Suggestion for sitewide standard of rules for Mafia games

[tutuu]

And (if u have the time) - some definitions on angleshooting altho thats lengthy i know

[Justplayingitcool]

Role reveals when players die: Full reveals of both role and alignment for day phase eliminations and night kills
- A classically Syndicate style is to fully janitor (hide) night killed roles and alignments. It's good to warn players of this in the sign-up thread if you intend for it.
- No-flip games (no reveals at all) are somewhat common in some circles, particularly with mountainous (no power role) games. This is still non-standard and players should be made aware.

Is this normally standard to reveal the full role on the Syndicate? On my homesite, we only reveal their role title.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Is this normally standard to reveal the full role on the Syndicate? On my homesite, we only reveal their role title.

Norms will vary considerably around the internet, but I believe the most typical would be a full reveal (presuming a closed setup where this distinction is relevant).

[Quin]

one of the things we urge a lot is to check with hosts if you aren't sure something you want to post is 'safe' or not. players here take a lot of control into their own hands with what they post and one of the things i love about the community here is that people don't usually need to be told not to do things that might ruin another person's game experience. for the most part, i don't think we really need a suite of rules that ultimately boil down to "don't be a dick". i might just be rejecting the idea of being told what i can and can't do though.

something i'm wary of regarding a set of standard rules is the affect it'll have on new hosts coming in. it would suck for new hosts to limit their creativity if they think games are run a certain way by default. i think designing a set of rules around a game theme inspires greater creativity than the other way around. we wouldn't have such amazing games as u-pick otherwise

that said, i think rules 2 through 5 are pretty much the standard here. 6 is always going to be a point of contention - if a player flipped scum in an ongoing game and is being suspected in another, i don't see it as a problem to talk about that if i feel that there's a tonal difference going on between the two games. i always feel weird doing it, but i also don't think it should be against the rules.

[Quin]

if i wanna host a game where i trash talk the losing faction the entire game that's my right, damnit!

[Quin]

as an experiment i looked at g-man's typical roster of rules and picked out the ones that i'd agree with putting on a standard list.

he's got over a dozen rules there and i reduced it to

1. having respect for players
2. contacting the mod first if you feel someone is going too far

anything else sets a standard for game design which i think isn't such a great idea.

[Quin]

we've had some awesome games here with unique BTSC mechanics (a few from INH come to mind) and i shudder to think of a universe where those games didn't exist because INH was acclimated to a certain standard of rules.

"tradition is the enemy of innovation".

[tutuu]

Despite the title of the thread this isnt about setting a standard that hosts should adhere to

Its literally only about convenience and clarity

By default - the thing written in the guideline applies unless the host says otherwise

The host can do whatever they want and can run any type of games as long as they communicate the difference, as opposed to them expecting that the players will know (its mostly a result of different mafia cultures assuming different things)

And also like, some hosts just dont remember to clarify on how they like to run things - then players play assuming X, but when the time comes the host is used to Y being the default, then the player feels robbed etc. So this is useful to settle disputes / let players know how to play in advance

I disagree with talking about ongoing games - potentially damaging the integrity of one or two games is worse than losing the advantage of talking about said ongoing games to your advantage game-wise

[tutuu]

if i wanna host a game where i trash talk the losing faction the entire game that's my right, damnit!

I agree with u there, this is compulsory

[JaggedJimmyJay]

These will not be rules for the site. They'll be guidelines to help hosts if they want it, and to help players communicate their questions to hosts about their hosting philosophies.

However, if there is any one thing that I think must be an actual rule, it's that we cannot have players talking about other ongoing games. This involves multiple hosts with different philosophies. For example:

I am hosting Game X.

Bob is hosting Game Y.

I absolutely do not want players in Game Y talking about what's happening in Game X while it is still running, and I don't care what Bob's rules are on the matter.

The only way to prevent b/s is to make that one a literal rule. And I don't think it's unreasonable. Hosts work too hard to have the integrity of their games threatened by that kind of cheese.

[G-Man]

My personal stance on telling players about the number of factions present is this: if a host runs an open-setup with no secret roles, then the number of factions will be obvious. If a host runs a closed-setup or open-setup with one or more secret roles, then the players sign up for the unexpected. I agree that it should become obvious that other factions exist (as has been the case in many of my games), but I don’t think a host should be required to reveal how many factions are present.

I realize that, as the jerk who ran a fake game featuring all civs and no baddies, my opinion probably doesn’t mean much to a number of folks. I think the host should always have the freedom and choice of how much they want to reveal to players before the game starts. Games by INH and Rico would have been far less interesting had we not been forced to just roll with it.

As a host, I like to throw considerable twists into some of my games. Without a little mystery and intrigue in the setup, games tend to feel too cookie-cutter or formulaic for me. I admit to being a dinosaur who takes little joy from games being solved and won too scientifically. I prefer a splash of artistry.

