Return to “Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]”
glad it was for that reasonBass_the_Clever wrote:You kept bringing my name up.Sloonei wrote:Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game
[2]Epignosis wrote:This game sucks because I am still dead.
it's easy enough iso and search specifically for votes and thingsVompatti wrote:I'd have to browse through the thread to find out and it doesn't seem worth the trouble.Sloonei wrote:Do you have anything to say about how and when anyone voted?Vompatti wrote:I think we can discuss how and when everyone voted, for example, and what that might imply, but we should do that in concise sentences.Sloonei wrote:Do you then think there is no value in "scum hunting"/trying to find out who's bad?
Do you have anything to say about how and when anyone voted?Vompatti wrote:I think we can discuss how and when everyone voted, for example, and what that might imply, but we should do that in concise sentences.Sloonei wrote:Do you then think there is no value in "scum hunting"/trying to find out who's bad?
Would you say that her flip as a bad person lends verification to the beliefs some of us held that she was bad?Vompatti wrote:Because a) there's no reason to believe she's bad and b) flooding the thread only benefits those who intend to obscure the facts.Sloonei wrote:why?Vompatti wrote:I suspect everyone who rode the Eloh bandwagon and/or posts a lot.Sloonei wrote:do you have reasons for maybe thinking i'm a bit of a bad guy? or is it just a Thing?Vompatti wrote: Perhaps just a bit.
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I was working with the theory here that scum players might have seen the bandwagon on Eloh and assumed she was a civilian, and would then back off or avoid the wagon to avoid being associated with the lynch of a townie. So I'm looking for reasons, indirect or direct, why these players would have avoided voting for Elohcin.Sloonei wrote:Dragon, fingersplints, Turnip Head, vomp, and Roxy all voted for someone other than Eloh. I am making nothing of this yet, just pointing out that it's a reality and something which may be worth pursuing later.
The people who voted for Eloh are in no way abovd suspicion for doing so, of course.
I don't think anyone else shared, or at least voiced, these reads of Elohcin. It looks a bit odd to me that such an overwhelming favorite for the lynch was specifically called good by Turnip Head here.Turnip Head wrote:@MP, I think Elo has reacted to the suspicion of her just as emotionally as you have. She sees it her way, and her way is the right way, probably because she's civ. I actually think she'd be more inclined to explain her vote if she were bad, because she would feel like she needs a good explanation.
Fact is, regardless of Elo's own defense, her reads progression of both you AND Golden seems organic to me. She seemed to carefully considerate in her read of you in particular, MP. I don't know if you read it that way, but that's how I read it, and I don't know that a baddie-Elo would go to such lengths and get involved in the argument with you. She cites my case on Golden as a reason to vote for him, and we can debate the merits of her voting based on that, but she's far from the only person in this game to make a change in their read, and that's something civvies tend to do more often than baddies anyways.
So you could say I'm reading her the exact opposite way that you are.
why?Vompatti wrote:I suspect everyone who rode the Eloh bandwagon and/or posts a lot.Sloonei wrote:do you have reasons for maybe thinking i'm a bit of a bad guy? or is it just a Thing?Vompatti wrote: Perhaps just a bit.
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do you have reasons for maybe thinking i'm a bit of a bad guy? or is it just a Thing?Vompatti wrote: Perhaps just a bit.
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I'm a professional, you need not worry about me.Vompatti wrote:No but it might make you insane.Sloonei wrote:Does being your psychiatrist make me bad?Vompatti wrote:That's a bit of a personal question.Sloonei wrote:why do you feel this way?Vompatti wrote:Yes.Sloonei wrote:are you suggesting that all of the top posters are scum?Vompatti wrote:This game is a perfect reflection of real life economics: the mafia are so loud that it's hopeless for us innocent civilians to voice our opinion.
