Suggestion for sitewide standard of rules for Mafia games

[tutuu]

Suggestion for sitewide standard definition of what's angleshooting, OGI, punishment, compensation, etc

Open-ended community discussion. I propose a sitewide standard set of rules that should be applied to all games by default. These rules ought to be linked by every host in their game, both in the sign-up thread and in the OP of the thread. Hosts should have the right to remove/add/change any of these rules, but they need to be explicit and specific.

Please, give your thoughts, suggestions, concerns, etc:

Here are my suggestions:

"Angleshooting" is the act of doing something unsportsmanlike. An angleshot/dirty/OGI read or speculation is something that you have acquired outside from the in-game mafia thread from all the players, in the way the game is supposed to be played, but in another way, outside from the game thread and/or from the host.

1. You should not mention that you have angleshooty/OGI reads. You should never mention the word "angleshoot" in a post period. If you attain one, make up another reason to justify the read or speculation, something that's tied to in-game stuff that other people can engage with. If you claim that "I have a dirty read on X and I can't say why" - nobody can engage with this, and I don't believe it's fair. Or rather, it's inconvenient for scum players to have to start saying they have dirty reads from time to time in their repertoaire in order to balance things out. It takes away from the Mafia experience imo if a balanced metagame would be when both factions end up saying they have inexplainable dirty reads from tiem to time. And the mafia can't naturally attain dirty angleshoot reads since they already have TMI. So I think the better variant of balanced metagame is if nobody can talk about it. Do not respond to other people mentioning anything regarding angleshooting, because things can have a domino effect. Just alert the mod and pretend the post doesn't exist

2. Hosts should not respond to people's posts in the thread. Some hosts can be unintentionally biased to respond to setup related questions to members of the town who genuinely dont understand the setup, but if a member of the mafia tries to fake a derp clear or something, or feign ignorance about setup related thing, the host might be biased because they know that person is feigning the ignorance and forget to respond to it. The host, if they wish to interact with the players in their game, needs to constantly remind themselves that they shouldn't have TMI. I think slip-ups can happen as a result of this, so I don't believe hosts should ever directly respond to posts. If they wish to answer or say anything they should publicly say, without quoting any posts:

"Question: bla bla bla"
"Answer: bla bla bla"

And remind people not to interact with the post.

3. The players should not interact with the host ITT in any way. They should not ping them with questions, they should ask privately. The reasoning is that discord is widely used for mafia chats, and a lot of people, i think, find it more convenient to type out a quick question there in wolf chat where they might be spending a lot of time regardless, than to get on the forum and ping the host there. From the way host and player talk ITT it is also possible to generate angleshooty reads. So I believe player/host public communication should be banned.

4. Do not refer to mod communication. That's obvious, but:

5. When having to refer to mod communication because you have no other choice (for instance, you need to ask the host on clarification on your role): Do not say "I asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that". If you repeatedly casually mention the host and the way you talked to them and what you asked them your tone/your sentence structure can generate OGI reads. Do not say that you asked the host anything. But the biggest part is the timing of you saying this itt. Let's say a scum player dies, and their role PM flips something unexpected. If a player were to say "I just asked tutuu and she told me this and this and that about this scum flip" - then that player is angleshooting themselves as town imo, because mafia are likely to already know the information about this scum flip, and they wouldn't ask the host right now. So that player is town who is angleshooting themselves town, or if they're mafia, they're consciously trying to get themselves townread based off of people thinking that - oh hey, this person asked the host, it means they are town. This whole thing devolves from the Mafia experience, this isn't Mafia.
So instead, you should say "I was told that blah blah blah" - hosts giving clarifications themselves, regardless of whether or not prompted by a question seem more safe to me / I think there is less danger of dirty reads being generated.

6. Do not mention ongoing games, do not interact with them in any way shape or form. Even if you're dead in one, if that game is not completed, pretend that it does not exist.

i got tired of writing, i have more to say about compensation, modkills, etc. just this for now

[Syn]

copy-pasting and editing from the game thread:

I think these suggestions should be numbered instead of bullet-pointed.

Some of this seems like language policing which won't work IMO, like the whole referring to mod info thing at the end just doesn't parse for me. Making it a rule that someone has to say "I was told x" instead of "I was told x by the host" doesn't move the needle at all and just makes it murkier, not clearer. I think there should be a total ban on host involvement by players or no ban at all. Like your previous suggestion that players should not interact with the host ITT is solid, and is compatible with a rule that says players can't relay host info shared privately either. No conveying of private info whatsoever, and hosts should probably be recommended to not share elaborations privately either. If it's relevant to the game state, the info should only be shared as a general post by the host and not privately to an enterprising player who thought of asking.

Personally, I really like interactions between players and hosts, so my preference is towards no ban or policing on the host/player communication front, but I wouldn't be opposed to a total ban on it and would be fine with abiding with a rule like that.

[Hally]

all of that stuff is pretty standard and i was under the impression it already was the rules?

[Hally]

copy-pasting and editing from the game thread:

I think these suggestions should be numbered instead of bullet-pointed.

Some of this seems like language policing which won't work IMO, like the whole referring to mod info thing at the end just doesn't parse for me. Making it a rule that someone has to say "I was told x" instead of "I was told x by the host" doesn't move the needle at all and just makes it murkier, not clearer. I think there should be a total ban on host involvement by players or no ban at all. Like your previous suggestion that players should not interact with the host ITT is solid, and is compatible with a rule that says players can't relay host info shared privately either. No conveying of private info whatsoever, and hosts should probably be recommended to not share elaborations privately either. If it's relevant to the game state, the info should only be shared as a general post by the host and not privately to an enterprising player who thought of asking.

