Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[acrosstheaether]

My thoughts were Vompatti > G-Man > fingersplints > Golden. Lol at me being the wrongest I could be wrong.

[Golden]

Oh, my other favourite bit of the game other than the rap was this:

I have several mafia team scenarios going around in my head at the moment. What do players think of these?

1. aether, BR, Epi, Roxy
2. aether, BR, DDL, Turnip
3. aether, BR, G-Man, Roxy
4. aether, BR, Jay, Roxy
5. Bass, BR, Epi, Roxy
6. Bass, BR, Jay, Roxy
7. BR, DDL, Turnip, Roxy
8. BR, G-Man, Jay, Roxy
9. BR, G-Man, Vompatti, Roxy

etc.

Calling it now.

Oh man, you mafia guys should have killed me last night. BIG MISTAKE.

Seriously, TinyBubbles? What were you thinking?

This series absolutely made my day. It's also the point at which I knew you would be dying that night. "you should have killed me last night" lol - it was too good to pass up.

MP, I loved your game this game. It was equal parts awesome and hilarious.

[acrosstheaether]

Hahahahahahahaha lmao.

[fingersplints]

I think that all of us civvies had a lot of wrong suspicions, but what was great was that we really worked together as a team, and that is why we ALMOST won. I think that Gman was right I probably wouldn't have changed my mind, but my 1,2,3 suspicion list was a lot closer until I felt like Gman was just taunting me and trying to rile me up into an early vote. (since he wasn't bad probably not what he was doing after all but it's what I felt like at the time.) I also thought that maybe he had figured out my role and so he knew I was waiting to vote because mine effected those around me on the poll, and was going to use that to his advantage.

I think this game was a bit rough in the beggining, but shaped up to be a lot of fun in the end. There was some heated debate about low posting vs high posting, but I think that now that this game is over we understand each other more. When you all started the ISO's I had a hard time, because especially as a civvie I feel the need to respond to every little thing about me. I think that you guys have a better idea of how I play too (like I am a bit quieter in the beggining. I like small straight to the point posts. a bit on the emotional side. stubborn to a fault. etc) and that can help you understand more where I am coming from.

I'd also like to reiterate Golden's post about Tiny Bubbles. It was the same in the Narnia game. She was quiet but from what the hosts posted after, she used her ability pretty effectively. So while she might not be the most vocal player, I think she has a better idea about what is going on then most would expect. She is going to make a scary baddie when she finally gets that role.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

My role checks were
N1 - JJJ
N2 - DDL
N3 - Roxy
N4 - Bass

I hinted to both JJJ and DDL in the thread that I knew their roles. Did either of you catch that?

No, I guess I was completely obvlivious to the roles in this game. The only thing I noticed was MP having information.

This is why Mafia is a great game. You can pour your heart and soul into it and still lose.

Beautifully played Golden! You too BWT. Had you allowed me to play in LyLo (I wish I could have been there for you townies), I would have absolutely not voted for G-Man.

Spoiler: show

I'd have voted for splints

Had I been allowed to play to lylo, I'd have absolutely voted for G-Man. On day 7. And yelled at people for wanting to lynch sanmateo instead of him.

Then PERHAPS we could have lynched Golden on day 8, though I have no idea who I'd want to vote in na G-Man-less day.

I can guarantee you vompatti sent you the watercooling video, DDL.

Why is that?

DDL -- i love your townie approach. you were willing to get yourself in a little trouble for the greater good. the value of that, and your skill in playing that way, cannot be overstated. also, i beat Sloonei in the chess game (it was his time playing ever :P)

Thanks man!

Now all that's left to do is for me to show my baddie approach.