Does being your psychiatrist make me bad?Vompatti wrote:That's a bit of a personal question.Sloonei wrote:why do you feel this way?Vompatti wrote:Yes.Sloonei wrote:are you suggesting that all of the top posters are scum?Vompatti wrote:This game is a perfect reflection of real life economics: the mafia are so loud that it's hopeless for us innocent civilians to voice our opinion.
I have mixed feelings about the theory that her lynch should be treated as a town lynch. She definitely exhibited anti-town behavior and there was no doubt some real scum hunting which helped drive us to her lynch. But any scum players on or off the bandwagon would have assumed we were lynching a townie, or at least not one of their own, so they would have acted accordingly. Both things are important to keep in mind.acrosstheaether wrote:I disagree about the notion that Elo's flip should be treated as a townie lynch though. Many people (including myself) would have been town, and read her behaviour as generally anti-town, rather than a mafia-tell in particular.
I understand why this thought would occur to a townie, but i'm still a bit worried about the reason behind why ot was posted in the thread. It seems like it could be eiter one of a scum player trying to engage the town in a conversation about something other than scum hunting, or a scum player making observations about a town power role because that's genuinely what they're trying to discern.acrosstheaether wrote:I'm thinking, is there anyone in particular who was most adamantly pushing for Elo's lynch? Perhaps that person is Adam Smith.
why do you feel this way?Vompatti wrote:Yes.Sloonei wrote:are you suggesting that all of the top posters are scum?Vompatti wrote:This game is a perfect reflection of real life economics: the mafia are so loud that it's hopeless for us innocent civilians to voice our opinion.
are you suggesting that all of the top posters are scum?Vompatti wrote:This game is a perfect reflection of real life economics: the mafia are so loud that it's hopeless for us innocent civilians to voice our opinion.
And then there's this post again, which I've already asked him to explain. I suppose I'm just making this post to re-emphasize that this is the thing I most want Dragon to provide an answer for. Why are these four your scum reads at this point in the game?Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Alright. I'll try to follow the format some way. Imma vote based on alpha order:JaggedJimmyJay wrote:by all means, let's see them. no neutrals allowed.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Also JJJ, I wish I could have took part in your game, but I wasn't online at the time. Is it too late to post my reads? I wanna make some points first though.
i can't include your reads in the table though. the rapid-fire setup is the whole point.
acrossaether: mafia
Bass_The_Clever: town
birdwithteet: mafia
Black Rock: town
fingersplints: town
G-man: town
JJJ: town
MP: town
Roxy: mafia
sanmateo: town
Sloonei: mafia
TunyBubbles: town
Turnip: town
Vombat: town
I don't think I agree with this point, and something feels like an attempt at misdirection. "These people are suspecting me because of my vote, they must be scum."Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Anyway, what I wanted to say: there have been a few people saying that my vote of aether was easy (Turnip) or a cop out (bwt), because I could have easily been a mafioso trying to avoid responsibility for a likely town lynch. Now, consider one thing: if one of the mafia is among the ones who voted for Elo, what would they try to say? I believe they would be saying exactly that: that the ones who did not vote for Elo were looking for a cop out. It's simple really. They'd want to avoid the possible heat for lynching a townie, and then accuse the ones who didn't of trying to avoid heat.
And this is where you really lose me. "Look at me, I'm being risky. No scum would ever be risky, right?" Feels like a totally unnecessary and inefficient line of self-defense. This paragraph reeks of scumminess, unfortunately.Now look at the opposite side: I called a lot of attention to myself for my vote. Two people voted for me, and a third one said he was very inclined to do so. I expect my name to appear lower in the upcoming rainbow lists. Do you call that easy? I took a high risk at doing that. Now, do you know which ones I think were the easy votes? The guys who voted Elo at the end of the phase. With one hour left. At that point, it was nearly impossible for the lynch to change. Their votes would have absolutely zero effect on the game. Zero. And they could start trying to blame the non-Elo voters early. If that isn't an easy vote, I don't know what it is.