Personally, I really like interactions between players and hosts, so my preference is towards no ban or policing on the host/player communication front, but I wouldn't be opposed to a total ban on it and would be fine with abiding with a rule like that.

it’s pretty standard imo for players to not be able to refer to communication they have with the host itt

in general players should pretend the host doesn’t exist when posting itt because host communication is outside the scope of the game

[Syn]

on my homesite host communication happened in basically every game, so understand that I'm working from a different cultural bias on that front

I do realize that elsewhere it's usually frowned upon. When I've hosted on MU, I didn't know what the consensus was, so I opted to be a pretty distant host.

[Hally]

on my homesite host communication happened in basically every game, so understand that I'm working from a different cultural bias on that front

I do realize that elsewhere it's usually frowned upon. When I've hosted on MU, I didn't know what the consensus was, so I opted to be a pretty distant host.

i think having players be able to talk with the host privately is perfectly fine but i would say referring to that communication itt shouldnt be allowed

[MartinGG99]

all of that stuff is pretty standard and i was under the impression it already was the rules?

It is not, apparently. A lot of TS rule stuff is under the authority of host discretion, and I just ran a Rackets game with some parts of the rules being left as "you can expect typical rules" or something like that. Which is a bad recipe because the "typical rules" are established by what could be called as cultural convention here on The Syndicate rather than anything else.

This discussion originated in regards to me modkilling a player who

1) Didn't explicitly break the rules I set up, or any other rule on the site

2) Had a different understanding of the word "Angleshooting" than I did, and used the word "Angleshot"

We've already have had plenty of discussion in the mafia channel of the Syndicate discord about it, but now we're trying to discuss rules or something we can do to prevent something like that from happening again. Maybe something standardized will come to fruition.

[Hally]

generally the rule of thumb is like

players should only be read based on actions that have happened within the confines of the game thread (and any host approved btsc) because that’s what’s accessible to everyone as part of the sphere of the game

and private host communication is outside that bubble, so it shouldn’t be brought into the bubble by getting talked about itt because nobody should be able to make reads on something from outside the bubble

this is just my two cents though

[Hally]

all of that stuff is pretty standard and i was under the impression it already was the rules?

It is not, apparently. A lot of TS rule stuff is under the authority of host discretion, and I just ran a Rackets game with some parts of the rules being left as "you can expect typical rules" or something like that. Which is a bad recipe because the "typical rules" are established by what could be called as cultural convention here on The Syndicate rather than anything else.

This discussion originated in regards to me modkilling a player who

1) Didn't explicitly break the rules I set up, or any other rule on the site

2) Had a different understanding of the word "Angleshooting" than I did, and used the word "Angleshot"

We've already have had plenty of discussion in the mafia channel of the Syndicate discord about it, but now we're trying to discuss rules or something we can do to prevent something like that from happening again. Maybe something standardized will come to fruition.

oh i see

well it’s definitely the standard rules on MU but idk if the syndicate has any standard rules on the matter

if not (as it appears) i think it would be a good idea to have a standard set of rules rather than leave it up to the host

this way every player knows exactly whats allowed when they play here and what’s expected of them so no such misunderstandings can occur

and if hosts want to add rules at their discretion they should be allowed to do so (like no role claiming or something)

but i think there should be a baseline set of rules that’s constant throughout every games for sure

otherwise you run into problems like you did where there will be miscommunication between hosts and players about what the rules actually are and it’s hard to enforce them when you can’t assume that every player knows what’s expected of them

[Sloonei]

We are discussing this.

[Hally]

thanks

[Thunal33]

The problem I have with a ban on mentioning the word "angleshoot" or saying I have an angleshooty read on someone is that rarely I do get angleshooty reads and as a villager I feel like I shouldn't have to lie by making up a fake reason for my pivot on a player when it's really for angleshooty reasons. The benefits to a ban might outweigh the harm though, since tunneling someone based on "I have an angleshooty read" can be extremely frustrating on both sides and it's not really fair that the tunnelee can't defend themselves.

The rest of this I completely agree with though. Host communication/clarification should be done privately in all games.

[tutuu]

We are discussing this.

@Sloonei also, i didnt include anything about forbidden infodumping and roleclaiming since its not something i would ever put in my games, however, it is something a lot of old school syndicators seem to love. so i think clarifications and rules on that should also be written, with specific quotes that set the boundaries of acceptable and unacceptable hinting / infodumping

for instance, in my eyes, an ideal ruleset would have something like this:

lets say you're a cop and have a red peek but you're forbidden from info dumping

"I think X is scum. Trust me guys and vote him" - this is acceptable

"I think X is scum. Trust me guys and vote him. I can't speak for the reason" - this is unacceptable in my mind, it clearly hints at mech info, assuming its publicly stated that info dumping is disallowed

"I think X is scum for raisins" - this, in my mind, is debatable. 50/50. i think arguments can be made on both ends on whether or not this post violates a no infodumping rule

something like that. have some specific example posts to show the desired result of "infodumping forbidden" in the sitewide ruleset, and then urge hosts additionaly on top of that to make their own specific example posts in their sign-up theads and their OPs so that its as clear as possible. since this thing is very subjective i think there needs to be a lot of clarity or else it just doesnt work and host intervention becomes necessary (for example, your own two games sloonei, simpsons and radiohead)

[Hally]

The problem I have with a ban on mentioning the word "angleshoot" or saying I have an angleshooty read on someone is that rarely I do get angleshooty reads and as a villager I feel like I shouldn't have to lie by making up a fake reason for my pivot on a player when it's really for angleshooty reasons. The benefits to a ban might outweigh the harm though, since tunneling someone based on "I have an angleshooty read" can be extremely frustrating on both sides and it's not really fair that the tunnelee can't defend themselves.

