The Syndicate

Good game everyone. Thanks a lot for hosting Syn!

Town, it was really fun playing with you all!

Scum, it as really fun playing against you!

Very enjoyable game, thanks everyone!

I'm hungry and I want to order thai food, but if I order right now, the time I'd have to go pick it up would have me out of the house at EoD and I really want to see this flip. If I wait... then I have to wait longer for thai food.

I am literally frozen in indecisiveness over this. I wish they delivered...

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:19 pm Could it be... the rare Mac miselim? Here we gooooo.

I could just be tunnelled at this point, but posts like this look like the writer wants to portray levity, but are actually feeling desperation. Not saying that town never does this, but I think more often it would come from mafia about to lose, and makes me feel better about Mac's flip.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:56 pm Mac -> Wilgy, I'm locking it in

@Seanzie what's our confidence level?

I feel good about chopping Mac. I am not as confident as I was earlier, but I think he is most likely to flip red, and also most likely to be able to squeeze out a mafia win in F3 if we chop elsewhere.

At this point I don't think it is a good idea to talk about tomorrow in case Mac is not the hit. I rescind my earlier legacy and give no legacy going into the night.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:54 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:52 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:50 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:48 pm Here's the issue Mac, and you talk me through this if you're town... DrWilgy parked his vote on Creature D2 which was really bad for Alison because it negated the value of Creature's vote as a swing vote, it sent it against her... Effectively.

as opposed to what I did which was park my vote on someone intensely more difficult to chop after I had my vote on Creature?

what I did was much more of a contributing factor to Alison not getting a mislynch off imo.

Yeah, so wait... Wilgy parked on Creature from start of day right? So they might not have thought of the vote mechanics at the time (almost certainly not) and probably also didn't know Seanzie would tunnel the flip that hard.

Wilgy was there for most of the day. I voted there for a while and Alison voted against you I believe. I switched from Creature to Seanzie making Alison 3 Creature 1 you 1 Seanzie 1 and never moved. This gave Alison no viable place to vote really. She voted Seanzie over Creature probably for some weird wifom reasons only her and her partner know.

Is this all from memory?

Four hours left.

@MacDougall any last minute/legacy thoughts?

I know earlier you said NAA/Seanzie, except if both are alive. Is this what you want your legacy to be?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:20 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:10 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:01 am @Seanzie if you're mafia, I'm voting you for a 2021 socky of your choice.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:02 am You can tell me which one you want now

If I was mafia here, I would deserve to win like... all of the mafia-sided and NAI sockys.

Unfortunately I'll have to settle with best townie if Mac dying wins the game... but probably won't win it because it is too early in the year, everyone will have forgotten by then, and no one will understand my play around Fext and see it as a bad move rather than a good one.

I'm sorry that's me...

You deserve to win all the mafia-sided Sockys for this game?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:01 am @Seanzie if you're mafia, I'm voting you for a 2021 socky of your choice.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:02 am You can tell me which one you want now

If I was mafia here, I would deserve to win like... all of the mafia-sided and NAI sockys.

Unfortunately I'll have to settle with best townie if Mac dying wins the game... but probably won't win it because it is too early in the year, everyone will have forgotten by then, and no one will understand my play around Fext and see it as a bad move rather than a good one.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:36 am

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:26 am I'd say NAA more than Falcon.

I could also see NAA, yeah, but I think scum!Mac needs miselims, and Falcon/Creature both looked really good after EoD since they both could have saved Alison, so that only would leave him with you/me. No offense, but I'm going to guess he was more worried about me than you (I've been much more active, and I've been pushing him more). You could say maybe he just goes for Creature instead of me anyways, but I was going to be pushing him, and it is hard to not end up thunderdoming someone hardpushing you.

He tried to push a narrative that a Falcon kill points to me today, bringing it up multiple times, so this is motive on it's own - a potential frame. This also ignores the nuance that again, Falcon made it clear at EoD he didn't want me over (He wasn't sure on Alison and was willing to move to Creature with Alison, but not willing to move to me), and he had posts near EoD that were like "Well, I don't agree with this, but I can see how you'd feel this as town" about some parts of my Mac case.

NAA on the other hand was hardpushing a Seanzie/Alison team.

So like... I don't mean to be egotistical, but I think scum!Mac killing Falcon makes perfect sense if scum!Mac wants me as a miselim.

This should also include that if I don't work out as a miselim, NAA is still just always an easier miselim than Falcon would be today. Falcon was widely townread on play and clear because of EoD2. While obviously you only need 2 miselims, and sometimes wolves take clears to FX that they think they can manipulate, it's rarely a bad idea to bring potential miselim, all else considered equal.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:26 am I'd say NAA more than Falcon.

I could also see NAA, yeah, but I think scum!Mac needs miselims, and Falcon/Creature both looked really good after EoD since they both could have saved Alison, so that only would leave him with you/me. No offense, but I'm going to guess he was more worried about me than you (I've been much more active, and I've been pushing him more). You could say maybe he just goes for Creature instead of me anyways, but I was going to be pushing him, and it is hard to not end up thunderdoming someone hardpushing you.

He tried to push a narrative that a Falcon kill points to me today, bringing it up multiple times, so this is motive on it's own - a potential frame. This also ignores the nuance that again, Falcon made it clear at EoD he didn't want me over (He wasn't sure on Alison and was willing to move to Creature with Alison, but not willing to move to me), and he had posts near EoD that were like "Well, I don't agree with this, but I can see how you'd feel this as town" about some parts of my Mac case.

NAA on the other hand was hardpushing a Seanzie/Alison team.

So like... I don't mean to be egotistical, but I think scum!Mac killing Falcon makes perfect sense if scum!Mac wants me as a miselim.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:20 am Fair enough, but was Falcon just a bad kill then?

Who would have been a good kill for Mac?

I still think we need to flip Mac and if Mac is a miss, we just need to do a full re-eval tomorrow with more info.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:11 pm @NotAnAxehole what is you doinggggg

Hopefully he's ending the game today.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:56 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:43 pm @DrWilgy is your roleplay supposed to in some way relate to the show, or the original series?

I ask because it makes it seem like you've never watched the show, is that accurate?

Partner, I watched 2 episodes with the wife and that's about it.

I just felt like this vernacular would be cute to hold as long as possible considering some goons started basing meta reads on me for what they deem as gimmicks.

In character or out of character, I'd appreciate some thoughts/content about the game. If you're town you need to be found. If you're scum... well... also you need to be found.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:56 pm @Seanzie you realize the way the votes stand you're going to have to self-pres

I have thought about potential EoD situations and I plan to come to the thread closeish to EoD tomorrow to make sure I don't need to do anything, but self-pres would only be necessary if Wilgy votes me well before EoD. Assuming you and Creature don't move votes, my analysis is:

1.) If Wilgy votes Mac, I will stay where I'm at and let it rand between Mac and Wilgy (assuming Mac doesn't self pres, if he does, my vote is meaningless to the elim, so whatever).

2.) If Wilgy votes me, I will self-pres onto Wilgy.

3.) If Wilgy votes someone else, I will stay where I'm at and Wilgy will die, or possibly move to Wilgy, idk, we'll see. Either way it should not affect the outcome unless... 4.) happens.

4.) If Wilgy tries to do something tricky like vote Mac (to keep me on Mac), up until the very last second where they push onto me for a snipe, I would think that everyone in the thread would interpret that as a scum claim and you always just immedately turbo Wilgy in F3 if I die (So @DrWilgy I am trusting that if you're town, you will not do this. If for some crazy reason you think voting me is the right thing to do, do it at least an hour or two before EoD, or it will be interpreted as a scum confession by anyone alive tomorrow).

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:29 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 3:42 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:48 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:47 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:44 pm But I ain't mafia dangummit

Sure thing partner. I'm turning on the computer now to try to figure this fiasco out.

And?

What do you think of him now?

Mostly I'm just annoyed.

Him not posting again after saying that is probably slightly more wolf-indicative than town indicative since wolves might have a harder time thinking of something to say in that situation (but some town do as well), but all this really does is more cement him in my PoE rather than change the order of my PoE. A few hours of silence is not going to somehow beat out a multi-day case.

That being said, @DrWilgy is currently on-elim, and while I don't think it is the best elim, I'm not going to fight it if they're AFK, so the onus is on them to change the game state, and so they need to show back up.

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:48 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:47 pm

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:44 pm But I ain't mafia dangummit

Sure thing partner. I'm turning on the computer now to try to figure this fiasco out.

And?

Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:49 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:42 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:43 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:42 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

Or he kills me tonight and he convinces Creature to flip on you.

Uh oh guess I'm the potential screw up factor.