This is more of the same. He's openly WIFOMing by acknowledging the WIFOM. Perhaps a bit too conscious of the attention this post will draw him.Of course, I assume at least half of you are now thinking: WIFOM! Yes, it's a huge WIFOM. If I were mafia, the most logical strategy for me would be to come here and trying to bury your suspicions on me under a mountain of WIFOM. I know that. But I'm not posting this because I want to defend myself. I'm posting this because, under the assumption that mafia was among the final Elo voters (G-Man, Sloonei, JJJ and Bass), this becomes specially interesting:
I can dig the questioning, but I'm not sure I buy into them as a sincere effort to scum hunt. My vote was never in jeopardy of going to anyone other than Bass or Elohcin according to everything I stated publicly. Did I ever give you any indication that I would want to vote for another player? I think I was pretty vocal about both Elohcin and Bass, and I also think I'v demonstrated that I'm going to hold on to my votes as carefully as I'm able to in this game. I waited as long as I did because I don't want to cast a premature vote early in the Day and end up regretting it later. By the time I finally voted, the tally was pretty much wrapped up, yes, but it was a result that I had supported all day long.Do you only vote for people who are likely to win bandwagons? I said that because you waited the entire phase to cast a vote, and only did so when the chance of your voting amounting to anything was near zero. You spent the phase talking about deciding between Bass and Elo, but as the inevitable Elo bandwagon formed, no signs were given to a Bass wagon happening. In fact he got zero votes. But you waited until the phase was pretty much over to join the Elo wagon. Your vote ended up being completely useless. So why use it on Elo?Sloonei wrote:I decided I should vote for Elohcin, and now it seems my vote would put her over the edge completely, barring some serious gun/butter action.JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i believe we only have 6 votes left in the field and currently the tally leader is up by 4. so i don't feel like i have many things i can do with mine.
is anyone else who hasn't voted still around to talk about this?
Her and Bass remain my top two suspects, and the bass wagon does not seem to have much momentum at the moment, so it makes the most sense for me to vote Elohcin.
Don't you think there might be a better use for your vote? For example, pushing a player who you suspect for some reason? Like Bass, for example, or another one? Myself, I didn't have much hope that aether would be lynched, with Elo having 4 votes at that point (and her lynch train forming since night 1). I decided to do something useful with it and go after a player most were ignoring, to force people to analyse her and force her to show up (the later unfortunately didn't happen).
I actually can get behind his questioning of birdwithteeth here, but it's beginning to feel a bit like he's looking too hard at these votes (or no-votes) and trying to pull something out to spin into a case. I don't feel very good about this post overall.Same point here. Why throwing a vote that has no chance of changing anything?JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i threw my vote on Elo. every other option is mathematically impossible. and she's a red read. so cool beans.
You did point right after that that you were aware of the possibility of mafia knowing the lynch was inevitable though, which is interesting. If you are mafia, you are one of the most self-aware players I've ever seen.
Calls me a cop out, but doesn't vote. Could be real life, but the guy was pretty active at the end of the phase. So am I too believe that he stayed active for the entire final hour, and for some reason decided to wait until the last few minutes to vote, but then something happened and he had to look away from the computer at the exact time the phase ended?birdwithteeth11 wrote:SON OF A.....
I saw I had about 30 seconds left (I thought), went to click on the bubble next to Bass' name, and then went to vote....and it wouldn't accept my vote because it was past the deadline.Oh well.
But yeah, if I could have voted, I would have voted for Bass probably. DDL would be a close second for his pressing Elo on her Golden vote, and DDL's voicing suspicion of her, but then going with an aether vote which seemed like an easy cop-out to me.
Might as well finish catching up for now.
Linki: If Elo flips civ, I think DDL is definitely getting a closer look from me. The only person I remember having anything resembling a substantial case on her is MP. I feel like there was one more player but I can't remember right now who it is.
That, and I think it's more likely Elo comes up civ because of all the weak reasons IMO I saw for voting for her. Seemed like an easy target unfortunately.
Linki: Holy shit did NOT expect that at ALL!
