. You're in this category solely because I believe my peek that you are an indy.

What do you think of my bonkers theory that Scotty is actually the baddie team mate of Elohcin who may have been "programmed" or otherwise incited to betray her? I think an independent check makes some sense in that scenario, as would his abject rejection of your peek.

G-Man wrote:rabbit8
I liked his early pressure on SVS but it got him hung up in a little tunnel vision. It could have been distancing because SVS more or less brushed his suspicions aside like they were no big concern to her. His Day 1 vote is hard to read into. Day 2, he tied the poll by voting INH. He was the last to vote, so we were bound to analyze his decision anyway. Thing is, we didn't. His vote could have been suicidal, being the first baddie to make a scene to give teammates something to hide behind. Otherwise, he looks like a late vote on a JJJ mislynch or he votes sideways, looking even worse. Hard to say for sure. His participation has been sporadic as real life gets in the way, which could factor in to that Polo kill.

Among your suspects, I think rabbit has appeared the most overtly town. He's capable of putting on the facade I am sure. When we return to the Day 2 tied lynch, my initial reaction is to give him a little credit for forcing the tie with INH, because there's no way he can look "good" in that scenario when it is civ-civ and that makes me think it was more likely to be his genuine preference. I'll admit though that some part of me wonders if he meant to keep me alive, or try to in a tie, so that I could be an easy lynch later in the game.

If so, he doesn't know me.

G-Man wrote:Spacedaisy
I keep her here despite her claim of an indy role for a few reasons. First, Eloh listed Daisy as one of two desperation green peeks. The other was JJJ. She also listed her suspicions as me, rabbit, and SVS. Why not split the difference and put one teammate on each list? Maybe this is something we can dissect. Eloh giving her a bogus green peek can be brushed aside as something to ignore completely or it could mean she put Daisy on that list for the psychology of it. If a baddie is exposed and says "Player X is a civ" then we might suspect them of being a teammate. But once that happens often enough, baddies do it to set civvies up and we assume that baddies don't try it anymore because we got used to looking for baddie teammates in such lists. So Eloh says Daisy is civ and Daisy also comes out and proclaims she is an indy role. This could be legit or it could be done to make my thorny situation look even worse by countering one of my peeks. She was a later vote on Vompatti Day 1, a mid-pack self-vote Day 2, and a mid-pack follower on Eloh Day 3.

I actually think Elohcin green peeking her is a positive reflection on her. When Elohcin provided that cop counterclaim (which I maintain was not a joke), she needed to get at least someone in her camp to support her. She couldn't really expect my help by green peeking me after she had been so blatant in her opportunism against me on Day 2, and given my immediate positive reaction to your own cop claim. I think she might have been trying to earn Daisy's support, which she did not end up receiving. I also don't get the vibe that Daisy's independent claim is bogus.

If one of the people in the independence controversy is bullshitting, I think it's more likely to be the one who isn't owning up to it (Scotty).

G-Man wrote:S~V~S
I've spoken at length about her before. Her absence during the Polo NK decision, her lack of fight early on, etc. Eloh also listed her as a suspect and provided a weak profile of her game. She voted late on the Vompatti train Day 1, cast a late sideways vote on me Day 2, and a mid-pack vote on Eloh Day 3. Could it all be a coincidence and real life just took her out of this one? Sure. That doesn't stop my spreadsheet from screaming baddie though.

Most likely baddie on the board, I agree. She's easier to associate with the Polo kill than anyone living, her relative absence would explain why she might have missed your cop-inclined posts on Day 2, and I don't think she has made any posts that smell like a townie's posts.

#1197

Throwing a vote on S~V~S.

#1198

S~V~S wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I voted for Eloh. Since she appears to be bad for sure, why backburner her?
B/c I just wanted to see how gullible you all were in a game where infodumping is allowed.

You are willing to get lynched as a civ over an opportunity to laugh at how gullible the rest of us are?

Linki, I have barely read the thread, and I am the suck at hints for the most part. I read into what people say, I don't spend a lot of time on surface questions. One of the reason I don't like playing games with hints allowed.

This tiny tiff is the only thing keeping me from thinking S~V~S is bad.

#1199

I think that looks bad because she was actually entertaining the notion that Elohcin might be a civilian based upon the most obvious lie in the thread (the one she was responding to with the three laughter emojis).

#1200

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think that looks bad because she was actually entertaining the notion that Elohcin might be a civilian based upon the most obvious lie in the thread (the one she was responding to with the three laughter emojis).

S~V~S would respond that way though. Perhaps I'm reading that exchange incorrectly.