The rest of this I completely agree with though. Host communication/clarification should be done privately in all games.

i see what you’re saying here but i do think the benefit of a ban still outweighs the negative

imo if you don’t have a non-angleshot justification for having a read or can’t come up with one it’s probably not a read you should have in the first place

like if i had a read that someone was angleshot town and i genuinely thought they were a villager i don’t think it would be difficult to find a reason why and if i couldn’t make an argument that they’re a villager based on their posts instead of angleshooting that would be a red flag to me that i should maybe reconsider if it’s a good idea to have that angleshoot read

[Sloonei]

I do not speak on behalf of the entire admin/community team here, but these are my thoughts as both someone who is an administrator here and a member of the community with lots of mafia experience. I’m refraining from commenting on anything specific for now.

One of my favorite things about the Syndicate is that it’s always been a place that allows hosts to get creative, to experiment with game design and mechanics. To help foster that environment, we have never set out to clearly define many rules for hosts to follow. We have community rules about behavior, conflict resolution, and respecting one another. But as for the game itself, our standard policy has always been to leave the game to the individual host. Leaving things to host’s discretion helps to ensure that the person designing the game can be comfortable with the amount of control they have over their own product. That said, once a game becomes active, the hose cedes some (most) of that control over to the players. The best thing a host can do, then, is to be as comfortable as possible with their game prior to its start.

We do have a post laying out some general Hosting Guidelines provided by Epignosis, and I would encourage everyone to look at that, both for the present discussion and for future hosting experiences if needed. We can make updates to that post to reflect the shape of how mafia is played today, both on the Syndicate and elsewhere. But I would not expect any sweeping changes or firmly dictated rules about what hosts can or cannot allow in their games (beyond the scope of our community rules).

That said, I like that this conversation is happening and want it to continue. It promotes new ideas and increased awareness of the delicate ways that the balance and integrity of a game can be swayed by simple accidents of decisions. I personally would not object to adding certain “guidelines of consideration” in the post I linked above to help prospective hosts consider issues like “angleshooting” or unintentional host information appearing in the thread. But I would hesitate to try to concretely define those things in any sweeping sense for the purpose of outlawing them. That becomes a slippery and ambiguous slope. But these are definitely issues that impact the game and we owe it to ourselves as a community to be aware of them.

[Epignosis]

That hosting guideline page is from the earliest days of the site, so while some of it still holds currency, other bits are remarkably outdated (see the section on info-dumping).

I will copy (and then modify) something I said in the moderators' discussion thread this afternoon:

Angle shooting is a poker term (in case you didn't know), that often involves manipulating the dealer in order to get an advantage on your opponents. One example is making an ambiguous motion with your hand, the dealer claims you checked, you get a reaction from your opponents, and then quickly clarify that you were not in fact checking. It's one of those things that isn't explicitly against the rules, but violates the spirit of the game rather than the letter of the law.

Getting modkilled for breaking a rule isn't the same thing as angle shooting, since angle shooting doesn't involve breaking a rule.

I think the most sensible recommendation is for the host to specify what is and is not permitted in the rules. One duty of hosting is determining the unambiguous rules of your game and then enforcing them fairly. "No angle shooting" can never fit this criteria.

[tutuu]

I believe that the combination of

"We want to leave things to the host's discretion"

And

"The host needs to specify more stuff than simply "No angleshooting allowed". It falls on them to make it clear"

is a very unpleasant one.

You are basically asking the hosts to write a whole ruleset for themselves every game, or am I misunderstanding your posts?

[Epignosis]

I believe that the combination of

"We want to leave things to the host's discretion"

And

"The host needs to specify more stuff than simply "No angleshooting allowed". It falls on them to make it clear"

is a very unpleasant one.

You are basically asking the hosts to write a whole ruleset for themselves every game, or am I misunderstanding your posts?

I think you are.

Part of game design is making the rules of the game and enforcing them fairly. We have a few non-negotiables here at The Syndicate. Some of these stem from the ancient commandment, "Don't be an asshat." Many other rules follow from the basic rules of Mafia ("No unauthorized BTSC," "No editing or deleting of posts.") Outside of these principal...principles, it is the duty of the host to ensure the rules provide the framework for an equitable game.

Regarding the second statement you named, the very concept of angle shooting involves NOT breaking a rule, but doing something underhanded to gain an advantage. There are dozens and dozens of possibilities that could fall under that category, and I daresay that even seasoned poker players angle shoot from time to time (hell, stacking your chips a certain way can be perceived as angle shooting. For real.). Angle shooting is something to be discouraged and frowned upon. Poker players who frequently engage in such practices become regarded as seedy and unethical and eventually unwelcome. But if you break a rule, you aren't angle shooting. You're breaking a rule. Therefore "No angle shooting" is an empty rule.

My main point was that hosts should be as clear, straightforward, and unambiguous in crafting their rules as possible. It doesn't mean they need to imagine every single undesirable scenario and write it up. I think an admirable goal is to design a game (not just the rules of the game) in which angle shooting is damn near impossible.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Some of the language stuff especially is fairly draconian imo.

[tutuu]

@Epignosis alright, thanks for clearing it up

I completely agree that hosts should be clear, straightforward, and unambiguous in defining their rules.

So how about, for quality of life, for the sake of convenience, have some sitewide list of rules (doesnt need to be the same ones i wrote in the OP, but something of this nature) that the majority of syndicate players agree are good rules, and have them be something as default, something to lean back on in case hosts are lazy / new to mafia.

I have played mafia here for half a year and the majority of games have barely anything written in them about the rules

So, like, i cant just PM every host and ask them "hey dude, could u please make ur rules more specific and detailed?"

Like, (from my understaning of what sloonei said), he is not opposed to some guidelines being written in a hosting thread that ppl need to look up themselves

But whats the problem with respectfully stuffing those gudelines in peoples faces, both hosts and players?