Sorry, I don't mean it like that, but like... Mac can be persuasive.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:46 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:43 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:43 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:42 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

Not my problem. I think DrWilgy is mafia, and I'm staking my 100% accuracy on it.

I kindly ask you to please play to your true wincon, not a wincon you make up.

Is my wincon not to vote for mafia? I'm not going to have this discussion with you.

Your wincon is to try to win as town.

If you truly think Wilgy is mafia and we vote Mac today and Mac flips town, Wilgy goes over tomorrow pretty much every time.

if instead you're wrong on Mac, and we vote Wilgy and Mac is mafia, then Mac goes over maybe 60-70% of the time tomorrow... and that's if I'm being generous.

If you are truly confident on me/Creature being town, then Mac is the correct vote here. Like, no offense to Wilgy, but I don't see wolf!Wilgy backed into a corner in F3 as as much of a threat as wolf!Mac backed into a corner in F3.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:43 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:42 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

Not my problem. I think DrWilgy is mafia, and I'm staking my 100% accuracy on it.

I kindly ask you to please play to your true wincon, not a wincon you make up.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:42 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

Or he kills me tonight and he convinces Creature to flip on you.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:41 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:40 pm If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

I will instantly flip Mac in final 3 if he's there. No discussion.

So he kills you tonight and then I have to sit there and thunderdome with him for a whole other day, and who knows what Creature does?

If we flip anyone other than Mac today, I'mma be super pissed.

Y'all really think it is a good idea to take PoE Mac into F3? No. It is not.

Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:20 pm We should prob settle what to do if Mac is town.

For me, if it's not Mac, then it is Wilgy. But that's more because I think this game should be quite simple and I don't expect Alison and Seanzie to heroic bus each other.

As a group I don't think we should do this, and personally I just refuse to do this.

I've given my legacy in case of Mac flipping town and I die, but I am not committing to one course of action in F3 if flipping Mac doesn't just end it.

Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:15 pm How do I approve the hammer thing?

Good question. I'm not sure. I said in thread that I was officially approving it, but I'll probably also message Syn right now as that seems the prudent course of action to make sure my pro-hammer vote is counted.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:48 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:40 pm I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

EoD2 strongly spewed Falcon town since Falcon could have saved Alison, and Mac has pushed numerous times that the Falcon kill points to me, so if he thinks it can get me over, I don't see how it isn't in his interest.

Personally, I think Falcon would have flipped on Mac today. No way does Falcon go through that EoD where he cast a vote to save me (and offered Creature as a potential alternative over both me and Alison), then comes into today trying to elim me. Him offering Creature as an alternative but staying on Alison strongly suggests again that he townread me and his vote was as much about saving me as it was about flipping Alison, even if some of the posts he made were a little critical of my push on Mac.

Err... I might be kinda tunnelled and making this only about Mac. I don't know if Falcon would have flipped on Mac, but I severely doubt he would have come into the thread suspicious of me today, so Mac trying to say the Falcon kill points to me IMO suggests agenda from Mac. I don't think he actually considered where Falcon's head was at EoD2.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:40 pm I don't think Mac kills Falcon, it's not in his best interest. *shrug*

EoD2 strongly spewed Falcon town since Falcon could have saved Alison, and Mac has pushed numerous times that the Falcon kill points to me, so if he thinks it can get me over, I don't see how it isn't in his interest.

Personally, I think Falcon would have flipped on Mac today. No way does Falcon go through that EoD where he cast a vote to save me (and offered Creature as a potential alternative over both me and Alison), then comes into today trying to elim me. Him offering Creature as an alternative but staying on Alison strongly suggests again that he townread me and his vote was as much about saving me as it was about flipping Alison, even if some of the posts he made were a little critical of my push on Mac.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:39 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:36 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:25 pm @MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

I will choose not to, but I agree with you if you're down for Mac + DrWilgy as the two elims.

In a world where Mac is town, DrWilgy is my next most likely suspect and as a legacy I will leave that they should be most scrutinized tomorrow if I am not alive, but I always re-evaluate everyone in a FX situation, and I recommend everyone in FX do the same if it gets to that. I don't think it will though, and I think Mac just ends this.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:25 pm @MacDougall TBH, it reads like Alison was setting up to 1v1 you in F5, and whether town or mafia, you were just willingly walking the plank.

Can you walk me through this? Personally, I think they have been trying to powerwolf for a sweep. Given the setup and player list, this is exactly what I would expect them to try for, and D1 makes sense for this, and Mac's attitude at SoD2 makes sense with this, as well as their posts about each other townleaning each other stronger than I would expect from either of them (except you know... when I was grilling them for hours about each other to the point where they absolutely had to show some "possible wolf here" thoughts)

There may have been times where they considered pivoting away from this strategy, but if I'm right about Mac here, I think this was their thought and general gameplan.

Creature wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:42 pm Incase Mac flips town what shall we do?

Read the entire game again. Re-evaluate everything. Flip tables over. Vote your heart out.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:26 am I have answered so many of your arguments in this game and behind door 1 is always a condescending dismissal of my argument or another bullshit reason. So sue me if I'm done answering your wall post nonsense.

If you're town, I'm sorry. Your recent AtE has made me not want to push you anymore, but I just have too strong of a case on you, and I just have a hard time getting over things like you trying to claim I barely talked to Alison, things like that make me think your case on me was disengenuous. Finally, even on the off chance you are a miss, I think tomorrow will be a win, so I'd still like you to go over today.

This is the last I'll say of it unless new cases keep being brought up though.

I'd like to officially vote for hammer at this point. My vote is on Mac. I've made my case. I've explained why I'm town. I don't really want to go for NAA/Creature/Wilgy today because the best argument I could give for any of them is that Wilgy just didn't do a lot. Nothing particularly scummy, just didn't do a lot... and that isn't a good argument.

[VOTE: Macdougall] aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:11 am Seanzie the way you have played this game has been to characterise all efforts I make both when I make them and even in anticipation of making them as scummy in spite of no rational basis for 90% of said efforts being scum indicative either at all or for me in particular... this has made the game virtually unplayable for me since d2. You've made this game virtually impossible for me. It's like Buckets all over again. If you are town that's disappointing. If you are mafia the good, powerful, you tamed the MacDougall. Congrats.

I am allowed to comment on what I think the truth is.

A little while ago, I asked you about Wilgy. You said "I don't think Wilgy is mafia". Wilgy was the person you named as possible mafia if not me.

I suggested just now that if you're town you should go find mafia, because you're switching back to treating me like I'm town. You ignored that part.

I asked you D2 to explain your "hmm" posts and your reads. You didn't.

I have good reasons to think you're scum. I have reasons from D1, D2, and today. If I'm wrong about those reasons, sure, that's on me, but they're there, I'm putting them out there.

While I understand it is hard to deal with someone thinking you're scum (regardless of if you're scum or not), but I have numerous times tried to give you avenues to help me find you if you're town, and you've largely ignored them. That's on you, not me. The whole time it has felt to me like you know I'm town and have misrepresented my actions or just don't seem to actually be in touch with what I'm doing enough to make me think you're truly considering me (really? I honestly cannot believe you said I didn't interact with Alison much. How am I supposed to believe that I'm your top suspect if you didn't even pay attention to how I treated a flipped wolf?)

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:59 am if town
pull head
out of asshole

Mac no longer has any supporters voting for me. Mac attempts to pivot away from me.

Mac, it isn't LYLO. If you're town and think I'm town, you don't need my support to find mafia and kill them. The fact that you only care about how I'm reading you and not actually making a case against anyone else, but while trying to pivot away from me, doesn't inspire confidence in me.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:39 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:22 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:04 am

Spoiler: show

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:35 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:01 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:00 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:03 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:05 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:12 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:09 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm and LC isn't one of them lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 pm Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:13 am I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:20 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:06 am It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:40 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:41 am Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:48 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:59 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:19 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:11 am What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:42 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:22 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:15 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm
So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm



What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:36 am [VOTE: Alison] aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:16 am tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

No duh. me/Alison is a tinfoil that takes some huge mental gymnastics.

I'm guessing that what's going on is that most people didn't actually read that night. If this is true, please go back and reread D2. Please look at how I treated Alison, and how Alison/Mac treated me, and how Alison and Mac treated each other. It's all there. Please look.

There is NO reason Alison and I would ever have to go to that length to try to do scum theatre. I can't fake that, it would be unncecessary, and it locked Alison into essentially having to vote me or explain why they weren't voting me at EoD. Trying to explain why they weren't voting me in order to instead vote a null slot like Creature would have been suicide. Again, this would have been completely unnecessary and if it was me/Alison, we likely could have gotten Creature flipped there.

I didn't treat you like anything I was just inundated with asinine bullshit from you

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:53 am imagine seanzie acting like I victimised him lmao farrque

Uhh, what? Because I used the word "treat"? dk what that means in Australian English, but I'm just telling people to look at the things you say to me and how you act.