As for the chess, I figured out something like that might happen lol

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Anyone wants to help me figure out the roles, since the mods aren't saying anything? Here's what i've got:

Adam Smith = MP
Jean-BaptistSay = G-Man
Carl Menger = Metalmarsh
Ludwig Von mises = Vomps?
F. A. Hakek = Golden 1.0
Joseph Schumpeter = sanmateo
John Nash = DDL
Vilfredo Pareto = ?
Paul Samuelson = ?
Ronald Coase = ?
Milton Friedman = Epi
Murray Rothbard = aether
Arthur Pigou = fingersplints
George Alerkof = Turnip Head

John Maynard Keynes = Roxy
Karl Marx = Bass
David Ricardo = Black Rock
Robert Solow = bwt/Golden 2.0

Thomas Malthus = Elo

So all that's left are Bubbles, Jay and Sloonei. Also Vomps assuming he was not Von Mises.

[Marmot]

I can guarantee you vompatti sent you the watercooling video, DDL.

Why is that?

Water cooling is expensive in Finalnd.

[thellama73]

Anyone wants to help me figure out the roles, since the mods aren't saying anything? Here's what i've got:

Adam Smith = MP
Jean-BaptistSay = G-Man
Carl Menger = Metalmarsh
Ludwig Von mises = Vomps?
F. A. Hakek = Golden 1.0
Joseph Schumpeter = sanmateo
John Nash = DDL
Vilfredo Pareto = ?
Paul Samuelson = ?
Ronald Coase = ?
Milton Friedman = Epi
Murray Rothbard = aether
Arthur Pigou = fingersplints
George Alerkof = Turnip Head

John Maynard Keynes = Roxy
Karl Marx = Bass
David Ricardo = Black Rock
Robert Solow = bwt/Golden 2.0

Thomas Malthus = Elo

So all that's left are Bubbles, Jay and Sloonei. Also Vomps assuming he was not Von Mises.

acrosstheaether Murray Rothbard
Bass_the_Clever Karl Marx
Golden 2.0 Robert Solow
Black Rock David Ricardo
Vompatti Ludwig von Mises
Dragon D. Luffy John Nash
Elohcin Thomas Malthus
Epignosis Milton Friedman
fingersplints Arthur Pigou
G-Man Jean Babtiste Say
Golden FA Hayek
JaggedJimmyJay Vilfredo Pareto
Metalmarsh89 Carl Menger
MovingPictures07 Adam Smith
Roxy John Maynard Keynes
sanmateo Joseph Schumpeter
Sloonei Paul Samueleson
TinyBubbles Ronald Coase
Turnip Head George Akerlof

[thellama73]

Well, that formatting was horrible, but you get the idea.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Thanks!

[G-Man]

G-Man, you have no idea how much I loved playing this game with you. Your dedication to the memes was nothing short of legendary.

I apologise for being a coward although when I read that post telling me to NK you, I literally laughed out loud at my screen. It was awesome!

You know, there was a very small part of me that toyed with killing G-Man or Vomps last night....

But realistically, it would have been either you or splints at lylo.

Just goes to show - maybe I WAS a coward. Willing after NKing G-Man would have been an epic way to go.

But I had my gameplan mapped out for a long time beforehand and I needed to stick to it. JJ, did you purchase a NK protect on the night I killed DDL?

Honestly, Golden the Coward , I can't really fault you for not killing me. As a mafioso, your sole purpose is to use whatever resources are available to you to win the game. Since nobody rolechecked me or otherwise had solid intel pointing at me being a civvie, nobody had my back and I became little more than a resource in your tool chest. You did the right thing by keeping me alive for the final lynch. My plea for death was sincere because I could see the writing on the walls. I don't feel that I specifically cost the civvies the game but I felt progressively worse each day after the Bass lynch because my poor civvie instincts bit me in the butt.

I thought that the civvies would be able to re-organize and catch the last baddie if I was NK'ed Night 6. I was trying to see if I could bend the last mafia to my will. While my flair for the dramatic shone through, apparently I need to work on my persuasive writing a tad. :P You didn't bend to my will and I thought that campaigning for my own lynch on Day 7 was a dumb idea. I thought about asking for death again Night 7 but at that point I thought the remaining civvies might be too confused by my death to re-organize.

G-Man -- your methods may have been grating at times, but you were always putting forth good effort. especially late in the game, you produced as much good content as anyone else and gave it your all.