Like instead of blaming it on the host if theres a loophole in their rules, is it not strictly better to have a safety net of standard set of rules?

[Hally]

the thing is, i feel like if you leave it entirely up to hosts what is and is not angleshooting or against the rules, it becomes like tutuu said where you’re essentially asking each host to lay out an entire framework for what they think is crossing the line and what’s not

and asking hosts to do that i feel is a bit much

and if hosts don’t do that and spell out exactly what they consider angleshooting or against the rules and what they don’t

or if it varies each and every game because the host changes and therefore the definition of what’s angle shooting or against the rules also changes

then you’re going to constantly run into problems where people don’t know what they can and cant do or misunderstand stuff because something was allowed in a previous game that the current host doesn’t allow or something like that

and it feels like it will just end up being a mess

instead of having each host write out exactly what they would prohibit and what they wouldn’t isnt it easier to have a general set of rules that are fairly consensus and can be referred to at the start of a game?

this way since it’s consistent everyone will be on the same page and know exactly what they should and shouldn’t do

and we can have a discussion about whether tutuu’s guidelines are fair or too strict or whatever

but i feel like having ~some~ standard removes a lot of potential headaches for players and hosts alike and generally would lead to a better experience?

especially since the syndicate has grown so much as a community recently and has a lot of offsite people who play and host now

and idk, i don’t feel like having some basic guidelines about this would really limit individual hosts abilities to run games as they want

hosts would still have full autonomy over everything else so it doesn’t seem like it should be a significant hinderance?

and i would think hosts might actually appreciate not having to spell out what they’ll allow or not themselves and instead have something that’s easy to refer to because it’s less work and also will make their games run more smoothly since everyone is more likely to be on the same page

but i don’t host so i don’t really want to speak for those that do

[Hally]

@Epignosis alright, thanks for clearing it up

I completely agree that hosts should be clear, straightforward, and unambiguous in defining their rules.

So how about, for quality of life, for the sake of convenience, have some sitewide list of rules (doesnt need to be the same ones i wrote in the OP, but something of this nature) that the majority of syndicate players agree are good rules, and have them be something as default, something to lean back on in case hosts are lazy / new to mafia.

I have played mafia here for half a year and the majority of games have barely anything written in them about the rules

So, like, i cant just PM every host and ask them "hey dude, could u please make ur rules more specific and detailed?"

Like, (from my understaning of what sloonei said), he is not opposed to some guidelines being written in a hosting thread that ppl need to look up themselves

But whats the problem with respectfully stuffing those gudelines in peoples faces, both hosts and players?

Like instead of blaming it on the host if theres a loophole in their rules, is it not strictly better to have a safety net of standard set of rules?

x-post

[Hally]

i do understand the other side of it though but overall i think i’m in agreement with tutuu

and i appreciate that this is being heard/discussed by staff

[Epignosis]

I have played mafia here for half a year and the majority of games have barely anything written in them about the rules

Could you elaborate on this for me?

[tutuu]

Okay give me a sec

[G-Man]

How about hosts let players spend Day 0 drafting a set of rules (or call it a covenant if you like) that they will follow for the rest of the game. Whatever rules are agreed to by the end of Day 0 are set and all players must abide by them. If you don’t show up to participate in Day 0, then you’re stuck with whatever rules the rest of the group came up with. Kind of like politics.

[G-Man]

Here’s how you solve the angleshooting issue: policy lynch known angleshooters.

[Hally]

How about hosts let players spend Day 0 drafting a set of rules (or call it a covenant if you like) that they will follow for the rest of the game. Whatever rules are agreed to by the end of Day 0 are set and all players must abide by them. If you don’t show up to participate in Day 0, then you’re stuck with whatever rules the rest of the group came up with. Kind of like politics.

i can’t tell if this is a serious suggestion but i think this is a very bad idea?

[G-Man]

I post a variation of the following in every game that I host. Given this thread’s focus, I’d like some feedback on it after all these years. What’s good about it? What’s bad about it? What’s unnecessary? What content does this mafia dinosaur need to change or update?

RULES AND WHATNOT

This partially-open setup game is for 15 players. As a Heist, there are only three power roles in the game. I will be using the following standard G-Man Game matrix:

	1	2	3
A	LOL	OMG	WTF
B	FFS	Free Space	JFC
C	GTFO	YCBS	STFU

Gameplay
1) Days are 48 hours long. I will do everything in my power to keep poll deadlines consistent.
2) Nights are 24 hours long.
3) Only those players who have BTSC may communicate with each other outside of the game thread but ONLY in designated BTSC threads or chat rooms. For everyone else, no game-related discussion is permitted outside the game thread.
4) Votes in the poll are the only votes that count. It's helpful but not mandatory that you declare your vote in the thread in a way that stands out to your peers and the host.
5) All votes are changeable all the way up to the deadline.
6) A tied lynch will result in no lynch. Votes matter. (This is a politics game for goodness' sake!) There will be no coin flips to determine lynch results.
7) Standard alignment wincons are in effect unless otherwise stated.
8) Dead is dead; you don't get to come back from that. Dead players are stripped of their BTSC rights.
9) Roles will be revealed upon death.
10) Additional gameplay elements will be added/revealed on an as-needed basis.
11) A tied night poll will result in no doors being unlocked and no letters being revealed.


