Street Fighter II Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Sloonei]

i'm sorry i cant contribute more, i really am sick. i read a few old games in hopes of getting a gleam into people's playstyle and it's been useful but im dying

you've done more than enough already today. go get better, being sick is the worst.

[Sloonei]

It does not look like I will be around to get any clarification from Dom. There's still plenty of time for him to get on and make some noise, but I won't be around to hear it until later. What do we all think of Dom at this point?

[Sloonei]

I could vote Eloh to try my luck with nightkill analysis, or Dom. I'll vote before dayend, but I don't think I'll be around for it. Considering.

What's being considered? Think out loud if you can!

[Sloonei]

I appreciate the clarification RE: everything, @malakim2099, thank you. Care to share your top 2 or 3 suspects with us all?

Just had a whole ton of work dropped on me IRL (I finished my work, but someone else didn't so I got all her leftover work now). And I'd rather take the time to back things up with quotes instead of saying "so and so" is suspicious to me, considering last night's discussion. Just didn't want you thinking I was ignoring you.

Yeah, maybe I'm taking this a little too seriously, but I want to make a good impression.

Though, the recent flame up between MP and Dom/LC was interesting to me. Will dig a bit more into that and get back to you.

malakim also promised us an in depth look at the MP/Dom relationship when he's able. I appreciate his commitment here. Make sure he sticks to it.

[speedchuck]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

[Tangrowth]

I should be here pretty much until the deadline now. I'll catch up and then see what other work there is to be done. I'd like to dig into some more ISOs even if not thoroughly before EoD.

[Sloonei]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

Could you explain your thinking here?

[Tangrowth]

RIP JOH. Clearly I was wrong about you, thanks for a good effort.

VOTES DOM

BBL.

I feel like I was pretty sudden in my accusation of you... but I think you are trumping me, with intent ferocity, in your Dom accusation and vote.

Well, you're probably right, this is a classic "pee move" on my part, so to speak.

[Tangrowth]

Sorry, my friend, but I meant you. You like direct references, I've noticed, so I'll pull some instances up.

That said, I hesitate to scumread LC. I see your point, dunya, but I'm just not sure it means we're seeing scum!LC here.

Sometimes, when I'm trying to discern someone's motivations, I like to play a little game. I imagine the worst thing they could do, and then see if their actions support that conclusion. In this post, baddie MP applies nice mild buddying, while supporting the point that dunya made and was suspicious of. Further discussion of the topic also matches the profile of a baddie MP who, on one hand he kept the idea of my lynch in people's minds by discussing it a lot, and on the other hand he thought I was town and would say "RIP LC. I thought you were town."

Littlefinger's game is pure tunneling, and if you apply it to mafia you'll be the only townie in a sea of scum. If this is how you're looking at MP, it's no wonder you have a scum read on him.

I've only read up to this post so far, but i'm going to share one thought before I go any further: MP is town on volume alone. Nobody puts up this much fake content so quickly and effortlessly.

As much as I appreciate the vote of confidence, and I would concede that I have difficulty matching my usual insane volume as mafia because I have to fabricate it all, if I were you I wouldn't clear me based on that alone. Everyone should be assessed and reassessed constantly. I'm sure you'll be doing that though if you are town!Sloonei, so I'm probably saying this all for nothing.

[Tangrowth]

Speedchuck cast an interesting vote that no one is talking about. He voted for Long con to "facilitate an alternate bandwagon" to Bass, despite not having any personal reason to vote for LC. I am leaning toward liking this move. It's a bit bold and suggests that he is not overly concerned with his appearance and any potential scrutiny he might face and, while i don't ever encourage blind bandwagoning, I like that he took a stand which allowed the lynch to remain somewhat more open than if I had just hammered home another vote on the Bass wagon, in absence of a real suspicion to call his own.

Simon and dunya also voted for LC. Dunya's vote was early and she supported herself well. I don't recall seeing Simon explain his vote. Anyone have thoughts on any of these things?

I appreciate you exploring this and I agree with your perspective. I also like speedchuck's recent posts exploring Elo as bad and in general it seems to me he cares about trying to solve the game. I have a town read for speedchuck.

I also believe dunya and Simon are on the level, but I need to explore dunya's content a bit more and I need Simon to post more things.

I am leaning town on dunya, in part because I agree with the notion that she seems to not have BTSC. She's had lots of questions about minor cultural/technical things here, which suggests that We The People are her best resource to go to as she adjusts to playing in a new place, rather than any teammates behind the scenes. It's been a long time since I played with her, and I suppose she could be crafty enough to deliberately leave these sorts of questions in the thread to keep us off her trail, but I'm gonna categorize that as unlikely at this stage.

I've never played with Simon before and don't know what to expect when reading his posts. And like I said before, I don't really remember seeing his reasoning for voting Long Con, so I can only really shrug at his vote right now. I'd ask if you have any specific thoughts on him, but I assume I'll get my answer before I finish catching up.

I agree with your thoughts on dunya. I am a bit paranoid of her given that her legendary status, but I haven't seen anything alarming from her at this time.

Did you have any thoughts about what I said re: Simon here and here? I know it's not much, but it's something. I do prefer to have something current from him though.