Wouldn't it be better to just, you know, vote half an hour earlier? It's not like you would have changed anything, but at least you would have avoided the possible host punishment?
If anything, that is the cop out. Sure, he may be punished by the mod, but this isn't the first instance I've seen of a player eating a mod punishment on purpose just to be able to stay away from the fray.
Anyway, the point I'm making is, don't look just to the people who voted non-Elo. Look at the ones who voted Elo, specially the ones who did it near the end of the phase. Those are as likely of being "easy votes".
If anything, the ones who earned some towncred to me were the ones who voted Elo in the first 24 hours: TinyBubbles, MP and sanmateo. Because WIFOMs nowithstanding, voting so early on a possible town lynch would be an insane risk to mafia. And the heat they got because of that shows.
The rest? As suspicious as anyone.
Dragon was one of a few vocal players around at the start of the game and I did not know what to make of his presence there, and frankly still don't. He is a new player, and if there's one thing I learned from this Day 1 it's that there's a lot of different ways for players to pursue it. But this post is what stands out for me as the game's real starting point. It was the fist real observation about something substantial happening in the thread, imo. I liked the initiative at the time, but looking back under a microscope, it could also be a possibility that a scum player would want to get in there to start things off at the first thing they get to latch onto. Either way, Dragon saw something he could latch on to to start the thread and he did so.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:I'm curious too. This Day 0 has been fun, but it's hard to make reads on anyone when almost none of the posts are about the game. It's easier when everyone is accusing each other. I suppose that's what Day 1s are for.
Btw, I think it's very interesting how Jay started talking about making cases right after the second role was handed out. Which is interesting since the game was pretty much a blank state at that point. Though to be fair, he did say he had nothing at that point.
That could indicate an alignment change. If a player who has done nothing gets a new role and suddenly starts being proactive, it might mean a townie who became mafia, or vice-versa. Just a theory.
He's responding pretty directly to Bass here and I like the effort and the angles he takes in what appears to be genuine scumhunting.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Saying you want to keep an eye on someone is pretty much the same thing as suspecting them. You're not directly accusing them of being mafia, but you think there's something worth watching out for.Bass_the_Clever wrote: Can you please show me where I said I was suspected MP? I said I wanted to keep an eye on him because I felt like he was acting different this game. The I gave a short list of what I thought.
But you never pursued it, or anything for that matter. You just stayed neutral until you were in danger of getting lynched and you had to put a self defense vote.
Is that how you always play? I'm saying this because I remember someone mentioning you always play like this.
He makes this post, which I disagree with. It's always worth doing some analysis of the scum kill. Disagreeing with somebody does not have to mean they're scum, but when that person is actively discouraging some sort of game-relevant discussion, well...Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Honestly I don't see much point in analysing why mafia killed someone. That's WIFOM trap.
And if we apply Occam's Razor, the fact is that Metalmarsh was a player who wasn't really attracting suspicions from anyone, and was being fairly active, voicing suspicions on others and showing interest in the game. That's pretty much the kind of player mafia likes to get rid of.
And then he makes this post, making strategical suggestions for certain roles in the game. Something about this post has seemed odd since the time he made it, but I never really stopped to think about it.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:I would propose that if Adam Smith is still alive (hopefully he's not Metalmarsh), then he should try to build a case against Malthus, who he probably targetted last night. This game doesn't allow role reveals, but I suppose he can come up with some reason to call him bad and then tunnel on him, no?
There's also the possibility of him keeping targetting Malthus over and over to exploit his night kill. But I think that's a bad idea, because he gets free again as soon as Adam Smith dies. We should get rid of the bastard as soon as we can.
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Hmm... Turnip said he was voting for Bubbles but he didn't.
They don't really offer a lot, and the second one, about Bubbles, smells pretty strongly of waffles.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Bubbles vote was fishy af, felt like she isn't even trying.
"hey I'm a noob and I dont know how to play so imma drop a vote on someone everyone is suspecting and check out for the phase cya".