Rules
1) Respect your fellow players, your host, and your Facilitator/MOD.
1a) Don't be an asshat.
1b) Don't get butthurt.
2) If you feel like another player is out of line or making/taking things personal/ly, contact the Facilitator/MOD, Dunya.
3) No BTSC regarding the game outside of the game thread(s). Players are told in their rolecard if they have BTSC. If you don't have it, don't engage in it. Violating this rule will result in a modkill.
4) No editing or deleting posts.
5) Self-voting is prohibited.
6) Double-targeting is prohibited.
7) Info-dumping is allowed, but do so at your own risk. Sharing is caring, but it can also get you killed.
8) Off-topic posts should be in OT Green.
9) Dead players are to post in Dead Red.
10) Non-Players should post in Non-Player Blue.
11) This is the host's color. Do not post in this color.
12) Participation is polite to everyone involved. If I feel you may not be paying attention to the game, I will reach out to you. Replacements and modkills may be employed if necessary. If you sign up, please play. If you can't play, request replacement.
13) Additional rules will be added/revealed on an as-needed basis.

[G-Man]

How about hosts let players spend Day 0 drafting a set of rules (or call it a covenant if you like) that they will follow for the rest of the game. Whatever rules are agreed to by the end of Day 0 are set and all players must abide by them. If you don’t show up to participate in Day 0, then you’re stuck with whatever rules the rest of the group came up with. Kind of like politics.

i can’t tell if this is a serious suggestion but i think this is a very bad idea?

It’s a equal parts serious and silly.

As a host, I don’t want to have to think too hard about special rules for each game. Players make the game what it is. If people choose to play like a jerk then that becomes their reputation. I realize that hosts can sometimes make missteps in their game structure (guilty on at least two counts here!), but isn’t it really up to the integrity of the player to choose whether or not to exploit that?

I have no idea where I’m going with this, but I think hosts are put in awkward situations by themselves a lot, but also because players make choices that take them down paths that could not be foreseen.

Maybe I’m being superficial, but having a thorough, standard set of rules sounds like it leads to a standard style of games. That sounds a little more boring.

I agree that ‘standard rules apply’ is insufficient, but players also need to actually read the damn rules each game. I have zero sympathy for people who get themselves into a pickle with their choices in my games when they haven’t read the rules. I have enmity for those individuals whose ignorance to the rules creates problems for me as a host.

Expect and exhibit decency in all things.

[tutuu]

@Epignosis here are the last 5 games in the Racket:

1) Making Friends and Enemies

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1967

there are no written rules provided by the host

2) Grasslands

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1958

there are no written rules provided by the host

in this game the host scolded me because i publicly complained about the setup itt and i suggested we change the rules of the setup on the spot. he found it to be angleshooty. how could i have known?

3) Avatar the last airbender

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1938

"Please avoid excessive AtE (appeals to emotion), defined as anything that directly states, implies, or suggests that your real life and/or friendship is being negatively effected by the game. If you feel that your real life is being negatively effected by the game, please contact a mod or site admin." - is the only written rule

4) the 7th saga

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 77#p667077

the game thread has a bunch of rules, but there is not a single thing that mentions: "angleshooting, OGI, talking about ongoing games, anything of the sort"

the host in this game talked to me when i screenshoted part of my DMs with another player in this game and he told me that i shouldnt have done that. how could i have known that he doesnt like that?

what if i decided to talk about an ongoing game? who could have stopped me, its not written in jay's rules, it's not really written in the syndicate standard rules (since those dont exist) - so technically would it be allowed? technically i could have also talked stuff like "this person is actively typing in the syndicate discord but he's not being ITT, so they're clearly avoiding it" - nothin would have stopped me, is that rly okay?

5) philosophers mafia

game thread: https://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewt ... 276&t=1926

a lot of rules which is nice, its solid, but still:

"If you try anything angleshooty, I will warn you once. Then I will modkill you. Don't try to break the game." - doesnt rly elaborate on what tony defines as angleshooty at all

i could go on, @Epignosis, but im pretty sure that hosts do not, in fact, write sufficient rules at all in their game threads

and i believe that it is absurd to expect them to lay out all the rules themselves

it is not something a person can come up with overnight, it would be very tedious and annoying for 1 person, a lot of hosts already (from my perspective) run their games based off of the assumption that there is some kind of sitewide standard that defines "angleshooting" so that's why they don't elaborate on it

but there is none

(and pls dont argue that this sample size is small, i skimmed over other threads and all hosts basically copy paste their same own rules)

i think that, one thing we can all agree that is angleshooting and wrong, at the minimum, is if a moderator or an administrator were to use their powers to check hidden accounts, and see who is lurking in the thread and not posting, and then post about it ITT, revealing those lurkers publicly

In all 5 of these games that I've linked, if we're going to be anal about the rules, it does not prohibit such behavior from the administators, because it does not define it. Nobody has put up a definition of angleshooting

Therefore, the logical step is for the community to come together with multiple definitions that can catch and prevent the majority of dirtyness in mafia games

If you do not have rules you are going to have chaos

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Fwiw I didn’t mention angleshooting in last airbender rules cause most of what people use angleshooting to describe doesn’t bother me/I don’t care about outlawing. I did forget to put my usual “don’t try to game role PMs” tho


I actually didn’t know the history of the phrase, Epi giving it is/was fairly enlightening. I’m not sure if there’s room for mafia to apply a different definition or not, but I certainly would personally use it in a much more narrow sense if the poker definition is the one being defaulted to.

[Epignosis]

I'd like to offer some long-term perspective from someone who has been here from the beginning.

The vast majority of games here do not involve broken rules, angle shooting, or hosting errors. I understand that the most recent game has perhaps contributed to the notion that a massive overhaul should be considered, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and a broad view of The Syndicate's evolution. I also want to remind everyone that Martin's game had a lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule. That is not normal. Some of the games listed above are by new or newer hosts. There's a learning curve to hosting.

I have hosted on this site for seven years and I have never had a problem with angle shooting that I can recall, nor do I remember anybody else having that problem prior to recently.