[Sloonei]

I'm off to work now. Sorry to miss yet another deadline. At least I can work comfortably in the knowledge that MP won't let the thread go quiet.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, caught up! Read a lot deeper here, and these are my impressions, based on what I've read.

Diiny - I liked his vote for Sloonei, and I liked his bulldogging around on D1. Pretty sure he's a townie or civ or whatever you call them here.

MP - Actually, in retrospect, I take back what I was saying about him. Reading it closer, the posts appear pretty well reasoned (or are meant to look reasoned, but then that's the I know that you know that I know that you know game). Overall, scaling back the suspicious thoughts of him. Pretty sure he's townie/civ too. I do appreciate the elaboration that yes, this is his normal play.

JoH - Fairly confident in his play here, but it's different than his Realms play to a degree.

Sloonei -Seemed to keep it low-key despite the pressure he was under, which this early seems to be civ-ish to me.

Elochin - Having trouble getting a read. She was helpful, but then that's a great way to seem civ-ish too.

Long Con - I don't know if this is a thing, but I know I've gotten really defensive when accused early in a game when I was a scummer elsewhere. And... well, I'm not familiar with the player. But it feels like he's reacting the way I did in those situations, which makes me feel a little twitchy.

Simon - Considering LC had enough on him to merit a vote, I don't like Simon's fixation on the poll and E Honda-hating D0 to vote for LC. Especially when there was the split between Sloonei or Bass, and this feels like a random vote when you could go one way or the other.

Anyway, that's the general impressions I have so far after taking the time to take a deep read. I need to figure out multiquoting on here, or do you just do it the old-fashioned way with lots of copy/pasta?

A couple more questions, malakim! We've never played together before, so I am intrigued and want to pick your brain. You note that JoH's play here was "different" from his more familiar style on your homesite. Even though he's dead now, could you explain what this means? What differences did you perceive in his gameplay on Day 1?

You also say that Eloh has been "helpful" but then you waffle and turn your whole read into what amounts to a shrug. It doesn't seem like there is much of a read here, really. Could you point to specific examples of Eloh being "helpful" or any moments that give you any doubts about her?

This is a nice observation I hadn't picked up. I am intrigued to know hear the answers to this if they haven't come already. I generally don't like to jump the gun and project teammate stuff too early, but that would be a believable/understandable way for malakim to talk about his mafia teammate.

[Tangrowth]

I'm off to work now. Sorry to miss yet another deadline. At least I can work comfortably in the knowledge that MP won't let the thread go quiet.

Ah, man! You do what you have to do. Sorry we missed each other though. Thanks for the efforts today. As I continue to catch up I'll keep responding to your stuff if I feel it's warranted; just get to them whenever.

[Tangrowth]

I found a thing. @nijuukyugou

Spoiler: show

I'm gonna go write for a bit. I'm looking at people who don't stand out, toeing that line of participating and contributing. Too many Days 1 with voting the weirdo.

Linki - I am Blooper! :waves:

In this post you mention some vague unnamed people at whom you are looking, but you never mention any of these people by name. Can you point to anybody who is or was playing with this particular low-key style?

But then later, this:

Okay, cool.

I don't feel great about lurker voting on Day 1, but it's what I feel most comfortable with at this juncture. I'm still open to being persuaded though.

Whom would you vote if you couldn't vote for Bass or another lurker with me?

Probably either JJJ or speed for the votes on Sloonei for the Dhalsim thing. I'm wary of voting that way for the "look at me, I'm standing out on Day 1!" reasons I stated earlier. I want more info, and I like that playing is happening and want to keep it that way for today.

This seems to be the exact opposite of your previously stated line of thought. Whereas you'd previously stated that you're wary of people who don't stand out on Day 1, here you seem to be saying that you are wary of players for standing out too much on Day 1. Which is it? Or are you just wary of anything with a pulse around here?

also i'll point out again that Jay certainly did not vote for me because of what I had to say about Dhalsim, so it strikes me as odd that you would state a suspicion based on something that didn't actually happen. Could you clarify or elaborate on elaborate on what you mean here?

Blooper should clarify, but the way I read these statements was compatible, not the opposite. I hadn't thought of it this way. Now I'm a bit confused.

[Tangrowth]

I was hoping I'd have time for more ISOs but my brain is fried and sentences are getting harder to type. I'm intrigued by the sudden developments between Dom & MP and I look forward to some follow up from and about them. I am still inclined to read MP as town, but his strong reaction against Dom stands out a lot. I'd like to hear more from Dom before I offer a read on him. Give me lots of stuff to read over breakfast tomorrow, folks.

To clarify: Do you find my sudden Dom suspicion suspicious? The "but" indicates that it's a reason you wouldn't be reading me as town.

[Tangrowth]

just random thoughts as I continue to read: alakim's answers to Sloonei seem legitimate/genuine at first glance to me.

[Tangrowth]

malakim* rather

[Tangrowth]

Now....as for the game, I'm a little overwhelmed. Did Dom just come out of nowhere? Or ia that just me? And sloonei is really starting to make opinions now. But there are atill so many quiet players. We must not forgwt about them.