Personally I think you treated me like someone who you knew was town, but wanted off their back. Victimization? Nah, I'm not saying anything like that. Granted though, there are times where I've felt your engagements with me/about me are very dishonest. I don't feel victimized though, just pissed that the rest of the thread is letting you get away with it without burying you.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:22 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:04 am

Spoiler: show

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:35 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:49 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:47 pm

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:01 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:00 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:03 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:05 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:12 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:09 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm and LC isn't one of them lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 pm Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:13 am I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:20 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:06 am It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:40 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:41 am Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:48 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:59 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:19 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:11 am What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:42 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:22 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:15 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:07 pm no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:09 pm putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:36 am [VOTE: Alison] aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:16 am tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

pretty good rebuttal tbqh

No duh. me/Alison is a tinfoil that takes some huge mental gymnastics.

I'm guessing that what's going on is that most people didn't actually read that night. If this is true, please go back and reread D2. Please look at how I treated Alison, and how Alison/Mac treated me, and how Alison and Mac treated each other. It's all there. Please look.

There is NO reason Alison and I would ever have to go to that length to try to do scum theatre. I can't fake that, it would be unncecessary, and it locked Alison into essentially having to vote me or explain why they weren't voting me at EoD. Trying to explain why they weren't voting me in order to instead vote a null slot like Creature would have been suicide. Again, this would have been completely unnecessary and if it was me/Alison, we likely could have gotten Creature flipped there.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:53 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:32 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:22 pm Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

Red: No. I just don't look like Alison's teammate.

Yellow: Voting Fext and hardpushing Fext are different. In general if exactly two people are hardpushing a wagon D1 that flips town, you don't expect both to be mafia. Not saying that couldn't happen, but it is not mafia-indicative. Mac is trying to say it is mafia indicative. Not true.

Green: Yes, and it was palpable that they weren't reading eachothers posts, and literally you pointing it out made them realize they needed to distance more and started actually interacting. I know they're good players, but I was putting a lot of pressure on them, so they forgot about eachother while tryign to deal with me.

Purple: There was nothing spot-fire flare-up-y about my interactions with Alison. Any time her and I were in thread together D2, I was interacting with her. I literally could not have interacted with her more D2 if I tried. Again, D1, I didn't interact with her as much, but I really thought Fext was mafia, and she was pushing Fext, so I was fine with her at that point.

Orange: I'm not talking about voting Alison here. I'm talking about limiting where she can push. D2 I pushed her about how she read me. As I pushed her, I made her commit to me one way or the other. Her voting anywhere else would have been weird, and she would have had to have made a case as to why they were a better choice than me. I limited her options at EoD. You and others voted for her, sure, but she would have had more options for where to push EoD if it wasn't for me.

I'm not saying that's mafia indicative I am saying that the way Alison/you came out both pushing not each other is teammate indicative.

The second point about our interactions is like ... no? I don't even recall NAA commenting on it. Also I am very conscious of distancing so if there is a lack of it between me and Alison it's more a point in my favour than against. You know this and you're just refusing to see it.

I disagree on the purple. You spent more time engaging me than her by hours. Alison and you barely spoke.

No. Just no.

There are 51 posts here, just from that one fight alone. These are ONLY the posts where I'm directly talking to Alison or about her. Not including all the grilling I did of you about Alison:

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:04 am

Spoiler: show

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:35 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:55 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:49 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:47 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 6:43 pm Nah man the main reason I "dipped" is because this game has an EOD about 30 minutes before I get out of bed so I more or less missed the entire final 10 hours of the day due to sleeping. I left my vote on Fext because Alison showed up and buried Fext in a way that made me feel like leaving my vote there was probably just the correct thing to do.

If you believe that you made the correct play, then you don't need to ask the question that you did coming into the thread:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:20 pm Sorry about that I got very busy. NAA why are you thinking Alison?

How about answering the question for a change... that'd be quite helpful to me.

I don't know what there is left to say... An obv town player was axed on D1 of a game that has 2 miss-elims. The logic was that he was mafia with a polarized player that had one good game in which people didn't force anything alignment indicative out of him.

[VOTE: NotAnAxehole] aubergine

You've seen NAA put all his eggs in one basket before, right?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am Mac/Alison feel like they tag-teamed in and out, and yeah... it ain't working....

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:28 am Fext was not obvious town. He was an incredibly scummy player with a very plausible scumslip theory hanging around his neck. It's been clear, both in this game and in past games, that you don't have a ton of respect for my town play, to the point that you said in basic mafia you'd be willing to completely contravene my entire legacy if I flipped town just out of spite. I could believe you would policy Mac for pushing a D1 misexe, I don't believe that you would adopt the same policy on me.

1. Who is this post aimed at?

2. Why wasn't Fext obvious town, outside of the scumslip? Did his inexperience factor into anything for you?

I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:01 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

I think he thought I'd be wayyyyy less obvtown than I am. Like sorry, but I was wrong in the way that makes me clear town. Y'all could not have necessarily seen that coming.

How is it not almost always a good idea to let a tunnelly town cause another town to flip? Like... honestly 9/10 times that would have worked, but it is clear I went too hard.

Also Mac legit did try a flacid attempt to push me today. Did you read that, or did you skip it because it was a post by a partner?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:00 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:47 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:34 am Fext/LC were T/T with some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them. We know this for a fact.

Mafia doesn't sit there and join in the tunnel. Mafia just drops a townread on Fext that's weak enough it won't change the outcome of the day, sit on the counterwagon, and roll in free towncred then gets town to sleepwalk on the players pushing Fext for being wrong once. If I die the game is almost certainly lost and all mafia has to do is allow town to murder each other.

This is exactly how NAA has been playing, and he's jumped straight to the "kill everyone on Fext's wagon because they're just such good players they can never be wrong on a single player ever" line the moment D2 opens.

"some of the tunneliest/loudest players on the game pushing them"???????? there is exactly one person that fits that description. Use my name please. Do not pretend like this was an effort of the group. I own up to yesterday, and I know I am obvtown because of it, granted for all the wrong reasons, but meh, still.

How about the mafia that were scumreading Fext before the tunneliest/loudest player started strongly strongly pushing for Fext's elim? Do they backtrack or go along with it?

Me. You. Mac.

Three loud, tunnelly players. All pushing Fext, until the point Mac recanted the scumread.

As I pointed out earlier, I think they either backtrack completely and flip to weakly shielding Fext for cred (which is pretty much what I think NAA is doing here), or they go along with it and blame a scapegoat. I don't think they do what Mac did, which is adopt some weird middle ground stance where they townread someone they want dead but don't gain any towncred for it.

Oh wolfy wolfy Alison...

1. Mac did not tunnel Fext, Mac tried so soooo soooooo hard to back off.

2. In what world am I supposed to believe the proud Alison describes herself as tunnelly unless she feels caught?

nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

sorry nah

1. He tunnelled Fext at the start before he backed off.

2. I have repeatedly described myself as tunnelly. It doesn't offend my sense of pride because I don't think it's a bad trait at all.

Here is a recent example:

1. quote the posts where he tunneled Fext. He didn't push Fext for crap.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:03 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:53 am @Alison

What is your read of me right now?

@MacDougall

Same question?

I think you're probably town.

I'm obviously town.

You aren't.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:05 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

I didn't realize it was. The only person I saw bring up that point was NAA.

I think Mac as mafia would most likely have either silently sheeped the wagon and redirected all the blame to me the following day or townread Fext, voted some vanity wagon and peaced out if that was his strategy. I thought his townread on Fext was weird, but he wasn't using it to grab cred or anything and he has a track record of sheeping me even on people he townreads especially D1. I don't think it's particularly suspicious. I would policy him in F5/F3 if it comes to that, but I think NAA is basically outed from being in the exact position scum would want to be in and I don't think he's likely wolves with Mac.

Plz quote my case on Mac and tell me why I'm wrong. Mac's post connecting LC to Fext made it so he couldn't silently sheep as I personally pivoted from LC to Fext due to what I incorrectly saw as Fext's slipping. Why is it so weird to think that Mac didn't expect me to bite so hard, but felt stuck to his read, and was surprised when even after Fext was being kinda towny, Mac just stayed to elim a town?

Also, plz do it in a way that does not assume your own TMI on yourself. Like, I can accept that you might townread Mac because of your own alignment, but honestly, you/Mac is a super real world for me, so if it is false, I need arguments that work that don't rely on your own TMI.

In that world why doesn't Mac just go "yeah, I think Fext is scum too, I agree with Seanzie and Alison", and then when Fext flips town, points fingers at you and says you did it?