A lot of her posts feel like honest inexperience though.
Oh hey look, Jay already called him out for the exact same thing I just mentioned. There's an example of why he's a town read, I guess. BUT back to Dragon, his response to this feels a bit soft, like he acknowledges and gives in to what Jay is saying without really defending himself. I remember myself doing this exact same thing in the game on RYM a couple weeks ago when I was scum. When people pointed out oddities in my behavior, I agreed to the cases and just tried to shrug them off. I'm getting a lot of those vibes from this post, I don't like it.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:I guess I'm just tired? Between having to explain myself to Epi about 10 times (and to other people about 50), spending a few consecutive days thinking about barely anything other than this game, and then going through a lot of effort just to lynch a townie, I think I just burned my fuel. That day 1 was the most active phase in any game I've ever played.JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i find myself wondering about your effort level too, DDL. you started the game with a purpose, and even though it brought you some heat you seemed content to post at a torrent pace and stay involved. but over the last couple real-time days, your level of activity has waned directly relative to a decrease in pressure on you.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Bubbles vote was fishy af, felt like she isn't even trying.
"hey I'm a noob and I dont know how to play so imma drop a vote on someone everyone is suspecting and check out for the phase cya".
A lot of her posts feel like honest inexperience though.
why do you suppose that is?
It doesn't help that 90% of the posts in this phase are being made by 2 people and most other players are making themselves hard to read by not posting.
I'm trying to be more moderate this time around. And focusing on people I suspect instead of trying to analyse every sinlge player.
Names Elohcin as his main suspect, a popular thing to do yesterday, offers a weak neutral read on Bass, and then throws in aether as a third name because she's quiet and an easy target at this point. He would end up voting for aether, the only one to do so, instead of Elohcin and a part of me wants to look at that as Dragon perhaps distancing himself from what he thought would be a townie lynch while hopping on to another quieter bandwagon.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Before you ask who I'm suspecting, Elo is main my one. Though she made herself somewhat better by at least trying to explain herself. But I'd vote her now if I had to choose.
Bass has gotten a little better in my eyes. His defenses seem legit. I guess I'm back to neutral on him.
Acrosstheater is one that is going back to being scummy. She is basically Tinybubbles without the noob card. Didn't vote, doesn't post, doesn't produce anything, doesn't care. Her most useful post in the game was the one where she said he is useless on day 1.
what do you mean by "called the mafia team"? If you're referring to his post I just pointed to, he didn't really call the whole team. Jay called for quick gut reads on all the players, and dragon came out with those 4 people.sanmateo wrote:i think it's odd that ddl called the entire mafia team now. granted i wouldve done that 3 times by now if we were on rym but cant rely on previous games for most players here and neither can he. also just going in and doing 3 massive paragraphs of awful wifom isnt ok just because you admit its wifom
why am I mafia?Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Alright. I'll try to follow the format some way. Imma vote based on alpha order:JaggedJimmyJay wrote:by all means, let's see them. no neutrals allowed.Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Also JJJ, I wish I could have took part in your game, but I wasn't online at the time. Is it too late to post my reads? I wanna make some points first though.
i can't include your reads in the table though. the rapid-fire setup is the whole point.
acrossaether: mafia
Bass_The_Clever: town
birdwithteet: mafia
Black Rock: town
fingersplints: town
G-man: town
JJJ: town
MP: town
Roxy: mafia
sanmateo: town
Sloonei: mafia
TunyBubbles: town
Turnip: town
Vombat: town
I'll iso him later as well.sanmateo wrote:wb ddl?Sloonei wrote:Am I one of the super posters? Because I think I'm town. I've also got a strong town read on Jay, as I've said, and a slightly weaker town read on MP. Turnip Head, if he's also in this group, is mostly a null read until further notice. I still haven't seen enough discussion about him, and I need to ISO him. I'll get to that before the night ends. sanmateo is a town read.Bass_the_Clever wrote:Well can you answer the question? You don't have to if you don't want.