I have a horribly busy day with work, school, an appointment, a play date, and another mafia game I'm in. I will be back later hopefully with an opinion on who I think is bad. For now, I think all the names being thrown around are civ.

What does this mean?

Which names specifically? "All" is a bit unclear.

[malakim2099]

Just popping in on phone for a second to respond to this as I stay caught up:

I don't buy that MP totally thinks you're civ for a second.

Why not? I'm in the elite green of his list, and he's stated more than once that he doesn't think I'm bad, if I recall correctly.

I don't see that as genuine for a second.

Can you explain what specifically leads you to that conclusion? I need to try to figure out whether you're just painting me with a mafia brush opportunistically or whether you genuinely believe I'm being dishonest, and I can't do that if all you say is you don't find my read of LC to be genuine and don't elaborate.

Perhaps you could answer some questions for me about it to better explain myself.

In ten words or less (TEN WORDS OR LESS): why is LC good?

No. You're not deflecting this back onto me. I've spoken about LC at length and you're the one who made the statement accusing me of dishonesty. You made an assertion and stated it more than once that you don't buy my read of LC to be genuine. That means the burden of proof is on YOU to substantiate that claim, because you already apparently read what I said enough to make a strongly worded judgment that you think I'm lying. Therefore it's your responsibility to explain yourself, otherwise you're just slinging mud baselessly and that's incredibly suspicious.

(The broken quote was bothering the #### out of me there. Had to fix that.)

This is the post that caught my eye, really. Been thinking about this. I highlighted LC's response because I really don't like that defense of "well, I'm cleared by MP!" It just seems akin to the cop hitting a person that has a town cloak and them going, "Hey, look, I'm town because so-and-so proved it!" You aren't saying you're town because of what you've done, but rather because what other people are presuming. Honestly, this reads to me like both Dom and MP are town, though I'd say Dom is moreso than MP in THIS post, if only because MP gets defensive about speaking at length. HOWEVER...

MP does follow up today with this post.

I won't be around until the early evening Central/Eastern time at the earliest.

I haven't caught up but I want to emphasize that I'm still feeling strongly about Dom. Since I know I won't be around until closer to the deadline, I wanted to take a handful of minutes here to clarify as clearly as possible why I suspect Dom as strongly as I do. So here's my interpretation of the exact train of events as it went down, and I want some outside opinions on this (barring they haven't come already and aren't going to anyway) to see what you all think -- and significantly, make sure I'm not just tunneling because it's about me, so I'm curious as to whether any of you all agree that (1) this is indeed how it went down and (2) this is suspicious, because I feel that it's important.

Dom: I believe MP is being dishonest about his feelings re: LC. (He said this not only here but again here in a very assertive/strongly worded fashion.)

MP: I request that you explain how you came to this conclusion -- because I cannot discern how you did so and this is important as to make a determination as to whether you are lying or not. (I said this here after he made the assertion twice as referenced above.)

Dom: Restate your feelings on LC (succinctly, specifically in 10 words or less) so that I can better explain myself. (He said this here.)

MP: You avoided answering my question, and I feel that is suspicious. I will not acquiesce to your request to summarize because you made the assertion accusing me of dishonesty, therefore it is your responsibility to expand on how you reached that conclusion. reference

Dom: I refuse to acquiesce to your request and I double down on my assertion that you're bullshitting. reference

MP: You STILL haven't answered the question. This is suspicious. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you think my LC thoughts are disingenuous. reference

Why would a townie not make any effort at all to clarify? I admittedly have a long history with Dom (he played my first game ever 7 years ago and we consistently butt heads because we approach things differently), but I see absolutely no reason why Dom would behave this way at all if town. Literally everything is textbook scum. Dom makes an assertion that I'm full of crap, but he can't explain it. And now I feel as though, now backed into a corner because I called him out on it, Dom is doubling down on his original assertion that I'm full of shit re: LC, and instead of even briefly trying to explain where he was coming from, he refuses to, and therefore I have every reason to believe he is the one full of shit, and is trying to turn this into a one vs. one argument so that he doesn't have to explain himself -- because he can't. Because he fabricated his opinion. Townies don't care about consistency; they care about getting to the truth. Baddies are much more apt to be consistent in my view; at least when townies are consistent they are able to explain their train of thoughts -- which is EXACTLY what Long Con did when I went back and forth with him over and over and precisely why I'm town reading him. Because LC seemed genuinely interested in convincing others of that fact and in engaging me. Dom doesn't seem concerned with ANY of that at all; instead, he falls back into consistency because it's all he has to play at this point, and he's not trying to convince anyone, he just keeps barking his opinion with little persuasion.

This is important because I feel extremely strongly about this, but I am aware of how I easily can go down rabbitholes as town and lose sight of something to a fault and mislynch a townie, so if you all aren't seeing any of this, I feel as though I need to know why. Because I feel as though we have a 98% chance of lynching a scum in Dom at this moment.

I'll be back later to investigate other things because I feel as though I've taken this as far as I can -- for now I really need to refocus on the PhD. Thanks to everyone else who has contributed other discussion thus far. Let's make this as productive a D2 as possible.