Or why doesn't he just go "yeah Fext is my townread", but get off and don't do much to defend him so Alison + Seanzie push the wagon through anyway?

dont mind me just here to throw

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:41 am
I am stating my thoughts and casing my top scumread.

Fext wasn't obvious town because everything that came out of his mouth was complete horseshit that I spent much of my iso dismantling. His inexperience made me lean even more towards him being scum because newbie scum struggle to piece together coherent thoughts and as a result they end up having thought processes that don't make sense in perspective. I struggle to see how anyone could call Fext obvious town.

1. Who was your original post aimed at? This is a fair question, I relly don't know, but you use the word "you" a lot, so I need to know who "you" is to fairly judge the post.

2. Can you point to a single newbie scum being able to post as much as Fext has?

1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:12 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:09 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:05 am given LC is a leading wagon I do have to ask

in poking around I saw he just won a game as mafia where people were like really shocked by his performance

how much does that factor into all of your guys' perceptions of him in this game

found Lime Coke's partner, game is over

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 pm Oh wow Fext has a million votes lol.

Well I guess that's good.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm and LC isn't one of them lol

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:51 pm Lime Coke if you're town omgussing me because I am calling you and fext outed based on nothing is a pretty bad way to convince me of such

@Seanzie Here are Mac's posts where he strongly pushes LC/Fext as a team before moving to a townread of Fext.

Yes... four posts... and then?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:13 am I'd like to point out how Mac changed after Alison showed up

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am This is an isolated wolf having a partner show up and getting a boost of energy because of possibly threadcontrol

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:14 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:07 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:56 am
1. The word "you" here refers to NAA, re: the stuff about "you said in basic mafia", etc., because I was responding to his post. The post in general is directed at the rest of the thread, because they are who I wish to convince to vote NAA.

2. Off the top of my head, Alexa was coming out strong and spam posting threads from her very first game of forum mafia. At any rate I wouldn't clear someone for volume posting when the content of their posts are really bad.

So like... Fext is at Champs finalist level...

funny thing, I remember when you found out in Spank! that Jo was reasonably new. That pretty strongly affected your read. Why didn't it affect your read here?

Do you think posting a lot is what makes you a Champs finalist?

GGhana is not a newbie exactly but they are a notoriously polarized scum player. They top posted in Hydra G3. The point I am making is that it is absurd to assume that anyone who is newbie scum can't go above a certain number of posts. I think it's reasonable to assume they can't make posts above a certain quality, or to consistently provide good content. This is why I townread Jo in Spank! - she was making townie enough posts that I was willing to just clear her for them because I don't think a newbie scum could fake those posts. At no point did I say "Jo must be town because she is posting too many times". I said "Jo must be town because her posts are good". Fext's posts weren't good. Fext's posts were shit.

Weird thing is though... you didn't change your stance on Fext when you learned they were new like you did Jo. You have a clear uncertain period about you when you leanred Jo was new... none of that appears here.

The postcount thing is all just a distraction to see how your Fext progression went... and guess what? you didn't have one.

Do you want me to link you games where I push someone, they say "I am new" and I don't give a fuck and continue pushing them anyway? Because I can.

You have your head up your own ass if you genuinely believe I care about someone being new or not new when all their posts are garbage. I'm just going to bury them because having bad posts = wolf regardless of if it's a new wolf or an experienced wolf.

Also Fext disclosed he was new before my case on him... so why would you expect my case to have a period of uncertainty as I absorb the knowledge that he is new?

Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:20 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Yeah, sure.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:24 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:06 am It's an awkward 3 way conversation because 2 people deliberately avoiding each other and pumping different narratives about their play.

Like... the change... after this post. It is so pulpable. You can't write this shit.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am Don't see the harm. No promise I'll look, but sure gimme those games.

They weren't garbage though... were they? Like Fext flipped town if you didn't check. You were wrong. Fext is commonly townread by wolves IME. He is not perfect, but garbage? nah. Not at all. You wolfy wolfy wolfy and being rude.

pretty sure I told the thread that, not Fext

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am I really can't get over how much more activated Mac is now that Alison is here.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:40 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:38 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:18 am @Seanzie let's vote Alison today...

Turbo this if I flip.

Full legacy plz.

Still think you're town, still think Falcon and Wilgy are town. Mac is likely town for reasons I've just gone over, though he should be policied in FX.

I suspect NAA. I suspect Creature.

If I am wrong on a townclear it is probably Mac or Wilgy.

Let's say we chop one of NAA or creature today, and if we miss we chop Mac... which of NAA or Creature do we chop?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:41 am Actually... Honestly...

I want to start a conversation over from ground zero...

@Alison

Mac's Fext push is sus af. Plz talk me through your thoughts on my case on Mac. I think at some point I asked you to quote it and talk about it. Plz go back to it now.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:45 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:33 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:25 am

I dug back into my game history and it turns out I actually haven't played with many newbies lately. Here's one from August: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... -Guns-17er

I was playing under the name Touko Fukawa, and tunnelled Superjack (who's a kinda newish, super polarized LHF player) to hell and back despite them spam posting and doing what many people saw as towntells.

I'll look at the game, but I'd like you to also respond to my other points. Fext flipped town, so you calling their post garbage is minimally a bit insensitive, and maxially trying to pretend like a townie wasn't a townie.

No, I am not trying to gaslight you into thinking Fext flipped red. That is absurd.

I am telling you that regardless of Fext's alignment their posts did not logically make sense. I pretty extensively deconstructed why their posts did not logically make sense in my ISO. I believe this to be something done by mafia a lot more than town (except for specific players who are crazy townies like Gavial). Therefore I voted Fext. Whether or not Fext is new doesn't change any of this. I don't see why it is insensitive for me to say that a post is bad when it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not calling Fext garbage, I'm just saying his posting this game has been bad and I voted him out for it.

And you really, truly and honestly think Mac is town based on his D1?

Yes. Mac is a strategic scum player who plays with agenda. He is not likely to straddle the fence and take the worst of both worlds if he is mafia. Here is his last scum game, which he played with me: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... ed-Hype%21

Day 1, suspicion falls on two of his mafia buddies: Mich-El, who has been afk and is well known to afk as scum, and Katze, who has made a PR claim and been counterclaimed. Mac hard defends both of them, and aggressively tries to counterwagon Great Partners, who is town. Mich-El goes over and flips mafia instead.

Day 2, Mac hard busses Katze, to the point that it had me townreading him in dead chat despite his D1 attempt at saving her. Katze goes over, and Mac coasts on the cred from killing Katze to win the game.

The point is that scum Mac plays in extremes because he wants to either crush the town or gain an immense amount of towncred. The other game I linked to you, Guns and Venom, he also adopted similarly extreme stances, where he hard defended some people and hard pushed others. I cannot remember Mac making a limp wristed push or back-and-forth stance as scum. I believe that if he was scum here would hard commit to either townreading and shielding, or scumreading and burying Fext, the former to gain as much cred as he can and coast through the game, and the latter to just get a town killed in a game where town have very few misexes.

Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:53 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:48 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:35 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:29 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:26 am Re: yellow stuff - Fext flipped town. It doesn't mean that their posts made any more sense, or that the logic behind them wasn't terrible. I deconstructed this logic in my response to Fext's posts. When I say his posts are garbage I mean they don't make sense/don't have good logic.

Blue text - doesn't change my point. Fext was outed as a newbie before I cased him, why would you expect there to be a moment of hesitation in my Fext progression as a result of Fext's newbieness?

How do you go about reading Gavial when you're town?

I often don't. I ignore him and let other players or the thread state sort him out for me because he is impossible to engage with.

When I do have to try to read Gavial I usually examine the purity of his tone, the consistency of his pushes (he is a lot likely to get stuck as town but will swing crazily to suit an agenda as mafia) and NKA because he is very bad about making kills that screw him over.

How many games deep did it take you to treat gavial like this?

Like 3 or 4? In my first couple of games with him I just voted him out because he was obviously an insane person making insane reads/posts and being really annoying about it. You saw how he was like in Fallout, and I think that was my first game with him. I was 3P who didn't care about the exe and I wanted to kill him anyway lol.

Did you make a case on him his first few games?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:57 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:37 am Seanzie why are you not more suspicious of Fext townreaders having TMI given that you thought Fext was outed D1?

My whole case around Mac is based on Mac's Fext-townready posts being TMI? Plz

requoting

@Alison Plz thoughts.

preferably on my whole case, but kinda feel like you've been avoiding this HUGE issue.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:04 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:59 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 1:52 am Mac never went back-and-forth D1, except for his few appeasement posts to me D1 after I pushed people to give content around Fext's imminet flip. He was pushed to this, it was not natural.

What do you think scum!Mac would do if he saw town!Seanzie pushing as hard on town!Fext as I was pushing?