I apologize to everyone who was ever annoyed by the picture thing. I truly felt that giving in to thread pressure would have made me look even worse. Plus the memes were my saving grace. Posting only in pictures was a little too limiting for me after a few days.

You, sir, are a fearsome competitor and I will certainly keep in mind that killing you before mid-game is a must whenever I am bad.

That said, even though I did go all out in terms of time, I feel like my motivation and methods were also more effective than in other recent games, despite missteps along the way (Epi, got lucky with Elo, G-Man, etc.).

Hahahahahahahaha lmao.

I'm glad I wasn't wrong about 3-J or Splints. Sadly though, Golden the Coward played me like a sucker until the last half of the final day. Even then I wasn't 100% sure.

I think that all of us civvies had a lot of wrong suspicions, but what was great was that we really worked together as a team, and that is why we ALMOST won. I think that Gman was right I probably wouldn't have changed my mind, but my 1,2,3 suspicion list was a lot closer until I felt like Gman was just taunting me and trying to rile me up into an early vote. (since he wasn't bad probably not what he was doing after all but it's what I felt like at the time.) I also thought that maybe he had figured out my role and so he knew I was waiting to vote because mine effected those around me on the poll, and was going to use that to his advantage.

I can see how you thought I might have been taunting you. I certainly tried to frame it that way. I was trying to put as much pressure on you as possible to see if you would crack as the last mafioso. When you didn't I became reasonably confident (my 60% number probably ticked up to maybe 70% in the last 15 minutes or so) that Golden the Coward was the way to vote. Sadly, by this point we had all but run out of time for me to put together any kind of cohesive argument. I was pretty sure Vomp was just stringing me along anyway and would vote for me after I voted or if someone else voted for me first. And had I even tried to make an argument, I don't think you or Vomp would have gone for it. It's okay. I should have done the tin foil reads and pressure posts a day sooner. In that way, my laziness, not my picture posting, sealed my fate and contributed to the civvie loss.

[Vompatti]

I can guarantee you vompatti sent you the watercooling video, DDL.

Why is that?

Water cooling is expensive in Finalnd.

ture

[Roxy]

Congrats Golden! Without you replacing in we would have lost! You're the one brotha! <3

[Tangrowth]

Oh, my other favourite bit of the game other than the rap was this:

This series absolutely made my day. It's also the point at which I knew you would be dying that night. "you should have killed me last night" lol - it was too good to pass up.

MP, I loved your game this game. It was equal parts awesome and hilarious.

Haha, I'm glad you liked it. Honestly, I was just bullshitting, but I started thinking that those three all had a good chance of being bad, and wanted to apply some serious pressure.

Turns out my instincts weren't MUCH better than usual, but I tried.

I think that all of us civvies had a lot of wrong suspicions, but what was great was that we really worked together as a team, and that is why we ALMOST won

I agree 100% with this.

[Tangrowth]

So if Vomps was Von Mises, who did he choose to have BTSC with?

[Tangrowth]

Also, anyone who played this game should seriously consider playing Dom's game .

I think he needs about 10 more players before it can start.

[Vompatti]

So if Vomps was Von Mises, who did he choose to have BTSC with?

JJJ and G-Man, plus a couple of people who got NK'd the same night I chose them, including you I think.

[Sloonei]

So Town Golden gets lynched on Day 1, but scum Golden floats through untouched for 4 days?

Great game. I wish I could have been a part of it for longer and look forward to more games with y'all.

[Tangrowth]

So if Vomps was Von Mises, who did he choose to have BTSC with?

JJJ and G-Man, plus a couple of people who got NK'd the same night I chose them, including you I think.

Damn, that's a bummer. I would have really enjoyed that BTSC!

Thankfully, I was reading your meta pretty strongly as town regardless, considering I usually have no idea. I don't know, call it gut. I just didn't really think you were a baddie this game. That explains why some others were semi-vouching for you though, especially G-Man at the end.

So Town Golden gets lynched on Day 1, but scum Golden floats through untouched for 4 days?

Great game. I wish I could have been a part of it for longer and look forward to more games with y'all.