Now, to me, this is a pretty persuasive argument, and he does a lot of citations. If he's a scummer, he's a very INVOLVED scummer, and I don't know his scum vs town style, as I haven't had a chance to review past games. However, I feel that he's town from this and previous posting, as I think that if he was scum, he'd have worked harder to put my feet to the fire.

So [mention]Sloonei[/mention] to answer your question of who I'm leaning towards as scum! Hah, see, I get there eventually.

My main suspects right now (and keep in mind these are suspects, if they post and give me answers, I can go through and rethink things):

Simon (though there are valid RL concerns, but I'm not completely convinced with him)
Long Con (the defense highlighted above, it just seems like "MP gave me a clean bill of health!" without really proving a defense)
Dom (Don't like their side of the argument back and forth with MP. It felt like MP was giving examples and their response was "whatever")

Also, a little tweaky about dunya, just because I think he either missed the vote button or he's being passive-aggressive to me.

can we perhaps ask all players to post itt when they cast a vote or change their vote. I find it very useful and important to see the order and patterns of voting when catching scum. I feel very confused when I just see a tally up there.

That said, I have cast an initial vote on blooper

But you put the vote on me.

Which is fine, it's still 4 hours-ish in the day, but I think it's a little goofy that you said that we should be clear on where we vote and everything... and then you place the vote elsewhere without posting that you changed it. I'm guessing that you placed the vote by mistake since Blooper (seriously, blooper? where do you get these names?!?) is right next to me on the list and you're feeling migrainey?

Going out to dinner now, will be back in about 60-90 mins.

[Tangrowth]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Eloh doesn't look good from this, though it could be a framing job. JoH was the only player who really questioned/suspected Eloh. To kill him is either exactly what it looks like (mafia Eloh shutting him up), or someone who wants us to think that.

Malakim could be Eloh teammate.

Rainbow incoming.

I mean, you're right about me; I hadn't considered anything like that though as I generally stay clear away from NKA as I feel it's too WIFOMy for me. I think this is an intriguing and helpful analysis though. Is there anyone else that might have had motive to kill JOH other than Elo? malakim perhaps because they know each other's meta well?

[Tangrowth]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Just to put forth an alternate opinion, since you seem very sure of this one: when I'm on a bad team, especially night 1, deciding on who to kill is usually something that happens after the lynch is done. If MP07 is bad, then I doubt that he crafted his posts around who was going to be killed night 1. I don't agree with your clearing of him, based on that.

Even though I know I'm cleared in this particular instance, I think your argument encapsulates why I personally prefer to steer clear of NKA. In my experience being bad, I'd generally agree with your assessment, though I suppose I can think of at least one instance where discussion started during the preceding Day.

[Tangrowth]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

massive wifom though.

will join in properly later but need to get this irk off my chest: is it just me or did jjj in his final big post before asking for a replacement not have any opinions about anyone? seemed to just encourage town giving jjjesque advice. surely in your last big post you'd mention SOMEONE giving you bad vibes or something.

He's back to neutral for me i think

It's a good point; I believe you're correct. Jay didn't really leave us with any legacy reads at all, which is a bit disconcerting, but if he was truly outside of the loop perhaps he felt it was inappropriate.

When did he move above neutral? Last I heard, I thought you had considered him neutral already, but maybe I missed or am I misremembering something.

[Tangrowth]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Just to put forth an alternate opinion, since you seem very sure of this one: when I'm on a bad team, especially night 1, deciding on who to kill is usually something that happens after the lynch is done. If MP07 is bad, then I doubt that he crafted his posts around who was going to be killed night 1. I don't agree with your clearing of him, based on that.

Well, here's another way at looking at it: If MP is bad, he knows JoH is good. For him to suspect JoH like he did would mean he has some hope of making JoH look bad, I.E. making him a mislynch.
If MP thinks he can get JoH mislynched, why would he kill JoH?
I am leaving out some factors. Perhaps teammates drove the decision. Perhaps JoH shone so brightly on night 1 that MP gave up on the prospective shade-casting and just killed him. But I don't think so.

MP isn't cleared, for sure. But I'm not voting him today barring some change in circumstances.

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

That's some quick thinkin', Tex.

On the subject of night actiony stuff, has anyone noticed anyone silenced today? I was a bit surprised to find no PM indicating it myself.

[Diiny]

Sorry guys, ended up getting home really late. Mafia was a lot more doable when I was a student. Haven't had time to properly read up.

My suspects remain the same, but I haven't read many of MP's long posts or looked at anything in detail. I'm plopping my vote on the sloon for being relitavely limp. I feel like his prods for people to elaborate their posts define his posting history rather than a drive to actually find scum, which i'm sure I've noticed in your scum game before.

his responses to my accusations are also quite tell-tale in my opinion. When I accuse him of acting scummily and like a previous incarnation of his scummy self back in aol mafia his response was:

"Would you say that this is an accurate description of my posts in this game?"

This timid defense doesn't remind me of a man who KNOWS he's town. Neither does the later "How am I playing _now_?" As if he's seen that he's been too timid and is looking for validation as to his town performance. If you're town sloon, you don't need to ask me how you're playing.