I think in that scenario he would do one of two things: 1) hard defend Fext and make an ostentatious attempt to try to swing the vote away from Fext, while his mafia buddy plays the other side and ensure Fext goes over, or 2) go "yes, I agree with Seanzie and Alison, Fext is indeed scum", and park on Fext. And then when D2 rolls around, he essentially just says "I dunno, I was sheeping Seanzie/Alison, look at them if you want someone to blame".

If you want specifics:

I think if his mafia partner is NAA he would probably do 2). Remember when I theorized that he would try to swing the vote away from Fext while his mafia buddy parks on Fext? That would essentially be the same strategy, but with NAA being the ostentatious counterwagoner and Mac being the one sleeping on the Fext wagon.

If his mafia partner is Creature then he probably does 1), lets Creature sleep on the Fext wagon, get a town of cred D2, and then shield Creature with his cred (pulling on past meta or just blaming me and you instead of him).

If his mafia partner is Falcon or Wilgy he probably does 1) because he needs thread control and they can't give it to him.

If his mafia partner is me then he almost certainly does 1) and try to make it sound like the Fext wagon was all your fault.

In no worlds do I see it being a worthwhile or attractive play for him to try to townread Fext but in a way that doesn't grab towncred (when Mac absolutely loves grabbing immense towncred to coast on as we saw in Venom and Guns and G10), and also doesn't let him blame you/me for the Fext wagon because he apparently didn't agree with it in the first place. It just doesn't make sense and Mac always has a very strong agenda when he is wolf. The limp wristed back and forth treatment of Fext doesn't reek of a strong agenda to me.

And so you see nothing suspicious about Mac super strongly townreading Fext... but continuing to vote them and becoming limp in the thread?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:19 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:11 am What does he gain as scum if he does that? Like, just breaking it down. Scum know the alignments of every other player in the game. If he is scum he knows for certain Fext is town and he wants Fext dead. If he townreads Fext, it is to gain Fext's trust, or the trust of the town. If he votes Fext it is to get Fext killed because he is mafia.

The problem is that if he does both he lessens the effect of either. When he says Fext is towntelling, and he is Mac, some people might move off Fext, so he sabotages his plan to kill Fext. Conversely, by voting Fext he negates all his towncred that he would otherwise gain from his calling Fext town. The only reason Mac would try to do both things at once rather than lean into one side or the other is if he was using mind games and trusting that I would come to this exact conclusion and shield him. Which is why I'd policy him at FX to avoid that possibility, but why would scum Mac mind game D1 when he could just go to sleep and let Seanzie murder Fext?

I don't think it was necessarily a strategic move. He made a mistake. Fext appears really really pure to those who have TMI. Mac was surprised by how the thread treated Fext.

You are extremely likely to be a wolf to not be aware of this yet.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:27 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:24 am Fext wasn't pure to me at all. I keep asking people why Fext was obvtown and they can't give me solid answers.

I think if Mac was wolf and came into the thread and saw Fext as being really pure and obvtown and also saw town Alison and town Seanzie attacking Fext he would just hard defend Fext and move his vote off.

Plz give me a town!mac argument that doesnt depend on you being town.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:42 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:38 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:34 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:32 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:30 am Like let's say he is wolf, he is partners with me, and he sees the way you treat Fext. I hop on to kill Fext... and he has the perfect opportunity to defend Fext. He knows I can get people killed D1, which means Fext will go over regardless of whether he has his vote there or not, and he also knows that he can get sick towncred if he defends Fext. He could be in the position that NAA is in right now today with nobody really questioning him except me, if he had defended Fext and I was his partner.

So Mac would defend Fext if I was mafia, and Mac would defend Fext if I was town. Ergo, Mac is town.

The second sentence is categorically false. Please try again wolf.

Why is it categorically false?

YOur order of events. What exactly did you originally "hop" on to?

The sequence of events, as I remember it, happened this way.

1) I express generalized suspicion of both Fext and LC for the way they have been posting.
2) You think that Fext has scumslipped.
3) I strengthen my suspicion of Fext, independently, for poor responses to my pressure, and think your scumslip theory is plausible besides. I vote Fext.

If I am town then I have done 3) as a genuine belief and fully intend to tunnel Fext into the ground. If I am mafia then I am doing it because I am a wolf and intend to kill a townie. Either way, a wolf Mac would have confidence that I would ensure Fext goes over, and you clearly were intending to 1v1 him to his death as well.

My point is this. After Mac sees 3, if he is a wolf, he would have no reason not to hard defend Fext. Fext was going over regardless, the writing is on the wall, and he gets a bunch of towncred on the side for it.

Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:56 am I'm still waiting for:

1) Evidence that Fext was genuinely townie D1. You didn't think he was back then, yourself, but apparently he was obvious?

2) The refutation of my logic that you claim has a lot of holes in it.

Not willing to engage with you not on my terms. If you decide to scumread me, then say so. Otherwise, burden is on you to satisfy me, not the other way around.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:50 am Mac hard!spewed Fext town well before Mac "saw 3". Legit, thinking Mac might be town because of whatever, okay... but you are ignoring my cases. You are finding ways to not listen to me. You are doing the thing that wolves do when they can't sus a person, but can't work with them either. Nothing I say will sway you, and it isn't because you're tunnelled (weither on town or scum).

You're just scum.

The number of holes in this... is huge. Like I can give evidence if need be. Alison is not actually considering mac here. Probably they both wolves, but minimally this is Alison always wolf. Alison always wolf.

When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:11 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:07 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:58 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:55 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 2:52 am
When did Mac hardspew Fext town? He only did the townread on Fext after I had already cased Fext.

Go on, show me the holes in the logic.

do you think I'm town still?

I am starting to think you are mafia. You have been engaging in bad faith, claiming there's holes in my logic, and that Mac did something at a certain date, when I look back at the posts and he only townread Fext after I cased Fext. I've been going back and forth with you on this for dozens of posts and you haven't engaged with my logic, while accusing me of not engaging with yours (when I have).

What is the hole in logic? you made posts about Fext before Fext had eyes on him. I even made a snide post towards you asking you if Fext was the D1 miselim because I thought your treatment of Fext was kinda sus. Do you want to bring that up? we can?

"he only townread Fext after I cased Fext"... after you cased him the first or second time? Did his views change the second time you cased Fext? (because his weird read-change but not vote-change happened between the first and second)

I think Mac would have hard defended (as in moved his vote off Fext and voted the counterwagon) Fext if Mac was wolf. The reason I think he would do this is that he saw me tunnelling Fext. If Mac was a wolf, he would have sat back, defended Fext, and counted on me to do the dirty work of burying Fext.

What part of this argument is full of holes/categorically false/whatever you want to call it?

When would Mac have done this? before or after he tied Fext to LC?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:22 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:15 am

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:43 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:29 am It's a matter of how people think, really

If you're gathering early votes as mafia in a game with no PRs in particular I'm sure the very last thing you want is to avoid giving people a fact that may help to lower their suspicion of you. Ergo, I would have found NAA not doing that to have been quite towny.

Basically, it's not a matter of me thinking he'd not have an explanation for why he voted me, but instead just the fact that if he chose to essentially redirect pressure on himself into positive force elsewhere without including a semi-relevant fact in his defense that doesn't actually do anything to help determine anyone's alignment, it would be indicative to me of a focus on solving over self-defense at a time when that would conventionally be completely unnecessary to go out of your way to project.

Considering he did not, and so I have not made any definitive statements on his alignment, I'm confused what you're all up in arms about - even if you disagree with my logic there, I'm not using it to make any actual reads in this game at the moment lol

So you're saying that NAA is town for not defending himself when he could have, because as town he'd care more about solving than defending himself, and as scum he wouldn't care about solving and would only care about defending himself. Except that's a false dichotomy, because as town he could easily go "Well, I voted Mac first, but if you wanna know why I voted Fext, here's why: blah blah".

I'm "up in arms" about your logic because I think it doesn't make sense. You were presenting it as part of your thought process, a conditional you were using to evaluate NAA's alignment. If your thought process/conditional isn't coherent, then I'm inclined to think it was never part of a genuine solving process and was just something you made up to look like you were trying to solve NAA.

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:48 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:07 pm no wait it clearly is and I'm dumb for thinking you didn't think it was bs aren't I

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:09 pm putting that ploy aside

if it helps you any NAA I am in fact town

What the fuck does this mean? What is the "ploy" referenced?

Alison wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:01 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:33 pm also it's not a nitpick if you're pushing me because "regardless of whether creature is scum or town, you reading him in your townier group is always malicious" to call that out as being gross

he can either be one or the other and you choosing to always ascribe that to pointing towards me being evil is senseless at best and outright malicious itself at worst

[VOTE: Fext] aubergine

This is nonsense. If you have an incoherent or illogical read on someone, that is suspicious behavior regardless of the alignment of the person you were reading.