Sloonei, I just have to say it was an absolute pleasure getting to play with you after I had to back out of Mafia #85, even if you only lived through Night 2. I definitely look forward to playing with you in more games here and at RYM.

And I know, right? That's how it used to work for me too, Golden, when I had a streak of a few gambits a couple of years back. Then no one trusted me ever again.

[Tangrowth]

It's really funny how sometimes you pour your heart and soul into explaining your thoughts as a civilian and people don't believe you, whereas when you're a mafia and lying about it, people will sometimes more easily find you genuine. That doesn't happen as often for me, but it did a couple times in the past, and I've noticed this phenomenon in other players so many times over the years.

[Golden]

Congrats Golden! Without you replacing in we would have lost! You're the one brotha! <3

<3 I wish I'd been able to play longer with you, Roxy.

[Russtifinko]

Hostly Thank-Yous

First off, one man deserves credit for how well this game turned out....me.

Just kidding! thellama73 did roughly 95% of the work of making this game what it was. I came to him with the idea (oh my God, was it...two summers ago??), and he absolutely ran with it. He created most of the role and item powers, including one of the most epic roles of all time for one of the best economists of all time, John Nash,who as someone already pointed out coincidentally passed away during the game. He also pulled double duty in this game as Host in Control of Night Things, which thanks partly to the items was a tremendous amount of work, and Mod, which did require some time on a few occasions. He did splendidly in both roles throughout, and even covered my posting duties when I was indisposed. I had a great time doing this, and he was a huge part of that.

Of course, the players this game were absolutely incredible. I really thought that the new blood injected some life into the game, and seeing what was or wasn't clear to the newbies was very enlightening for me as a host, since I've only ever played on The Syndicate and accept all of our little quirks as mafia standards. We also set a post record for a speed game! Admittedly, being 48/24 helped, but it is still quite a feat. The newbies deserve a lot of credit for this, especially since two very talkative players, Epi and MM, died early on.

The civvies played a hell of a game, and actually had me rooting for them for large stretches of time (sorry, Golden). I have never once on this site seen three successful lynches in a row, and you all deserved a win, but you had defeat snatched form the jaws of victory.

There were some incredible individual performances, as well. Golden played, hands down, the best baddie game I have ever seen in my mafia career. His entire team died, and a decent number of players had been suspicious of his predecessor, BWT, but he somehow managed to turn it all around and come out on top. To be honest, I still don't quite understand ho he pulled it off. G-Man did something we've never seen before in a game, and probably inspired some new role mechanics here. I know that next time I am a baddie, I fear JJJ as much as anyone on the site. This is truly just the tip of the iceberg - everyone contributed something that helped make this, in my humble opinion, a terrific game, and you all deserve some credit for that.

[Russtifinko]

Now, for some reveals!

1) JJJ, I know you were saying all game that you went 0fer on Night protects, but you were wrong! You actually protected Black Rock from Elohcin on Night 1, which turned out to be pretty big. This caused a lot of confusion, because MP copied her power that Night and killed Epi, so most people thought that MP has a power steal instead of a copy for a long time afterward.

2) TH, as he said, came extremely close to being able to protect himself the Night he was killed. (And by the way, he did an incredible job as Akerlof and handled his role extremely well, even with a host who takes a strong stance against info dumping, as some of you found out. His problem was this: he needed to produce his Nightly resource and then trade in resources for the protection to get it. All Night actions, however, occur at exactly the same time at the end of Night, so just as he got all the pieces he needed for his item, he was killed without being able to purchase it. This was reflected in the Night post.

3) sanmateo actually did have a lynch stop the Day he was lynched...for a while. It was confiscated because he discussed it in thread. This was due in part to a miscommunication between the host. It was a clear violation of Rule 3 on the first page, and it also definitely amount to a role hint: a number of players speculated that he must be Solow or the civvie item upgrader. However, I missed that llama had actually said later on in the thread that talking about items was ok. (You all posted a lot, alright?) This tripped up a few people, who were also punished. However, for sanmateo it was too late: by the time Vomps pointed out what llama had said, sanmateo was dead. To his credit, he handled it as classily as possible, and it was a situation that would have very much frustrated me as a player. I am still considering awarding him the win postmortem.