There shouldn't be a rule that mentions "angle shooting" because the very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is legal but generally viewed as underhanded. There is no list for that. There never will be. As technology changes, the ability to angle shoot will change. Poker encountered crazy new angle shooting tactics when online poker became a thing. The most notorious was ripping your Internet connection out of the wall to take advantage of Internet disconnection allowances sites had, so that you could bounce out of bad hands to move on to new ones. There was no rule against that, so people did it until there was one. Against the rules? No! Shitty? Underhanded? Yes! That's what angle shooting is.

I believe hosts should make the rules for their games beyond the universal Syndicate rules. And if hosts don't make the rules themselves, then what gives you any confidence they will enforce the rules we write?

[tutuu]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

[MartinGG99]

lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule

I would like to add two asterisks to this as the host of that game:

1) One of the violations is in debate; As the host of that game I do feel that they way I intended the game to go it was, but as to how I ran it and how I worded the rule it was possibly not. It, at the very least, was controversial (even if ignoring the severity of a response to it) for some players and said controversy in of itself proves the rule was not written well-enough for it to be a clear violation.

2) Both violations could have not happened if I had simply not committed the host error.

[Hally]

I'd like to offer some long-term perspective from someone who has been here from the beginning.

The vast majority of games here do not involve broken rules, angle shooting, or hosting errors. I understand that the most recent game has perhaps contributed to the notion that a massive overhaul should be considered, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and a broad view of The Syndicate's evolution. I also want to remind everyone that Martin's game had a lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule. That is not normal. Some of the games listed above are by new or newer hosts. There's a learning curve to hosting.

I have hosted on this site for seven years and I have never had a problem with angle shooting that I can recall, nor do I remember anybody else having that problem prior to recently.

There shouldn't be a rule that mentions "angle shooting" because the very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is legal but generally viewed as underhanded. There is no list for that. There never will be. As technology changes, the ability to angle shoot will change. Poker encountered crazy new angle shooting tactics when online poker was a thing. The most notorious was ripping your Internet connection out of the wall to take advantage of Internet disconnection allowances sites had, so that you could bounce out of bad hands to move on to new ones. There was no rule against that, so people did it until there was one. Against the rules? No! Shitty? Underhanded? Yes! That's what angle shooting is.

I believe hosts should make the rules for their games beyond the universal Syndicate rules. And if hosts don't make the rules themselves, then what gives you any confidence they will enforce the rules we write?

it may be that angleshooting hasn’t been that big of a problem during most of your time here but the site is growing and many new people are now playing and hosting

and the more people you have from different places the more problems you’ll run into because everyone will come from different places where the rules are different or what have you

the syndicate appears to be changing and growing a lot as a community and i think the rules should also change to account for that, no?

and i feel like you’re playing a bit with semantics by saying angleshooting can’t be outlawed because it’s by definition not against the rules

okay then lets just call what we‘ve been referring to as angleshooting something else and then say it’s not allowed

even in the example you gave with people disconnecting their internet in poker, did the people in charge go “well that’s shitty and against the spirit of the game but we can’t ban it because it’s not already banned, it’s just angleshooting”?

no, they just banned it because they realized their rules needed to change as the community changed

and regarding the last point, if hosts don’t enforce the rules the mod team puts forth as a standard for the community they shouldn’t be allowed to host games here

i mean, it seems fairly straightforward that if we actually do implement community wide rules like tutuu is proposing it would have to be a requirement to host here that hosts enforce those site rules as part of their duty as a host

and if they repeatedly shirked that responsibility, they shouldn’t be allowed to host here anymore

while that may sound harsh, if it’s as you say that instances where such a rule would even need to be enforced are so rare, it shouldn’t be so imposing on hosts to enforce it in the once in a blue moon where they need to

[Epignosis]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

[tutuu]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

[Epignosis]

I'd like to offer some long-term perspective from someone who has been here from the beginning.

The vast majority of games here do not involve broken rules, angle shooting, or hosting errors. I understand that the most recent game has perhaps contributed to the notion that a massive overhaul should be considered, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and a broad view of The Syndicate's evolution. I also want to remind everyone that Martin's game had a lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule. That is not normal. Some of the games listed above are by new or newer hosts. There's a learning curve to hosting.

I have hosted on this site for seven years and I have never had a problem with angle shooting that I can recall, nor do I remember anybody else having that problem prior to recently.

There shouldn't be a rule that mentions "angle shooting" because the very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is legal but generally viewed as underhanded. There is no list for that. There never will be. As technology changes, the ability to angle shoot will change. Poker encountered crazy new angle shooting tactics when online poker was a thing. The most notorious was ripping your Internet connection out of the wall to take advantage of Internet disconnection allowances sites had, so that you could bounce out of bad hands to move on to new ones. There was no rule against that, so people did it until there was one. Against the rules? No! Shitty? Underhanded? Yes! That's what angle shooting is.

I believe hosts should make the rules for their games beyond the universal Syndicate rules. And if hosts don't make the rules themselves, then what gives you any confidence they will enforce the rules we write?

it may be that angleshooting hasn’t been that big of a problem during most of your time here but the site is growing and many new people are now playing and hosting

and the more people you have from different places the more problems you’ll run into because everyone will come from different places where the rules are different or what have you

the syndicate appears to be changing and growing a lot as a community and i think the rules should also change to account for that, no?

and i feel like you’re playing a bit with semantics by saying angleshooting can’t be outlawed because it’s by definition not against the rules

okay then lets just call what we‘ve been referring to as angleshooting something else and then say it’s not allowed

even in the example you gave with people disconnecting their internet in poker, did the people in charge go “well that’s shitty and against the spirit of the game but we can’t ban it because it’s not already banned, it’s just angleshooting”?

no, they just banned it because they realized their rules needed to change as the community changed

and regarding the last point, if hosts don’t enforce the rules the mod team puts forth as a standard for the community they shouldn’t be allowed to host games here

i mean, it seems fairly straightforward that if we actually do implement community wide rules like tutuu is proposing it would have to be a requirement to host here that hosts enforce those site rules as part of their duty as a host

and if they repeatedly shirked that responsibility, they shouldn’t be allowed to host here anymore

while that may sound harsh, if it’s as you say that instances where such a rule would even need to be enforced are so rare, it shouldn’t be so imposing on hosts to enforce it in the once in a blue moon where they need to

The very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is not against the rules to gain an unfair advantage. Once the rules change (as they eventually did in Internet poker) it isn't angle shooting anymore. It's against the rules. Online poker changed.