It is upon reading this series of posts that a wolf Mac would think "I should just defend Fext for towncred, Alison will clearly do my job for me".

1.) why should I believe you're V here?

2.) What do you think of mac's takes before this point?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:42 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

No! you acknowledge differences but do not CONSIDER MAC!

CONSIDER MAC

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:45 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:41 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:39 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:32 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:27 am

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:23 am tbh if alison is mafia like... it's just wilgy lol

Alison's doing things that confuse her "pre you" vs "post you" stuff and her cases don't involve reflection. She's obv wolf. Like... just bus her at this point probably?

What do you mean pre Mac vs post Mac?

"My cases don't involve reflection" is a vague, generic argument that is entirely used to discredit me without specifying the specific parts of my arguments that are wrong or lacking and why they're wrong or lacking. Your repeated insistence on attacking me in this way is why I am starting to scumread you; they don't make sense, they don't fit your town playstyle, and they are esesentially focused on trying to make me look bad more than they're actually engaging with my points.

your case on Fext before Mac showed up to the thread vs what happend post-Mac showing up to the thread. you conflate this shit with so much agenda and then ignore my points...

What are the alleged differences in my case on Fext before and after Mac showed up to the thread? Why are those differences relevant?

I do not feel like you've given me a fair exchange in regards to Fext and Mac. Give me a fair exchange and we can talk. I am not willing to talk otherwise.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:36 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:31 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:23 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:10 am

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:56 am

Alison wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 3:48 am I've given you page after page explaining my logic as extensively as humanly possible. If you want to talk, be extremely clear, specific and precise about what it is you want. I've had enough with you throwing vague nonsense at me and pretending it means something and I am scum for not responding to it enough. If you want a fair exchange from me so we can talk, then define it. Tell me what a fair exchange is, and what you want from me. No more "you haven't reflected enough", "you haven't considered the differences", etc. Be specific.

You don't understand how Mac changed on Fext, and that is telling.

Would you mind doing me a favor and pretending like Mac is scum and I'm right, and letting me know how such a world would look?

Then let's be clear.

You tell me, in simple 4th grader terms, how you think Mac's read/treatment on Fext changed. Then you explain why this contradicts something I've said, or some characterization I've given on the situation.

In a scenario where Mac is scum, then I believe that the way he has treated Fext - ie. townreading Fext but leaving his vote on Fext anyway - is most likely because he is playing mind games. I believe that this action does not benefit him as scum. Ergo, he is doing it to get townread by people who know it doesn't benefit him as scum, like me. For obvious reasons, I don't think Mac is mafia with you or NAA. I know I'm town, and the way he went after Creature for slanking through the day suggests that they are not partnered. (Specifically, I think a mafia Mac with Creature partner wouldn't want to draw even more attention to his partner when he - that is, Creature - is already under pressure. He might be bussing Creature, but if that was his intent he wouldn't have gotten stuck in the reads trying to argue with and case you - mafia Mac busses very confidently and violently.)

So, in this world, I think he's most likely scum with one of Wilgy or Falcon.

I think you "mind games" crap is BS. Look at the thread. Look at how Mac treated Fext.

you refusing to see it...

What's your theory?

Let's say Mac is mafia. What does he stand to gain by doing this to Fext?

You've said that if he's mafia he'd see Fext as being really pure - okay, why not shield the obvtown pure person then?

You've said that you thought he was caught by surprise and reacted in a bad way. Caught by surprise by what? It's an asynchronous forum game and he can take as much time to think about his post as he likes. Why would his kneejerk reaction to an unexpected bout of townieness, as mafia, be to townread them and then refuse to take the vote away?

I'm looking at the thread. What am I supposed to be seeing here?

It's really not that hard. You have all the pieces. Put it together and convince me it isn't a read you legit took this long to come to.

Seanzie wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:36 am [VOTE: Alison] aubergine

MacDougall wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:16 am tomorrow after I have decompressed

me where it is night

There are exactly 0 worlds where town!Mac is actually considering me and says I barely interacted with Alison there. 0 worlds.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:22 pm Red: So your case is that you're bad at the mafia alignment?

Yellow: Both wolves voted Fext D1, I'm not granting you this one

Green: I agree, I commented on how both were having a go at you

Purple: I don't understand how this is a point in your favor given it's a big part of my case, whoever is Alison's mafia partner completely ignored her obvious scum day 1 which was enabled by townies following suit. I understand that people in this game are smart, they are not your average mafia player. These people are well-read. they are in college or have degrees. they know about analyzing data and drawing conclusions... But man, it's fucking awful that you all overlooked obvious scum Alison, and obvious town Fext. And that really makes it a very complicated decision today... Given that this setup has no room for error.

Orange: So was Mac, so was Creature, So was Wilgy. The issue is there are so many people who were voting in ways that left Alison with very few options... Yeah, you could have gone off of Alison, and you would have died for it... Don't take credit for my work on pushing Alison, it's embarrassing.



I haven't re-read, still need to do that, I don't know what to think.

Red: No. I just don't look like Alison's teammate.

Yellow: Voting Fext and hardpushing Fext are different. In general if exactly two people are hardpushing a wagon D1 that flips town, you don't expect both to be mafia. Not saying that couldn't happen, but it is not mafia-indicative. Mac is trying to say it is mafia indicative. Not true.

Green: Yes, and it was palpable that they weren't reading eachothers posts, and literally you pointing it out made them realize they needed to distance more and started actually interacting. I know they're good players, but I was putting a lot of pressure on them, so they forgot about eachother while tryign to deal with me.

Purple: There was nothing spot-fire flare-up-y about my interactions with Alison. Any time her and I were in thread together D2, I was interacting with her. I literally could not have interacted with her more D2 if I tried. Again, D1, I didn't interact with her as much, but I really thought Fext was mafia, and she was pushing Fext, so I was fine with her at that point.

Orange: I'm not talking about voting Alison here. I'm talking about limiting where she can push. D2 I pushed her about how she read me. As I pushed her, I made her commit to me one way or the other. Her voting anywhere else would have been weird, and she would have had to have made a case as to why they were a better choice than me. I limited her options at EoD. You and others voted for her, sure, but she would have had more options for where to push EoD if it wasn't for me.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:04 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:03 pm thats all well and good sir but I am town

Then find mafia.

If its not you it's wilgy.

Is Wilgy just PoE, or?

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:08 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:05 pm

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:02 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:01 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:42 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 pm I think you just flip me and flip seanzie here and if the mafia is someone else gg

I'm not gonna have another day of seanzie yelling incoherent shit at me... ain't about it

Then self-vote. I'm okay with this plan and will deal with the consequences tomorrow if I'm wrong about you, but I don't think that happens.

Also, the vast majority of my recent posts aren't to you, they're to the rest of the thread.

Still waiting on you to explain why you think I'm scum... because guess what? You've voiced scumreads on me all game, but haven't actually explained why. I really can't fake this level of aggression on people like you, Fext or Alison. You've seen me wolf before and you can look at all my past wolf games. Unless you think I'm somehow just overshooting my wolf range by 10 miles, I am an easy read here.

This is not really to Mac, but to everyone. I can be found here.

I have explained why in more than enough words. There isn't a min word count on a reason to suspect someone.

You look like Alison's teammate. You were both responsible for the d1 miselim and then started day 2 ignoring each other's existence. Your interactions are typified by spotfire flare ups but when push came to shove you both voted where you did (on each other) after all your other avenues were exhausted.

RESPONSE TO RED: Mac is ignoring the fact that this requires me and Alison to have 1. hard commited to bussing way early D2 with potential miselims like Creature floating around and 2. been able to do scum theatre well beyond the best scum theatre I've ever seen by lightyears. Please everyone go look at how me and Alison interacted early D2. This is sooooo unnecessary if we're scum together. Zero reason for it.

RESPONSE TO YELLOW: This is just not how wolves play. If Mac believed that we were doing this, this read would be something like "even though it's weird that they would both double-down on a town newbie, they could have" or something, but no. This is not typical wolf teammate behavior. Mac knows this, but needs to make a case out of nothing.

RESPONSE TO GREEN: this is literally categorically false. I entered D2 pushing Mac more because I have an easier time reading Mac, but right as soon as Alison entered the thread, I immediately started engaging with her, and quickly became convinced she was wolf, and spent hours trying to convince everyone through showing that her arguments were in bad faith.

RESPONSE TO PURPLE: Again this is categorically false. Aside from a few jabs early on D1 to get a sense of where Alison's head was at, I more-or-less ignored her until D2 I engaged with her for hours, and didn't stop until she flipped. Granted, I did engage with Mac more than Alison D2, but not much more and only because I suspected both of them, strongly suspected them as a team, and everyone else was already pretty much there on Alison.