Of course, this had a huge impact on the game. If sanmateo had stopped the lynch, Golden would likely have had to survive an extra phase. My personal belief is that he still would have pulled it off: the most likely result after sanmateo stopped the lynch was that he would've been lynched again, imo, and even if he weren't, Golden was so low on everyone's list at the end of the game that I think pulling off an extra Day would have been very very doable. Especially considering fingersplints was bound to vote for at least 2 people due to her role power.

So, I do owe the civvies an apology for a hostly...inconsistency. Again, watching things as they unfolded, Golden winning would still have been the most likely scenario, but I don't know that for sure.

Llama and I actually did field quite a few questions about how production of guns and butter, sales, and items worked, and as I mentioned, more than one player was confused about what constituted info dumping with regards to items. So I thank you all for bearing with me on those things and for making this an incredible game despite the setbacks you experienced.

[Russtifinko]

That's all I can think of to say that's of significance for now. However, if you have any questions about anything that occurred, ask and it shall be revealed unto you.

[Russtifinko]

I thought of a few more! Sorry for the spam.

G-Man's sign-off to this game was, hands down, the best one I have ever seen.

Also, MP was nearly modkilled for being too obvious about having info. He and llama were able to placate me, but it seems from the postgame that most players had figured out a variant of what was up. If I had to do it all over again, I can't honestly say whether I would dead him or not.]

When the civvies went up 7-1, I was worried that we had made an unbalanced game, and that specifically a straight civilian role check with no mitigating factors was too strong. Obviously, that proved not to be as big a concern as I had feared.

[Tangrowth]

Thanks for elaborating, Russ!

I was really confused as to how Elo wasn't able to kill N1, after I triple checked with you and Llama that I didn't steal the NK and I couldn't see a role blocker anywhere, but that explains it!

I felt terrible for my 'too obvious' switcheroo on splints, so I appreciate the leniency there, but I was in a tough spot since I: (1) wanted to bait the NK, (2) I wanted to ensure splints wasn't lynched, and I knew she very well could due to the insane heat that was surrounding her, and (3) I had declared her to be mafia with such certainty I really didn't know what to do.

I intended to build up to it more subtly, instead of going in reverse (sudden turnaround, then trying to place less confidence on it after the fact), but my schedule was ridiculously overloaded around the start of D4 and I knew I shouldn't go into the thread for at least the first 24 hours of that period (but I ended up doing so anyway, so this was moot), so I panicked, fearing I would come back to early votes on splints (since we had seen earlier votes before), and didn't craft my first post after the Night period with nearly as careful of wording as I wanted. I was hoping it'd be OK since I tend to overexaggerate all the time in RL and mafia (being "99%" sure or "100%" sure and then calling out the entire baddie team, etc. etc.), but I was stuck in a hard place trying to make a post in a minute or two that conveyed a sense of urgency, the fact that I really think splints shouldn't be lynched even though I just got done tunneling her to an extreme, and still not break the rules yet try to seem like I have information to bait the NK.

If I could redo it, I definitely would have approached the situation differently, and worded it more subtly, but I'm not sure exactly what I would have said. Additionally, I'm not sure whether baiting the NK was the way to go, but I figured Turnip Head would be a goner N4 if I hadn't, and that splints might have been fucked after I died if people suspected I didn't have information on her.

I definitely dug myself a hole with the whole situation, but I am glad I checked splints anyway, otherwise she would have definitely been lynched D4 or D5, even if I had 100% confirmation on Roxy instead (and I almost did).

[Russtifinko]

And as you may have figured out, MP, TH actually checked Roxy the very same Night you were thinking of doing the same!

[Tangrowth]

I know, right! So glad I didn't do that.

Originally, I had actually intended to check Bass, before I decided on either splints or Roxy (and then couldn't decide on which one, lol). Probably good I didn't do that either.