I think you don't get what I'm trying to tell you angle shooting is, and I think most mafia players don't understand the concept.

You can't just say "ban angle shooting." That doesn't mean anything. You can't enforce that, because angle shooting is anything that doesn't break the rules that gives someone an unfair advantage.

What rules do you specifically want to see? would be the pertinent question.

[Hally]

epi let’s just refer to what tutuu has been calling “angle shooting” as “beebabooping”

should beebabooping be allowed and if it’s not allowed would it be beneficial to have site wide guidelines to address it?

[tutuu]

What rules do you specifically want to see? would be the pertinent question.

the ones i listed in the OP. every time you read angleshooting in them, pretend that it says muffins instead.

[Epignosis]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

I don't know what you want me to do with that information. I have been more or less retired as a player during this time. I swapped in in The Simpsons. You're not explaining what the integrity issues were in the games. Were they not resolved fairly or correctly?

[Epignosis]

None of that is helpful to me, Hally, tutuu.

[G-Man]

For the record, I have been conditioned to have zero confidence that all players in any game will read the rules.

I can speak to Escape From Russia’s kerfuffle. I aspire to let game events determine the outcome. I do not like to modkill, but I have to include it my rules so that there are worst-case consequences to worst-case actions.

In EFR, the no info-dumping rule was violated in spirit but perhaps not to the letter of the law. How many hints equate to an info-dump? I feel like that was what I faced. This happened when a player appeared to have given up on the game and then got back into it by making hints that were not subtle. Modkilling at that point would have literally handed the victory to the bad guys rather than them playing out the game and earning it.

Perhaps in this case, I as a host choose to let an awkward situation fester rather than have the concluding installment of a game series that I loved up to that point end in the lamest way possible. That’s the flip-side of the creative freedom The Syndicate affords its hosts- you can get too attached to your idea of how the game should play out, and then have it all thrown into a blender because human beings make unpredictable and irrational decisions under pressure.

[tutuu]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

I don't know what you want me to do with that information. I have been more or less retired as a player during this time. I swapped in in The Simpsons. You're not explaining what the integrity issues were in the games. Were they not resolved fairly or correctly?

i am arguing that those issues wouldn't have popped up in the first place if there was a standard set of rules that clearly defines what's ok and what's not ok

[Hally]

I'd like to offer some long-term perspective from someone who has been here from the beginning.

The vast majority of games here do not involve broken rules, angle shooting, or hosting errors. I understand that the most recent game has perhaps contributed to the notion that a massive overhaul should be considered, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and a broad view of The Syndicate's evolution. I also want to remind everyone that Martin's game had a lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule. That is not normal. Some of the games listed above are by new or newer hosts. There's a learning curve to hosting.

I have hosted on this site for seven years and I have never had a problem with angle shooting that I can recall, nor do I remember anybody else having that problem prior to recently.

There shouldn't be a rule that mentions "angle shooting" because the very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is legal but generally viewed as underhanded. There is no list for that. There never will be. As technology changes, the ability to angle shoot will change. Poker encountered crazy new angle shooting tactics when online poker was a thing. The most notorious was ripping your Internet connection out of the wall to take advantage of Internet disconnection allowances sites had, so that you could bounce out of bad hands to move on to new ones. There was no rule against that, so people did it until there was one. Against the rules? No! Shitty? Underhanded? Yes! That's what angle shooting is.

I believe hosts should make the rules for their games beyond the universal Syndicate rules. And if hosts don't make the rules themselves, then what gives you any confidence they will enforce the rules we write?

it may be that angleshooting hasn’t been that big of a problem during most of your time here but the site is growing and many new people are now playing and hosting

and the more people you have from different places the more problems you’ll run into because everyone will come from different places where the rules are different or what have you

the syndicate appears to be changing and growing a lot as a community and i think the rules should also change to account for that, no?

and i feel like you’re playing a bit with semantics by saying angleshooting can’t be outlawed because it’s by definition not against the rules

okay then lets just call what we‘ve been referring to as angleshooting something else and then say it’s not allowed

even in the example you gave with people disconnecting their internet in poker, did the people in charge go “well that’s shitty and against the spirit of the game but we can’t ban it because it’s not already banned, it’s just angleshooting”?

no, they just banned it because they realized their rules needed to change as the community changed

and regarding the last point, if hosts don’t enforce the rules the mod team puts forth as a standard for the community they shouldn’t be allowed to host games here

i mean, it seems fairly straightforward that if we actually do implement community wide rules like tutuu is proposing it would have to be a requirement to host here that hosts enforce those site rules as part of their duty as a host

and if they repeatedly shirked that responsibility, they shouldn’t be allowed to host here anymore

while that may sound harsh, if it’s as you say that instances where such a rule would even need to be enforced are so rare, it shouldn’t be so imposing on hosts to enforce it in the once in a blue moon where they need to

The very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is not against the rules to gain an unfair advantage. Once the rules change (as they eventually did in Internet poker) it isn't angle shooting anymore. It's against the rules. Online poker changed.