I'm tunnel visioning today because I'd rather bake one read that my gut feels strongly about than half bake several.

Will try and actually play properly tomorrow. If work's slow I'm sure I'll write a few essays and iso some people.

[Tangrowth]

I don't object to your interpretation of events, @MovingPictures07, but I need to hear Dom explain himself a bit better before I put him on the chopping block. He's made an assertion which has gone unsubstantiated to this point. It's certainly possible that you're a liar. I'd like to hear how he came to this conclusion.

That said, I'm not sure I'll be around when the time comes. I am once again working tonight, so I'll miss the deadline. I swear I'm going to be here for a deadline eventually.

I'd also still like to hear from Niju, or any thoughts people might have about this post I made last night.

I would as well, and I suppose I'm letting my frustrations about the whole thing color my perspective inevitably. I have a bad habit of going around and around with Dom specifically, so I'd like to take a step back from that completely and try to examine some other players, even though I haven't had any of my thoughts on the matter dissipate.

Regarding Blooper, I'm sorry to be missing what you picked up on here. Hopefully she can address it.

[Diiny]

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

what if that's what they want you to think
welcome to wifom hell.

[Tangrowth]

im so sorry for my lack of contribution today, but i have a migraine and high fever and have been sleeping it off and working from home when i could work. i will post more asap.

Yikes. Migraines are the worst, let alone + the fever. Feel better soon!

[Tangrowth]

leaning town
MovingPictures
sloonei
speedchuck
Elohcin
Simon
dom
JJJ
diiny

leaning scum
niju
malakim
Long Con

not sure...havent read any real posts from either user? inactive?:
DFaraday
DrWilgy

Are these ordered within groups as well?

Can you expand on the Elo, Simon, and Blooper/niju reads if you haven't already, when you get the chance?

DF did make one post containing content since arriving to the party; I said something about it here. Let me know what you think. Hopefully he can show up again real soon.

[Tangrowth]

Dom is bad, folks. Let's lynch him please. He's flinging bullshit opinions he can't even back up.

lol

You can't summarize your thoughts onto LC into a single sentence. It's because it's a hodgepodge of bullshit that you're going around your ass to get to your elbow to create.

But sure. The person that you, earlier tonight, said was making good points is now bullshitting because they're challenging you.

both reactions from this exchange as someone neutral to both parties strikes me as frustrated townies going at each other. Can definitely understand dom's concerns, but I feel like MP reacted defensively out of frustration to not being able to get his point through (he really has written a lot about LC, and I daresay summarizing doesn't seem to be his forte ). I do think MP mirroring and basically calling dom scum because he called him scum first is defensive frustration, and exactly what scum team wants. let's not get tunnel vision and remember there's more than one target so as strongly as you think you feel about one person, don't waste ALL focus on that person.

This has leveled you both up as town reads to me, tbh. There's more to why I feel dom is town, which I'll get into separately.

I can understand that perspective.

With that said, I am frustrated, especially because Dom and I admittedly have a history of reading each other as scum in practically every game we play together (I can't even think of an exception right now), regardless of our alignments, though vaguely/anecdotally a fair amount of them we were on opposing alignments I'd say. I try to take that into consideration every game when approaching establishing a read on him, increasingly so, but I can't help that I feel as though I've stumbled onto a logical inconsistency here that I think is well worth pursuing, and I couldn't just clarify without trying to pursue and pick his brain first.

I just can't fathom why someone would repeatedly say something is BS, then when questioned about it, instead of trying to explain what they saw in it in addition to asking for clarification, they just only ask for clarification. It's like he's not making any effort to understand where I'm coming from; he automatically swats almost anything I say in any game as convoluted and I'm full of shit. So I was willing to hear him out this time, but the fact that he can't even provide me with any reason he came to that conclusion means I have no reason to believe that he honestly arrived at that conclusion.

It's not so much that I'm not willing to summarize my thoughts -- yes, it would take some work because my views of LC this game have been rather complicated, so I can understand the request for summation -- but I would have been willing to do so, only AFTER Dom clarified what he saw in my thoughts to declare them so emphatically as bullshit. It's important that I thought there was a specific logic underlying Dom's conclusions that I think falls apart when it's picked apart -- D: "I think X is bullshit", M: "why do you think X is bullshit", then D: "well, tell me more about X", and M: "no, why do you think X is bullshit?", and I just don't get it.

I'm just going to let this go for the time being but it still really bothers me because even though I recognize I'm tunneling I still feel like there's something here that's not just town v. town despite a likely blind spot for me.

[Tangrowth]

can we perhaps ask all players to post itt when they cast a vote or change their vote. I find it very useful and important to see the order and patterns of voting when catching scum. I feel very confused when I just see a tally up there.

That said, I have cast an initial vote on blooper

I echo this request.

Why Blooper?

[Tangrowth]

I found a thing. @nijuukyugou

I'm gonna go write for a bit. I'm looking at people who don't stand out, toeing that line of participating and contributing. Too many Days 1 with voting the weirdo.

Linki - I am Blooper! :waves:

In this post you mention some vague unnamed people at whom you are looking, but you never mention any of these people by name. Can you point to anybody who is or was playing with this particular low-key style?