Again, apologies for the obvious switcheroo. I panicked big time. Lol. I should have just waited and come to the thread later that night with my thoughts when I wasn't in the middle of working on something.

[Tangrowth]

All the more reason I was fine with becoming NK bait too was the fact that I randomly received the NK on N1 and the role check on N3. I figured I was already incredibly lucky and that Turnip Head could do so much more good with his powers than I could at that point.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

[Epignosis]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

I have developed a highly nuanced opinion of this subject. I would love to write about it, but I haven't done so yet, and I'm boozing, and about to watch some bullshit TV program.

[Golden]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

This is a subject of much debate in our 'open set up' sites, and has been for all time I mean, in some ways you could say your role was an 'info role' and you were 'infodumping' by having contests happen in the thread, so there is definitely a subjective standard in play.

TH played his role well within the confines of Russti's rules, I thought.

[Tangrowth]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

Different hosts and players have very different opinions on infodumping and we've continually had debates about this. I would say that Russ, Dom, and DharmaHelper are the three people at this site who are the strictest against info dumping, but the site culture is pretty much in general agreement on it in its most broad form, since all of our games (except one) have been historically open setup.

Personally, I feel I am much more loose about it than many; I am really bothered only when it is blatant and requires no skill, and my players make statements such as "I know DDL is bad" or "I know DDL is good".

For many, myself included, the rule makes the game of mafia much more nuanced. It takes no skill to check someone with your power and then go into the thread and say "so and so is mafia", then ending the game for that player, and thereafter getting yourself NKed. Instead, despite the role madness setup of many of our games, the game thread itself still maintains a strict form of the hunt. Players must instead challenge themselves to disseminate anything learned outside of the thread into their posts in a nuanced fashion. Games have become increasingly unconventional and very heavy on role madness here due mostly to demand, since many of us don't like playing vanilla games as much. It's partly ingrained in Lostpedia-based culture, as well as preferred by those I brought over from ProgArchives and other facets of my life.

What you say has some truth, though, and many hosts around here have stopped including straight-up cops in their games.

In Death Note, I had made Mogi a modified cop role in that, if he was silent for 48 straight hours, he could gain a role check that revealed to him that person's role with 50% accuracy. There was a 50% chance he would get the correct role, but a 50% chance that it was a randomly selected role from all roles in the game. I had tons of secrets in that game, though, so no one knew what Mogi's role actually did until it was revealed about halfway through the game. Funnily enough, Russ actually had that role. Russ never knew whether I was going to reveal the secrets or not, so he had the risk of playing it blatantly and trying to cash as many role checks as possible, yet risk outing himself later and getting NKed if I ever revealed them, or playing it safe but not getting near as many role checks. He did the former.

Linki with Epi and Golden: I am very intrigued by Epi's elaboration on this matter, though I do know his general view on it already. I also agree with Golden that Turnip Head played the role absolutely brilliantly.

[S~V~S]

What would have happened had someone refused to participate in a contest? Like I am fairly private; I don't upload pictures of myself to Facebook, for instance. I would NOT have made a video of myself singing or doing anything else, lol.

What were the punishments for refusing a contest? Did anyone refuse?

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

[Epignosis]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

[Tangrowth]

I almost refused to do the singing contest because I felt really embarrassed about it. Then I thought I probably would just try to loosen up and do it anyway, but forgot about it amid my busy schedule and in dogpeeing in the thread, actually, until Llama reminded me.

I think that Russ and Llama would have been disappointed and I would have lost by default, since I did ask them if I could just upload a partial video (like 10 seconds), but I think that's it. Either of them can correct me though, since I'm not entirely sure.

My punishment for losing was that I couldn't produce or sell for the Night.

[Tangrowth]

It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

QFT

[Dragon D. Luffy]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

This is a subject of much debate in our 'open set up' sites, and has been for all time I mean, in some ways you could say your role was an 'info role' and you were 'infodumping' by having contests happen in the thread, so there is definitely a subjective standard in play.

TH played his role well within the confines of Russti's rules, I thought.

Of course I was, and I was intentionally timing my games so I would get myself confirmed on lylo. Only reason that did not happen was that I died earlier.