I think you don't get what I'm trying to tell you angle shooting is, and I think most mafia players don't understand the concept.

You can't just say "ban angle shooting." That doesn't mean anything. You can't enforce that, because angle shooting is anything that doesn't break the rules that gives someone an unfair advantage.

What rules do you specifically want to see? would be the pertinent question.

i do understand what you’re saying

so let’s say that like the online poker communities, we want to ban things that are currently considered angleshooting but we think should actually be explicitly against the rules

is that okay and why or why not?

[Epignosis]

the definition of poker angleshooting is not the same as the mafia definition of angleshooting, the way most people use it. most people believe that angleshooting is against the rules, they use the phrase in that way (in mafia)

The way mafia players use "angle shooting" is however they want without regard to what it actually means. It's a specific thing, and if you want to call me a Prescriptivist, I don't care. Angle shooting is a very specific thing that the Mafia community didn't make up. If you can't define it, then you can't solve it. If you want to call whatever you want angle shooting and disrespect the poker community, then I'll accuse you of cultural appropriation.

i do not believe martin's game is the only game that had integrity issues

off top of my memory:

radiohead by sloonei - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host gave compensation to the mafia team
simpsons by sloonei - a person violated the "dont claim your identity" rule and the host had to warn that he would start modkilling for it
escape from russia by g-man - a person violated the "no infodumping rule" and the host had to warn them and was considering modkilling them
philosophers mafia by tony - he had to modkill two people, one for violating an infodumping rule, another for going over the post count out of frustration
lion king by dunya - she had to modkill a person who contacted another person by discord and talked to them about the game

Pretend you were the host in each of these. What would you have done differently?

im listing these games that have had integrity issues in response to your claim that the syndicate has no problem with integrity in its games

I don't know what you want me to do with that information. I have been more or less retired as a player during this time. I swapped in in The Simpsons. You're not explaining what the integrity issues were in the games. Were they not resolved fairly or correctly?

i am arguing that those issues wouldn't have popped up in the first place if there was a standard set of rules that clearly defines what's ok and what's not ok

It sounds to me like the hosts gave rules and issued warnings or modkills based on those rules. I don't understand your grievance.

[Epignosis]

I'd like to offer some long-term perspective from someone who has been here from the beginning.

The vast majority of games here do not involve broken rules, angle shooting, or hosting errors. I understand that the most recent game has perhaps contributed to the notion that a massive overhaul should be considered, but I encourage everyone to take a deep breath and a broad view of The Syndicate's evolution. I also want to remind everyone that Martin's game had a lynch mistake AND two people violate a host rule. That is not normal. Some of the games listed above are by new or newer hosts. There's a learning curve to hosting.

I have hosted on this site for seven years and I have never had a problem with angle shooting that I can recall, nor do I remember anybody else having that problem prior to recently.

There shouldn't be a rule that mentions "angle shooting" because the very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is legal but generally viewed as underhanded. There is no list for that. There never will be. As technology changes, the ability to angle shoot will change. Poker encountered crazy new angle shooting tactics when online poker was a thing. The most notorious was ripping your Internet connection out of the wall to take advantage of Internet disconnection allowances sites had, so that you could bounce out of bad hands to move on to new ones. There was no rule against that, so people did it until there was one. Against the rules? No! Shitty? Underhanded? Yes! That's what angle shooting is.

I believe hosts should make the rules for their games beyond the universal Syndicate rules. And if hosts don't make the rules themselves, then what gives you any confidence they will enforce the rules we write?

it may be that angleshooting hasn’t been that big of a problem during most of your time here but the site is growing and many new people are now playing and hosting

and the more people you have from different places the more problems you’ll run into because everyone will come from different places where the rules are different or what have you

the syndicate appears to be changing and growing a lot as a community and i think the rules should also change to account for that, no?

and i feel like you’re playing a bit with semantics by saying angleshooting can’t be outlawed because it’s by definition not against the rules

okay then lets just call what we‘ve been referring to as angleshooting something else and then say it’s not allowed

even in the example you gave with people disconnecting their internet in poker, did the people in charge go “well that’s shitty and against the spirit of the game but we can’t ban it because it’s not already banned, it’s just angleshooting”?

no, they just banned it because they realized their rules needed to change as the community changed

and regarding the last point, if hosts don’t enforce the rules the mod team puts forth as a standard for the community they shouldn’t be allowed to host games here

i mean, it seems fairly straightforward that if we actually do implement community wide rules like tutuu is proposing it would have to be a requirement to host here that hosts enforce those site rules as part of their duty as a host

and if they repeatedly shirked that responsibility, they shouldn’t be allowed to host here anymore

while that may sound harsh, if it’s as you say that instances where such a rule would even need to be enforced are so rare, it shouldn’t be so imposing on hosts to enforce it in the once in a blue moon where they need to

The very definition of angle shooting is doing something that is not against the rules to gain an unfair advantage. Once the rules change (as they eventually did in Internet poker) it isn't angle shooting anymore. It's against the rules. Online poker changed.

I think you don't get what I'm trying to tell you angle shooting is, and I think most mafia players don't understand the concept.

You can't just say "ban angle shooting." That doesn't mean anything. You can't enforce that, because angle shooting is anything that doesn't break the rules that gives someone an unfair advantage.

What rules do you specifically want to see? would be the pertinent question.

i do understand what you’re saying

so let’s say that like the online poker communities, we want to ban things that are currently considered angleshooting but we think should actually be explicitly against the rules

is that okay and why or why not?

The host and his or her game is the poker community.

The Syndicate is not the poker community.

[Epignosis]

I'm spending the rest of my time with my family.

[Hally]

most of tutuu’s proposal has nothing to do with the word angleshooting

what about the other things?

what’s the issue with banning those things?

i don’t really understand