RESPONSE TO ORANGE: I am legit the reason Alison couldn't have tried to go somewhere else. I was NOT AT ALL in contention D2, and only through you and Alison pushing me was I ever an option at EoD. If Alison and I were wolves together, this is so unnecessary and we literally shot ourselves in the foot. IIIIIIIIIII made Alison commit to a hardstance on me to lock her in IIIIII did that. Town!Sean did that. I am proud of my play this game, and I'm not going to let scum!Mac take this away from me. Please everyone find me. I am findable. I know I am findable. I am way out of my wolf range and I refuse to lose. Me/Alison do not actually make sense. IIIII cornered Alison. I did that.

I am not reading this Skittles.

Please try to.

Reading white on gray is already bad enough, I don't need the rainbow.

I can delete the color if it helps you. Here.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:02 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:01 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:42 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 pm I think you just flip me and flip seanzie here and if the mafia is someone else gg

I'm not gonna have another day of seanzie yelling incoherent shit at me... ain't about it

Then self-vote. I'm okay with this plan and will deal with the consequences tomorrow if I'm wrong about you, but I don't think that happens.

Also, the vast majority of my recent posts aren't to you, they're to the rest of the thread.

Still waiting on you to explain why you think I'm scum... because guess what? You've voiced scumreads on me all game, but haven't actually explained why. I really can't fake this level of aggression on people like you, Fext or Alison. You've seen me wolf before and you can look at all my past wolf games. Unless you think I'm somehow just overshooting my wolf range by 10 miles, I am an easy read here.

This is not really to Mac, but to everyone. I can be found here.

I have explained why in more than enough words. There isn't a min word count on a reason to suspect someone.

You look like Alison's teammate. You were both responsible for the d1 miselim and then started day 2 ignoring each other's existence. Your interactions are typified by spotfire flare ups but when push came to shove you both voted where you did (on each other) after all your other avenues were exhausted.

Mac is ignoring the fact that this requires me and Alison to have 1. hard commited to bussing way early D2 with potential miselims like Creature floating around and 2. been able to do scum theatre well beyond the best scum theatre I've ever seen by lightyears. Please everyone go look at how me and Alison interacted early D2. This is sooooo unnecessary if we're scum together. Zero reason for it.

This is just not how wolves play. If Mac believed that we were doing this, this read would be something like "even though it's weird that they would both double-down on a town newbie, they could have" or something, but no. This is not typical wolf teammate behavior. Mac knows this, but needs to make a case out of nothing.

this is literally categorically false. I entered D2 pushing Mac more because I have an easier time reading Mac, but right as soon as Alison entered the thread, I immediately started engaging with her, and quickly became convinced she was wolf, and spent hours trying to convince everyone through showing that her arguments were in bad faith.

Again this is categorically false. Aside from a few jabs early on D1 to get a sense of where Alison's head was at, I more-or-less ignored her until D2 I engaged with her for hours, and didn't stop until she flipped. Granted, I did engage with Mac more than Alison D2, but not much more and only because I suspected both of them, strongly suspected them as a team, and everyone else was already pretty much there on Alison.

I am legit the reason Alison couldn't have tried to go somewhere else. I was NOT AT ALL in contention D2, and only through you and Alison pushing me was I ever an option at EoD. If Alison and I were wolves together, this is so unnecessary and we literally shot ourselves in the foot. IIIIIIIIIII made Alison commit to a hardstance on me to lock her in IIIIII did that. Town!Sean did that. I am proud of my play this game, and I'm not going to let scum!Mac take this away from me. Please everyone find me. I am findable. I know I am findable. I am way out of my wolf range and I refuse to lose. Me/Alison do not actually make sense. IIIII cornered Alison. I did that.

I am not reading this Skittles.

Please try to.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:03 pm thats all well and good sir but I am town

Then find mafia.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:44 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:42 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 pm I think you just flip me and flip seanzie here and if the mafia is someone else gg

I'm not gonna have another day of seanzie yelling incoherent shit at me... ain't about it

Then self-vote. I'm okay with this plan and will deal with the consequences tomorrow if I'm wrong about you, but I don't think that happens.

Also, the vast majority of my recent posts aren't to you, they're to the rest of the thread.

Still waiting on you to explain why you think I'm scum... because guess what? You've voiced scumreads on me all game, but haven't actually explained why. I really can't fake this level of aggression on people like you, Fext or Alison. You've seen me wolf before and you can look at all my past wolf games. Unless you think I'm somehow just overshooting my wolf range by 10 miles, I am an easy read here.

This is not really to Mac, but to everyone. I can be found here.

I have explained why in more than enough words. There isn't a min word count on a reason to suspect someone.

You look like Alison's teammate. You were both responsible for the d1 miselim and then started day 2 ignoring each other's existence. Your interactions are typified by spotfire flare ups but when push came to shove you both voted where you did (on each other) after all your other avenues were exhausted.

Mac is ignoring the fact that this requires me and Alison to have 1. hard commited to bussing way early D2 with potential miselims like Creature floating around and 2. been able to do scum theatre well beyond the best scum theatre I've ever seen by lightyears. Please everyone go look at how me and Alison interacted early D2. This is sooooo unnecessary if we're scum together. Zero reason for it.

This is just not how wolves play. If Mac believed that we were doing this, this read would be something like "even though it's weird that they would both double-down on a town newbie, they could have" or something, but no. This is not typical wolf teammate behavior. Mac knows this, but needs to make a case out of nothing.

this is literally categorically false. I entered D2 pushing Mac more because I have an easier time reading Mac, but right as soon as Alison entered the thread, I immediately started engaging with her, and quickly became convinced she was wolf, and spent hours trying to convince everyone through showing that her arguments were in bad faith.

Again this is categorically false. Aside from a few jabs early on D1 to get a sense of where Alison's head was at, I more-or-less ignored her until D2 I engaged with her for hours, and didn't stop until she flipped. Granted, I did engage with Mac more than Alison D2, but not much more and only because I suspected both of them, strongly suspected them as a team, and everyone else was already pretty much there on Alison.

I am legit the reason Alison couldn't have tried to go somewhere else. I was NOT AT ALL in contention D2, and only through you and Alison pushing me was I ever an option at EoD. If Alison and I were wolves together, this is so unnecessary and we literally shot ourselves in the foot. IIIIIIIIIII made Alison commit to a hardstance on me to lock her in IIIIII did that. Town!Sean did that. I am proud of my play this game, and I'm not going to let scum!Mac take this away from me. Please everyone find me. I am findable. I know I am findable. I am way out of my wolf range and I refuse to lose. Me/Alison do not actually make sense. IIIII cornered Alison. I did that.

@Creature @NotAnAxehole @DrWilgy

Please look at these posts and think about how Mac likes to openwolf. He loves doing this sort of stuff as wolf.

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:36 am well Alison is probably town so that's good

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:19 am Here's where I'm at.

I have strong scumreads on Fext and LC and am confident at least one of them is mafia.

NAA and Creature are both afk slots who don't care much about the game. This is effectively null behavior for them given their playing style/meta, maybe on the scummy end for Creature because it suggests he could be frozen (especially in, say, Fext/Creature scumteam worlds where he loses motivation after seeing his partner dumpstered and just drops a weaksauce townread on him and walks off). I'm effectively treating them as do-nothing lowposters.

I have been in agreement with most of Mac's reads except for his sudden backswing on Fext for reasons I don't grasp/agree with. This concerns me, especially if Fext is scum, because he has been known to scumread his partner the entire day and then suddenly reverse the read citing some bullshit, effectively allowing him to shield his partner while having the thread remember him as attacking them. It's possible this is what he's doing with Fext; I'm not super inclined to pursue that theory today because it is a preflip association and even if it is true we should kill Fext anyway. His posting has been fine but not WIMbot-obvious-town. I don't intend to kill him today because he is Mac and will probably have a better grasp on him after some flips.

I think Seanzie and Falcon have both been very townie and I am completely unconcerned about them.

Wilgy's posting has been good, his jabbing at Fext has been good, and his determination to engage/solve through the sheriff gimmick instead of hiding behind it is townie. I misread him as town recently, so I'm a little cautious, but that was a game I replaced out early so who knows if I would have gotten there. He has done nothing scummy and I like the direction of his pushes - strong townlean.

because

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:11 am sounds like something I'd say as mafia when trying to sound towny tbh

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:54 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:53 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:50 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:48 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:45 pm

Lime Coke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:42 pm

Seanzie wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:42 pm

This is a serious question though. Do you understand why I strongly believe one of you or Fext absolutely has to be the chop today?

Not at all. The point to mafia is to lynch wolves. Not towns.