But if a mod noticed it, should they modkill me for it? Because every ability in a mafia game comes with the ihnerent potential to "info dump", as long as the player is smart/creative enough to use it. Should mods change rules the on the fly so they can curb any attempt from the players to use their roles to produce in-thread info?

The problem is the subjectiveness. It doesn't specify what a player can or cannot do, just a big "no info dumping" rule by the mod which they can enforce depending on how they think the game is going on. And that's uncompetitive in my opinion, because I think good games should have rules clearly speficied before they start, which as little input from the mod during the game as possible.

Personally, if I am to design a game to stop cops from breaking it, I'll probably try to do it using game mechanics. One obvious way it to implement millers and godfathers, or some more elaborated versions of those. so investigations become a suggestion instead of a certain read. Another one is to limit the number of investigations a cop can do. Another one is to simply reduce the rate of information roles by number of players in the game. But I want my game to be balanced before it starts, not try counter-attack the players' exploits as they play it.

Personally, I feel I am much more loose about it than many; I am really bothered only when it is blatant and requires no skill, and my players make statements such as "I know DDL is bad" or "I know DDL is good".

I agree with you, I think cops can ruin a game of mafia if they are let loose. The worst thing in being a baddie is being outed by a cop.

I just don't like approaches to solving the problem that force the players to pretend they don't know things they do, or that rely on subjective rules that depend on mod interpretations. I think there are more elegant ways of solving the issue.

What would have happened had someone refused to participate in a contest? Like I am fairly private; I don't upload pictures of myself to Facebook, for instance. I would NOT have made a video of myself singing or doing anything else, lol.

What were the punishments for refusing a contest? Did anyone refuse?

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

It would have counted as if you had lost the contest (and you'd have lost guns/butter if I'm not wrong). That's what happened to aether, in fact.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

^ broken quotes are broken. Please note that I tried to quote MP's and SVS's posts separately.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

[G-Man]

I loved the idea of the singing contest and made the video but I had the video set to private at first. I sent the link to our hosts hoping they could view it because they had the direct link. A few hours after the deadline, I saw that I had been notified that the video wouldn't play for them. I think they gave us both an extra 24 hours to get the videos in.



The hardest part for me was choosing a song to sing. I wasn't sure if I should be serious or silly. Here's the shortlist I came up with:

"Under Pressure" by Queen and David Bowie (my ultimate choice because it had me going all over the place vocally and I LOVE this song)

"The Greatest Man That Ever Lived" by Weezer (I joked in LMS3 that this was my theme song- I actually sing it on my way to work everyday as a pick-me-up)

"Edelweiss" from The Sound of Music (gorgeous song and it's safe for my low range but I didn't want people to think I was claiming or hinting at being Menger)

"I Believe in a Thing Called Love" by The Darkness (I would have gotten too into this one and I realized that I didn't want any videos of me gyrating and thrusting on the internet)

"Summer" from Frozen (because who doesn't love Olaf?)

"It's Not Unusual" by Tom Jones (scrapped it because I didn't have enough time to choreograph my own version of The Carlton dance)

[Tangrowth]

DDL, I fixed your quotes for you.

I can understand your PoV. Inevitably, it depends on how the Host wants to run it, and I have noticed that Hosts have been increasingly experimenting on ways to counteract it using game mechanics instead of the way Russ included a straight-up cop here. It was intriguing to play with a standard cop role though.

I do think that there is inevitable subjectivity involved in any game though, since there always can be cheating or asshattery, particularly so when games become more and more unconventional.

[Epignosis]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

I never win a game in this format. I'm not complaining.

[Tangrowth]

"I Believe in a Thing Called Love" by The Darkness (I would have gotten too into this one and I realized that I didn't want any videos of me gyrating and thrusting on the internet)

[Dragon D. Luffy]

DDL, I fixed your quotes for you.

I can understand your PoV. Inevitably, it depends on how the Host wants to run it, and I have noticed that Hosts have been increasingly experimenting on ways to counteract it using game mechanics instead of the way Russ included a straight-up cop here. It was intriguing to play with a standard cop role though.