But then later, this:

Okay, cool.

I don't feel great about lurker voting on Day 1, but it's what I feel most comfortable with at this juncture. I'm still open to being persuaded though.

Whom would you vote if you couldn't vote for Bass or another lurker with me?

Probably either JJJ or speed for the votes on Sloonei for the Dhalsim thing. I'm wary of voting that way for the "look at me, I'm standing out on Day 1!" reasons I stated earlier. I want more info, and I like that playing is happening and want to keep it that way for today.

This seems to be the exact opposite of your previously stated line of thought. Whereas you'd previously stated that you're wary of people who don't stand out on Day 1, here you seem to be saying that you are wary of players for standing out too much on Day 1. Which is it? Or are you just wary of anything with a pulse around here?

also i'll point out again that Jay certainly did not vote for me because of what I had to say about Dhalsim, so it strikes me as odd that you would state a suspicion based on something that didn't actually happen. Could you clarify or elaborate on elaborate on what you mean here?

Nap complete. Saw votes on me, then saw a post referring back to this, so I shall respond in this bit of time.

First point: I was referring to no one specifically at the time - my plan was to wait and see who would pop in and out of the water throughout the day, but then my vote ended up on Bass because I wanted to feel out MP's vote and because I didn't like the votes on you and wasn't gonna vote that way.

Second point: you misunderstand my meaning in that sentence, but I see where the ambiguity lies in my wording - I was referring to my desire not to vote for players who stand out, twice. I didn't like their votes on you because they voted precisely the reason/way I DIDN'T want to vote. And I am aware JJJ didn't vote bc of the Dahlsim matter - once again, I was referring to voting for a stand out, but it looks as though I lumped them both together for the same voting reason.

I hope that makes sense, but I can explain it differently if my thoughts need clearing up.

Blooper, can you provide any updated reads? I have very little idea where your mind is at right now. Let's hear some squid thoughts.

[Tangrowth]

i'm sorry i cant contribute more, i really am sick. i read a few old games in hopes of getting a gleam into people's playstyle and it's been useful but im dying

You rock, you've done fine. Get some rest. Thanks for the contributions.

Though I am itching to know more of your thoughts upon your return!

[Tangrowth]

I could vote Eloh to try my luck with nightkill analysis, or Dom. I'll vote before dayend, but I don't think I'll be around for it. Considering.

Do you really feel the NKA is the strongest evidence off of which to base your vote at this time? If so, can you elaborate a bit as to why?

[Tangrowth]

Blooper's response does address the points that I was concerned about and I can see where my misinterpretation stems from. I feel slightly better in that regard, but there's nothing she said that compels me to read her as town. She's closer to neutral than scum than she was earlier, at least.

Instead I'll place my vote on Elohcin. Her reaction to the nightkill is not sitting well with me.

Boo Mafia!!!

Her initial reaction is a hollow "I don't like this, mafia are jerks!" comment. This sort of post always rings false to me. The she makes a few other posts about unrelated game things, and when Speedchuck presents his thoughts on the kill, speculating on how Elohcin may or may not be implicated in it, Eloh hops on it with a rather strong stance:

Frame job for sure.

I pressed her on this, and her responses were not particularly illuminating and as I've thought about it I've been feeling less inspired by it. It strikes me as if she is trying to share as little of her thoughts as she can get away with, and I don't like that:

Spoiler: show

Who framed you?

Someone who is reading enough of the thread to be able to know JoH thought I'm bad. But also someone who thought it was a possibility that other players would believe the frame job as true. Who could that be?

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

Its what I immediately thought when reading the results last night. But I didn't say anything because I figured people would shoot down the idea and just claim I was bad.

Seems like backtracking. There is no evidence of her thinking this until someone else brought it up long after her initial reaction to the kill

Why was it your first thought?

Because JoH has been after me.

The vaguest answer possible, reducing the nightkill down entirely to an issue of her position in this game. Seems a bit paranoid to me.

I have to go in a half hour now (jeez it took longer to make this post than I wanted), so I'd like to hear some thoughts on this before I go. What do people think of Eloh?

I suppose I can see that, particularly the bolded/underlined assertion. Elo does concern me a bit. Not sure she's pinging the scumdar, but it'd be nice if she can provide some more reads ASAP.

[Tangrowth]

It does not look like I will be around to get any clarification from Dom. There's still plenty of time for him to get on and make some noise, but I won't be around to hear it until later. What do we all think of Dom at this point?

I'm still tempted to keep my vote there pending his clarification, but I'll try to do some digging otherwise because I feel like I still have very vague feelings/reads about half the players in this game.

[Tangrowth]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

Can you explain why when you get the chance?

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Just popping in on phone for a second to respond to this as I stay caught up:

I don't buy that MP totally thinks you're civ for a second.

Why not? I'm in the elite green of his list, and he's stated more than once that he doesn't think I'm bad, if I recall correctly.

I don't see that as genuine for a second.

Can you explain what specifically leads you to that conclusion? I need to try to figure out whether you're just painting me with a mafia brush opportunistically or whether you genuinely believe I'm being dishonest, and I can't do that if all you say is you don't find my read of LC to be genuine and don't elaborate.