I realize that the merging of cultures means that newer folks won’t know host tendencies, but I have always put the onus on my players to ask questions. Sometimes the answer will be “hell no, I can’t/won’t answer that,” but I’m usually pretty open with clarifying things. Don’t get mad about sitting in a dark room because you never asked the landlord where the light switch is.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I realize that the merging of cultures means that newer folks won’t know host tendencies, but I have always put the onus on my players to ask questions. Sometimes the answer will be “hell no, I can’t/won’t answer that,” but I’m usually pretty open with clarifying things. Don’t get mad about sitting in a dark room because you never asked the landlord where the light switch is.

I don't think this is necessarily the wrong idea, but also keep in mind: to ask the landlord where the light switch is, someone must first know that there is a light switch. Sometimes hosting philosophy is so different from culture-to-culture that certain things seem fundamental or obvious -- and nobody realizes they even should ask the question or that a question is possible until it's already too late.

This list of guidelines would help players especially to know what questions to ask.

[Hally]

thanks for making that jay! seems like it’s off to a good start

[G-Man]

I realize that the merging of cultures means that newer folks won’t know host tendencies, but I have always put the onus on my players to ask questions. Sometimes the answer will be “hell no, I can’t/won’t answer that,” but I’m usually pretty open with clarifying things. Don’t get mad about sitting in a dark room because you never asked the landlord where the light switch is.

I don't think this is necessarily the wrong idea, but also keep in mind: to ask the landlord where the light switch is, someone must first know that there is a light switch. Sometimes hosting philosophy is so different from culture-to-culture that certain things seem fundamental or obvious -- and nobody realizes they even should ask the question or that a question is possible until it's already too late.

This list of guidelines would help players especially to know what questions to ask.

If it’s a matter of cultural “outsiders” needing to know what questions might merit asking based on tendencies of the existing culture, I would argue that “hosts do weird stuff here- don’t be afraid to ask questions, as results may vary by host” sounds like something to put in a new member orientation space, not necessarily something each host has to do every single game. Just my two cents.

[Syn]

I'm not sure it really matters to try and make it easy for "newbie hosts" to figure out the culture of TS. The queues are chock-full, so it will be several months before a newcomer who wants to host can even do that, and by that time they'll have played some games and chatted with everyone on the Discord a bit. And to an extent, new blood is only to TS's benefit even if they're different, no? I've heard stories about "old TS" and it sounds dramatically different than how it is today, and I'd say the changes through time and immigration have only improved the community. Not to mention that members will make their concerns known if someone enters the queue with a setup that clashes heavily with the interests of the community.

Regarding members being unaware of what games are like, they can ask in the sign-up thread. Or spectate. Or join one of the game types specifically suited for those who may be unfamiliar with custom games. And as a player, I'm not sure I would really glean anything meaningful from a newbie guide/orientation that says games can be wild or weird, or telling me to ask questions. Unless you get very specific, this doesn't actually say much about what to expect. And really, what website is going to say you can't ask questions?

I don't know. I really do think just about everyone can figure this out by just paying attention. A newbie player or newbie host who is just doing their own thing will feel out of touch with the culture, but that's not because of the culture... it's because they're not paying attention. If they decide they hate the culture after they've had themselves a gander, again, that's not because of the culture, that's because of them. TS is one of the most popular Mafia sites and communities out there and for good reason. But I don't believe the people who've shunned TS and walked away did so because of lack of transparency or information.

[G-Man]

I think I agree with most of what Syn says in their post up there ^

Newcomers who wish to host will most likely play a few games to test the waters. We are a community that loves to read new game ideas and offer feedback, so any prospective new first-time-on-TS hosts will likely have their game proposals lovingly picked apart out of curiosity over a shiny new thing.

The merits of paying attention really is what it boils down to, so bravo for expressing it that way. I’m sure we’ve all been slackers and haven’t read all of a hosts rules and roles at times, but being aware of that stuff does provide clarity.

I must admit that most of my commentary is coming less from an offensive standpoint of “you new folks need to assimilate to our ways,” and more from a defensive standpoint. Some of what I’ve read in this thread has felt to me like newer people making a list of demands on me as a host, as if to say “you must do x, y, and z for me as a prospective player of your game in order for me to understand your game and hosting style, and help me determine if I feel it meets my expectations of a ‘proper’ mafia game.”

I realize that this is not entirely the case, but certainly a product of me being a set-in-my-ways grown-ass mafia dinosaur. I’m happy we have new players, as that keeps the site vibrant and alive. I try not to get into the weeds about proper gameplay and gamesolving because I am not a regular player. Hosting is my passion, so I am more willing to be vocal about that subject.

Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut overall though, because I’m not one who really advances the culture or builds bridges between culture groups. I’m just here to hang out with cool folks and host while I still have interest in hosting and as long as people are interested in my games. Having had to follow bread crumbs from one defunct iteration of this community’s origins to another twice now, I’m at the end of the line here while it seems like a fit for me. Exploring new lands isn’t for me. When the time comes, I’ll just slowly fade myself out. Until that time comes, I just want to do what I know how to do.

As a player, I just jump in with a new host and use the experience to decide if I will be inclined to play future games of theirs. No offense, but if you want to understand my hosting style and ethos, you’re just going to have to play or follow one or two of my games. Preferably one of the more normal ones (which are few and far between at the moment). Sometimes I just don’t want you to understand my game before it starts because I think it’s more interesting and enhances the playing experience that way.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Wrt cross game reads

I think its fairly obvious you shouldn't allow talking a read on a player alive in two games based on "I think they're scum in X and town in Y." That seems fairly obviously to be something that breaks game integrity or whatever and makes it less fun for everyone involved. As much as I have distaste for "you can have X read you just can't talk about it," this is the exception where I think it makes sense.

There is some amount of grey area when a player is dead in one game. Personally I think if player A is dead in X its fine to read them in Y based in part on their alignment in X. However this can get tricky if player B is still alive in both games--does that mean just player B can't talk about it but players C, D, etc. can? Or nobody can because player B can't? Idk the best answer to that, im not convinced its the mu standard where you can't until game Y is finished but I acknowledge there isn't a clear best different way to do it.


At any rate, talking about cross game reads while a player is alive in both seems like an easy and obvious no no to me.

[Quin]

I think I agree with most of what Syn says in their post up there ^

Newcomers who wish to host will most likely play a few games to test the waters. We are a community that loves to read new game ideas and offer feedback, so any prospective new first-time-on-TS hosts will likely have their game proposals lovingly picked apart out of curiosity over a shiny new thing.

The merits of paying attention really is what it boils down to, so bravo for expressing it that way. I’m sure we’ve all been slackers and haven’t read all of a hosts rules and roles at times, but being aware of that stuff does provide clarity.

I must admit that most of my commentary is coming less from an offensive standpoint of “you new folks need to assimilate to our ways,” and more from a defensive standpoint. Some of what I’ve read in this thread has felt to me like newer people making a list of demands on me as a host, as if to say “you must do x, y, and z for me as a prospective player of your game in order for me to understand your game and hosting style, and help me determine if I feel it meets my expectations of a ‘proper’ mafia game.”

I realize that this is not entirely the case, but certainly a product of me being a set-in-my-ways grown-ass mafia dinosaur. I’m happy we have new players, as that keeps the site vibrant and alive. I try not to get into the weeds about proper gameplay and gamesolving because I am not a regular player. Hosting is my passion, so I am more willing to be vocal about that subject.

Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut overall though, because I’m not one who really advances the culture or builds bridges between culture groups. I’m just here to hang out with cool folks and host while I still have interest in hosting and as long as people are interested in my games. Having had to follow bread crumbs from one defunct iteration of this community’s origins to another twice now, I’m at the end of the line here while it seems like a fit for me. Exploring new lands isn’t for me. When the time comes, I’ll just slowly fade myself out. Until that time comes, I just want to do what I know how to do.

As a player, I just jump in with a new host and use the experience to decide if I will be inclined to play future games of theirs. No offense, but if you want to understand my hosting style and ethos, you’re just going to have to play or follow one or two of my games. Preferably one of the more normal ones (which are few and far between at the moment). Sometimes I just don’t want you to understand my game before it starts because I think it’s more interesting and enhances the playing experience that way.

yeah i think im in the same boat here re: being a mafia dinosaur. i feel like ive probably missed some event that's made this an issue to talk about now because this site has always been an amalgamation of different communities and i never saw need for standard rules before.

also, hard disagree with the idea that i need to tell people about the number of unique alignments in a game. you can just as easily inform players on what to expect while maintaining the mystery of your game by saying there 'might be' a light switch instead. sprityo does this, i think.

all that said i am typically pretty open about whats included in my setups, so shrug

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do as a host.

[G-Man]

Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do as a host.

Not exactly true. This is still a free market system here. Just because there is supply doesn’t mean that supply is demanded. A prospective host can be pressured to retool their game or rules based on feedback. I’ve posted several game ideas that barely get any feedback as an idea, but when I go to host it, people sometimes nitpick it to death during sign-ups to the point where I feel that I have to make tweaks just to fill the game to the point where it can run.

A host can certainly do whatever they like, but players have a vote in whether a game runs or not. If a host turns people off with their style or philosophy, they can vote ‘no’ in that host’s future games. If this happens with enough people, then that host either has to start catering to the preferences of the players or else they’ll never be able to run a game.

[Epignosis]

Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do as a host.

Excellent. I hate sending out role PMs. I really do.

[Syn]

Nobody has to do anything they don’t want to do as a host.

Excellent. I hate sending out role PMs. I really do.

lmao