What about you?
Am I one of the super posters? Because I think I'm town. I've also got a strong town read on Jay, as I've said, and a slightly weaker town read on MP. Turnip Head, if he's also in this group, is mostly a null read until further notice. I still haven't seen enough discussion about him, and I need to ISO him. I'll get to that before the night ends. sanmateo is a town read.Bass_the_Clever wrote:Well can you answer the question? You don't have to if you don't want.
It looks good that he was one of only a few players to participate in the exercise, and he seems to habe done a good job, but I also see this sort of thing as something a scum player can easily do to earn townie points.sanmateo wrote:why/how?Sloonei wrote:my gut reaction is to stick with my Bass suspicion even after his participation in the gun-to-head exercise. It does change my view of him a little bit but it's not enough (yet) to shake my skepticism.
because i had another question for you. i am just trying to feel you out.Bass_the_Clever wrote:Why did answer my question with a question? I was just trying to feel people out.Sloonei wrote:You seem to be implying that you think there's scum hiding out here. Which of us (I assume I'm being counter amomg the super posters, i dunno if that's accurate) would it most likely be? Least likely? and why do you feel this way?Bass_the_Clever wrote:Bass_the_Clever wrote:Ok I would also like to hear what everyone else is thinking about the super posters. lol. Does anyone else feel like there could be mafia lurking among them?
nay, i'm about to leave for like 30 minutes to an hour, but i'll he back after thenJaggedJimmyJay wrote:i'm game.MovingPictures07 wrote:Can we play the game now, Jay?
HEY Y'ALL: if you're here right now and will be for the next 10-20 minutes, say aye.
if we get enough people, i have an activity for you.
You seem to be implying that you think there's scum hiding out here. Which of us (I assume I'm being counter amomg the super posters, i dunno if that's accurate) would it most likely be? Least likely? and why do you feel this way?Bass_the_Clever wrote:Bass_the_Clever wrote:Ok I would also like to hear what everyone else is thinking about the super posters. lol. Does anyone else feel like there could be mafia lurking among them?
this is simultaneously exciting and worrying. On the one hand I look forward to seeing what y'all mean when you describe him first hand. On the other hand, by this description i'm basically just crossing my fingers that he's town.birdwithteeth11 wrote:To all our new players:MovingPictures07 wrote:His meta is hands down the most bizarre of anyone at this forum, easily. I've really given up trying to understand him, but I can't help but try at times anyway.sanmateo wrote:that vomp guy is being really secretive
I've seen him say in more than a couple games blatantly that he's rooting for the mafia regardless of alignment, for example.
But I've also seen him actually participate in the game a couple of times (early in his mafia career) as a somewhat active civilian willing to voice his opinions, even if they did occasionally still have the bizarre Vomps-reactionary flavor to them.
So I really have no idea what to expect from him here other than likely zaniness.
The best way to describe Vompatti is that he's the most Dadaist/avant-garde mafia player you could imagine. I can't think of any other way to describe it.
I think the guy's extremely hard to read, and he's been lynched a ton as a civvie because of this. Of course, he's also been lynched as a baddie for sometimes the same reasons as when he's a civ.
Who do we look at as potential scums if you are good?Elohcin wrote:You are all making a big mistake.
I decided I should vote for Elohcin, and now it seems my vote would put her over the edge completely, barring some serious gun/butter action.JaggedJimmyJay wrote:i believe we only have 6 votes left in the field and currently the tally leader is up by 4. so i don't feel like i have many things i can do with mine.
is anyone else who hasn't voted still around to talk about this?
If you want to take a look at it, here's my big post about him. Others have said things as well.Turnip Head wrote:I'm afraid I haven't looked into the Bass case much yet. He was quiet today but I've felt good about him when he was posting.Sloonei wrote:Turnip Head: What do you think of the case against Bass? Have you already addressed it? If you have you can just direct me to that post and I'll have a look. If not, well...