Perhaps you could answer some questions for me about it to better explain myself.

In ten words or less (TEN WORDS OR LESS): why is LC good?

No. You're not deflecting this back onto me. I've spoken about LC at length and you're the one who made the statement accusing me of dishonesty. You made an assertion and stated it more than once that you don't buy my read of LC to be genuine. That means the burden of proof is on YOU to substantiate that claim, because you already apparently read what I said enough to make a strongly worded judgment that you think I'm lying. Therefore it's your responsibility to explain yourself, otherwise you're just slinging mud baselessly and that's incredibly suspicious.

(The broken quote was bothering the #### out of me there. Had to fix that.)

This is the post that caught my eye, really. Been thinking about this. I highlighted LC's response because I really don't like that defense of "well, I'm cleared by MP!" It just seems akin to the cop hitting a person that has a town cloak and them going, "Hey, look, I'm town because so-and-so proved it!" You aren't saying you're town because of what you've done, but rather because what other people are presuming. Honestly, this reads to me like both Dom and MP are town, though I'd say Dom is moreso than MP in THIS post, if only because MP gets defensive about speaking at length. HOWEVER...

MP does follow up today with this post.

I won't be around until the early evening Central/Eastern time at the earliest.

I haven't caught up but I want to emphasize that I'm still feeling strongly about Dom. Since I know I won't be around until closer to the deadline, I wanted to take a handful of minutes here to clarify as clearly as possible why I suspect Dom as strongly as I do. So here's my interpretation of the exact train of events as it went down, and I want some outside opinions on this (barring they haven't come already and aren't going to anyway) to see what you all think -- and significantly, make sure I'm not just tunneling because it's about me, so I'm curious as to whether any of you all agree that (1) this is indeed how it went down and (2) this is suspicious, because I feel that it's important.

Dom: I believe MP is being dishonest about his feelings re: LC. (He said this not only here but again here in a very assertive/strongly worded fashion.)

MP: I request that you explain how you came to this conclusion -- because I cannot discern how you did so and this is important as to make a determination as to whether you are lying or not. (I said this here after he made the assertion twice as referenced above.)

Dom: Restate your feelings on LC (succinctly, specifically in 10 words or less) so that I can better explain myself. (He said this here.)

MP: You avoided answering my question, and I feel that is suspicious. I will not acquiesce to your request to summarize because you made the assertion accusing me of dishonesty, therefore it is your responsibility to expand on how you reached that conclusion. reference

Dom: I refuse to acquiesce to your request and I double down on my assertion that you're bullshitting. reference

MP: You STILL haven't answered the question. This is suspicious. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you think my LC thoughts are disingenuous. reference

Why would a townie not make any effort at all to clarify? I admittedly have a long history with Dom (he played my first game ever 7 years ago and we consistently butt heads because we approach things differently), but I see absolutely no reason why Dom would behave this way at all if town. Literally everything is textbook scum. Dom makes an assertion that I'm full of crap, but he can't explain it. And now I feel as though, now backed into a corner because I called him out on it, Dom is doubling down on his original assertion that I'm full of shit re: LC, and instead of even briefly trying to explain where he was coming from, he refuses to, and therefore I have every reason to believe he is the one full of shit, and is trying to turn this into a one vs. one argument so that he doesn't have to explain himself -- because he can't. Because he fabricated his opinion. Townies don't care about consistency; they care about getting to the truth. Baddies are much more apt to be consistent in my view; at least when townies are consistent they are able to explain their train of thoughts -- which is EXACTLY what Long Con did when I went back and forth with him over and over and precisely why I'm town reading him. Because LC seemed genuinely interested in convincing others of that fact and in engaging me. Dom doesn't seem concerned with ANY of that at all; instead, he falls back into consistency because it's all he has to play at this point, and he's not trying to convince anyone, he just keeps barking his opinion with little persuasion.

This is important because I feel extremely strongly about this, but I am aware of how I easily can go down rabbitholes as town and lose sight of something to a fault and mislynch a townie, so if you all aren't seeing any of this, I feel as though I need to know why. Because I feel as though we have a 98% chance of lynching a scum in Dom at this moment.

I'll be back later to investigate other things because I feel as though I've taken this as far as I can -- for now I really need to refocus on the PhD. Thanks to everyone else who has contributed other discussion thus far. Let's make this as productive a D2 as possible.

Now, to me, this is a pretty persuasive argument, and he does a lot of citations. If he's a scummer, he's a very INVOLVED scummer, and I don't know his scum vs town style, as I haven't had a chance to review past games. However, I feel that he's town from this and previous posting, as I think that if he was scum, he'd have worked harder to put my feet to the fire.

So @Sloonei to answer your question of who I'm leaning towards as scum! Hah, see, I get there eventually.

My main suspects right now (and keep in mind these are suspects, if they post and give me answers, I can go through and rethink things):

Simon (though there are valid RL concerns, but I'm not completely convinced with him)
Long Con (the defense highlighted above, it just seems like "MP gave me a clean bill of health!" without really proving a defense)
Dom (Don't like their side of the argument back and forth with MP. It felt like MP was giving examples and their response was "whatever")

Also, a little tweaky about dunya, just because I think he either missed the vote button or he's being passive-aggressive to me.

can we perhaps ask all players to post itt when they cast a vote or change their vote. I find it very useful and important to see the order and patterns of voting when catching scum. I feel very confused when I just see a tally up there.