Okay, thank you. This essentially confirms that you're mafia as well to me. I was a bit worried that maybe Fext had heard that from someone else in scum chat, but nah, you're doubling down on defending him and not willing to acknowledge that his knowledge about you is extremely suspicious (which it REALLY should be extremely suspicious from a town!LC perspective).

It was obvious post game in Molly Maguires that everyone was shocked that I played a strong wolf game. He said he saw it, I believe it.

When Fext flips town then you better be going after Mac, otherwise you're just outing yourself even more.

frankly I'm going to do my damndest to get you lynched before I ever go over

but that's neither here nor there

Lol, *need towncred now!* *bus!*

ehhhhhhhhhhh

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:54 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:54 pm fr tho seanzie I saw you pinging me but saw no effort to ask questions or do anything that would help you get in my head

it was a few questions about what games I'd looked at and when with no change in your viewpoint or approach

seems incongruous with your insistence that I talk in realtime because literally none of those questions are things where my answer would change if I had time to think about and plan out an answer

townie words tbh

MacDougall wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:56 pm

Fext wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:55 pm as I mentioned though I'm not exactly planning to constrain myself to 1v1ing LC

stop town telling when i'm trying to get you mischopped

Mac says he stopped having Fext progression after this because of timezones... but this was only 27 hours into D1.

Mac did have posts after this D1, and technically did mention Fext again with two weak posts, and no explanation... No way Mac does this big of a flip though and doesn't wreck shit... Instead he spent time after this D1...

1. trying to shake a scumread from LC, and

2. trying to pocket Falcon, and

3. Doing a patented scum!Mac openwolf moment:

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:36 am well Alison is probably town so that's good

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:02 am

Alison wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 5:19 am Here's where I'm at.

I have strong scumreads on Fext and LC and am confident at least one of them is mafia.

NAA and Creature are both afk slots who don't care much about the game. This is effectively null behavior for them given their playing style/meta, maybe on the scummy end for Creature because it suggests he could be frozen (especially in, say, Fext/Creature scumteam worlds where he loses motivation after seeing his partner dumpstered and just drops a weaksauce townread on him and walks off). I'm effectively treating them as do-nothing lowposters.

I have been in agreement with most of Mac's reads except for his sudden backswing on Fext for reasons I don't grasp/agree with. This concerns me, especially if Fext is scum, because he has been known to scumread his partner the entire day and then suddenly reverse the read citing some bullshit, effectively allowing him to shield his partner while having the thread remember him as attacking them. It's possible this is what he's doing with Fext; I'm not super inclined to pursue that theory today because it is a preflip association and even if it is true we should kill Fext anyway. His posting has been fine but not WIMbot-obvious-town. I don't intend to kill him today because he is Mac and will probably have a better grasp on him after some flips.

I think Seanzie and Falcon have both been very townie and I am completely unconcerned about them.

Wilgy's posting has been good, his jabbing at Fext has been good, and his determination to engage/solve through the sheriff gimmick instead of hiding behind it is townie. I misread him as town recently, so I'm a little cautious, but that was a game I replaced out early so who knows if I would have gotten there. He has done nothing scummy and I like the direction of his pushes - strong townlean.

because

MacDougall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:11 am sounds like something I'd say as mafia when trying to sound towny tbh

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:36 pm I think you just flip me and flip seanzie here and if the mafia is someone else gg

I'm not gonna have another day of seanzie yelling incoherent shit at me... ain't about it

Then self-vote. I'm okay with this plan and will deal with the consequences tomorrow if I'm wrong about you, but I don't think that happens.

Also, the vast majority of my recent posts aren't to you, they're to the rest of the thread.

Still waiting on you to explain why you think I'm scum... because guess what? You've voiced scumreads on me all game, but haven't actually explained why. I really can't fake this level of aggression on people like you, Fext or Alison. You've seen me wolf before and you can look at all my past wolf games. Unless you think I'm somehow just overshooting my wolf range by 10 miles, I am an easy read here.

This is not really to Mac, but to everyone. I can be found here.

How this is even between me and Mac is beyond me. I am obvtown if you know how to find me. Sure, I was joking about it at first (but actually again... I know what I can and cannot do as wolf, and if you know what to look for, I really was obvtown), but there is no way I could push Fext, Alison and Mac as hard as I did if I was mafia.

I literally spent hours talking to Alison dissecting her posts and figuring out that she was mafia. Why was I able to find her? Because she was refusing to consider Mac. Mac's D1 is outing for him if you know what to look for, and as I pushed Alison about this, her engagement with me on this specific subject was disengenuous.

Early D1, Alison pushed Fext, then eventually I started pushing LC, and then Mac made a post connecting Fext and LC that I interpreted as Fext scumslipping. I then started pushing Fext, and Mac kinda felt like he wanted to push Fext, but then stopped, and seemed to do a 180 on Fext, but then left the thread. Aside from one more post on D1, Mac did not talk about Fext again. This was a HUGE change for Mac, and it was VERY WEIRD that he kept voting Fext after his 180, and didn't even bother to talk to people about Fext or engage on the subject.

I pushed Alison about this specific instance of Mac's play for hours, and she was not engaging with me in an honest manner. She was not willing to talk about Mac's progression on Fext. She completely ignored the fact that Mac flipped his read on Fext, and refused to acknowledge the timing of events around Mac's progression. I suspected Alison and Mac before this, but THIS is how I became convinced of the team... especially since the whole time Mac was feeling the same.

No way is this all faked. This is like 1000x more "scum theatre" than would ever be necessary between me and Alison, and if her and I were mafia together, the number of other plays we could have gone for that would be better than somehow? me? pushing hard for Mac? one of the best town players in the game?

On the other hand, Mac and Alison were locked into going for me rather than LHF BECAUSE OF ME. BECAUSE OF HOW I WAS GOING FOR THEM. I boxed them in.

If it was Alison/me, we would not be boxed in at EoD2, we could have done anything we wanted.

Alison/Mac were boxed in by me. The number of things they could do at EoD2 were severely limited by how much I pushed them through D2. Them bussing would have been obvious, and they would have had to spew me town in the process.

Mac saying he'd just bus is disengenuous and completely ignores the actual situation.

There are like 100 arguments for scum!Mac here both involving Alison, and his individual play.

Look at my play, has anyone had an argument for me being scum off my play?

Mac is trying to argue I'm scum off NK's (which is easy for scum!Mac to manipulate).

The only other possible way someone could see me as scum here is because of interactions with Alison, but literally, look at what happened early D2. None of that would be necessary if me/Alison were wolves together. We were highly uncoordinated, I pushed her extremely hard, almost to the point of being rude, that isn't "distancing". Again, I can't fake that level of aggression on someone even if I want to.

It is Mac. I don't know how y'all can ignore all the wolfy crap he has done, or all the agenda he has. He has been obvious since he flipped his "scumread" into a townread on Fext but then didn't follow through because I kept pushing Fext (literally... this play makes no sense for me if I'm mafia. Mac messed up there. Look at how active he was D1 before that exact moment, and then how he just peaced out after for the rest of D1, except when I pressed the thread for content).

DrWilgy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:03 pm I reckon Seanzie did trigger my radar earlier while Mac didn't.

I'd rather have my vote there in the chance there's a hammer currently.

[VOTE: Seanzie] aubergine

No. Go actually read D2. Read as Mac and Alison try to attack me because I'm pushing Mac.

Mac and Alison definitely would powerwolf in this sort of situation, especially since Mac looked like crap after his Fext misstep. He couldn't afford to let Alison die.

Mac's "distancing" attempts on Alison are just bad, and there is no way I'm teamed with her. Falcon even wanted to go for Creature, and we could have just done that, or any other of 100 options other than me literally fighting with her for 6 hours because she was wolf.

I can't fake that. The way I went after Fext, Mac and Alison this game is not something I can fake as a wolf. I'd love to say it is, but it isn't. It just isn't. I try not to admit this because honestly if you know what to look for, I'm pretty polarized and I don't want people to know how to find me as wolf, but this is it.

NotAnAxehole wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:59 pm

MacDougall wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:57 pm Alison didn't go to Seanzie until after I did. I'm sorry but if I was mafia and I'm already voting Creature with t!Wilgy I just push Creature and Alison crosses for self pres. Also Falcon would have been more inclined to vote Creature than Seanzie. Objectively makes no sense for me to do what I do as her partner and all of her play is designed to make me look as bad as possible.

This I also agree with. Alison's move to Seanzie was rather awkward and seemed to only happen because of Mac's vote.

Dude... there is no way I sit there and argue with Alison for hours like I did if we're partners. It makes no sense.

There also would be no reason for both of us to go after Fext day 1.

Plus Mac would have been dead day 1.