I do think that there is inevitable subjectivity involved in any game though, since there always can be cheating or asshattery, particularly so when games become more and more unconventional.

Yes, some things are impossible to predict. You think you have everything covered then people use 2 roles at the same time ina way you weren't expecting and now you have to evaluate how those roles interact, and make a decision on the fly. It's hard to be completely objective when modding.

But I can try.

In Death Note, I had made Mogi a modified cop role in that, if he was silent for 48 straight hours, he could gain a role check that revealed to him that person's role with 50% accuracy. There was a 50% chance he would get the correct role, but a 50% chance that it was a randomly selected role from all roles in the game. I had tons of secrets in that game, though, so no one knew what Mogi's role actually did until it was revealed about halfway through the game. Funnily enough, Russ actually had that role. Russ never knew whether I was going to reveal the secrets or not, so he had the risk of playing it blatantly and trying to cash as many role checks as possible, yet risk outing himself later and getting NKed if I ever revealed them, or playing it safe but not getting near as many role checks. He did the former.

I like this. It's the kind of anti-cop mechanics I was talking about.

One game I hosted once had mafia have a one-shot ability that made every cop get inverted results for a cycle. They used it on day 1, and it almost made mafia win the game. Because town followed the results of an investigation blindly, and when it was wrong, they also blindly lynched the cop in the following day. So the idea is that town should have relied on their brains ALONG with the abilitiy instead of just the ability.

Unfortunately town ended up winning for role dumping because I had put too many masons on the game, but that's something I wanna correct in my next one.

[Tangrowth]

I do think that there is inevitable subjectivity involved in any game though, since there always can be cheating or asshattery, particularly so when games become more and more unconventional.

This is worded horribly, sorry.

I mean, I think there is inevitable subjectivity and subjectivity increases with unconventionality. Two examples of subjectivity are how the Host wants to deal with various cheating or asshattery (do you modkill them or punish them in another way?). There's also inactivity and how each Host wants to handle that.

Of course, a Host can choose to deal with only those issues and no subjectivity in terms of the game setup by making a game vanilla completely, or by making it role madness but making the roles unconventional and ambiguous. Again, depends on what the Host wants for his or her game.

[Epignosis]

Make info rare. That's the obvious answer.

[Epignosis]

And "info" doesn't just mean things people learn. Civilian BTSC (Masons?) is info.

Keep it rare in any game of any setting.

[Tangrowth]

In Death Note, I had made Mogi a modified cop role in that, if he was silent for 48 straight hours, he could gain a role check that revealed to him that person's role with 50% accuracy. There was a 50% chance he would get the correct role, but a 50% chance that it was a randomly selected role from all roles in the game. I had tons of secrets in that game, though, so no one knew what Mogi's role actually did until it was revealed about halfway through the game. Funnily enough, Russ actually had that role. Russ never knew whether I was going to reveal the secrets or not, so he had the risk of playing it blatantly and trying to cash as many role checks as possible, yet risk outing himself later and getting NKed if I ever revealed them, or playing it safe but not getting near as many role checks. He did the former.

I like this. It's the kind of anti-cop mechanics I was talking about.

One game I hosted once had mafia have a one-shot ability that made every cop get inverted results for a cycle. They used it on day 1, and it almost made mafia win the game. Because town followed the results of an investigation blindly, and when it was wrong, they also blindly lynched the cop in the following day. So the idea is that town should have relied on their brains ALONG with the abilitiy instead of just the ability.

Unfortunately town ended up winning for role dumping because I had put too many masons on the game, but that's something I wanna correct in my next one.

I would actually say with confidence that there are more roles in games here like Mogi (unconventional takes on a standard role) or Nash (unconventional role) than Akerlof (straight-up standard role), that's for sure.

Re: the bolded/italicized, I love that. Awesome ability.

[Tangrowth]

Make info rare. That's the obvious answer.

Yeah, that's definitely an answer. Lol.

I personally have a liking of info roles though; I'd rather include them and just make them weird. :P