That said, I have cast an initial vote on blooper

But you put the vote on me.

Which is fine, it's still 4 hours-ish in the day, but I think it's a little goofy that you said that we should be clear on where we vote and everything... and then you place the vote elsewhere without posting that you changed it. I'm guessing that you placed the vote by mistake since Blooper (seriously, blooper? where do you get these names?!?) is right next to me on the list and you're feeling migrainey?

Going out to dinner now, will be back in about 60-90 mins.

Hey, malakim, first off, thanks for fixing the quotes. Was bothering me too but I didn't get around to doing so.

I have a clarification question regarding your assessment of the situation. Refer to the orange highlighted sections. Those thoughts regarding Dom specifically seem to be exhibiting some cognitive dissonance for me. Can you explain how you scum read him despite your earlier conclusion that you believe he looks town?

[Tangrowth]

Sorry guys, ended up getting home really late. Mafia was a lot more doable when I was a student. Haven't had time to properly read up.

My suspects remain the same, but I haven't read many of MP's long posts or looked at anything in detail. I'm plopping my vote on the sloon for being relitavely limp. I feel like his prods for people to elaborate their posts define his posting history rather than a drive to actually find scum, which i'm sure I've noticed in your scum game before.

his responses to my accusations are also quite tell-tale in my opinion. When I accuse him of acting scummily and like a previous incarnation of his scummy self back in aol mafia his response was:

"Would you say that this is an accurate description of my posts in this game?"

This timid defense doesn't remind me of a man who KNOWS he's town. Neither does the later "How am I playing _now_?" As if he's seen that he's been too timid and is looking for validation as to his town performance. If you're town sloon, you don't need to ask me how you're playing.

I'm tunnel visioning today because I'd rather bake one read that my gut feels strongly about than half bake several.

Will try and actually play properly tomorrow. If work's slow I'm sure I'll write a few essays and iso some people.

Hey, Diiny, I see what you're saying about Sloonei. It seems to me to be a logical extension of Jay's arguments while he was present in the game -- that Sloonei is lacking town spark or some sort of conviction. I wasn't seeing what Jay was saying, but I have to admit that specifically what you outline here gives me some serious pause for Sloonei whom I think I'm otherwise taking as town a bit too easily. Food for thought. I'll take a look at his posts myself to see if I come to the same conclusion.

I'm incredibly anxious to hear what you have to say about Elo, myself, and Blooper particularly, but really any others as well, especially given your cryptic post from earlier today, so please elaborate when you get the chance! I'm not sure it's apparent what your beefs would be otherwise.

[Tangrowth]

Well, that's that. There's alarmingly little time remaining in the Day, especially considering how many players I really feel I don't have any real idea where their heads/reads are at currently. That's especially disconcerting. Guess I'll try to do some digging now and hopefully that'll assist.

[Tangrowth]

Seriously, wow, 2 hours to go and we only have 4 votes. And votes are changeable. wtf, guys? If you haven't voted and especially if you haven't posted yet this cycle, please come in here!

[Tangrowth]

Who wants some ISOs? Doesn't matter because you'll get some!

[Tangrowth]

ISO - DFaraday

DF has 2 posts. The first was apologizing for his absence, the second is as follows:

Spoiler: show

Sorry! I'm here now and catching up.

Good luck. MP's been on a rampage.

If you could weigh in on Sloonei, MP, Eloh, LC, Diiny, and Simon, that seems to be the focus of discussion. And me.

Or heck, make a rainbow. The game isn't huge.

The MP/LC thing really didn't go anywhere. I don't feel like it helped anything, but I don't suspect MP for latching onto something minor, especially on Day 1.

Simon sounds like perfectly ordinary Simon to me. Eloh has been contributing and reads genuine to me.

Sloonei's posts feel good to me, and him voting Bass is sensible given his situation.

Diiny and Dunya keep getting mixed up in my mind, but I'm reading both civ. Diiny in particular comes off as supatown.

The only person I've felt any suspicion towards is Ninja. She's made a fair few posts, but not much in the way of memorable content. She's coming across as noncommittal to me.

EBWOP: I'm not one to go for meta, but Eloh's contributions this game feel in keeping with her usual civ style, I think.

I already spoke to this here. Basically, I like the way DF entered the game and quickly spewed these reads. The post seems genuine, even if the reads aren't really substantiated greatly.

And that's it. I still slightly town read DF, but it'd be incredibly appreciated if he could come back in here before the deadline and give us some more thoughts/reads, even if they're relatively uninformed. Otherwise this is all we have to go on, but I at least think it's fodder enough for a weak read.

Final conclusion: DFaraday is a slight town read.

[nijuukyugou]

Argh. I'm mad about game-unrelated shit that just happened and I need to take the damned night off to cool off. I'll just read what I can later when I'm in a conducive and better mood. Sorry, y'all.

[Tangrowth]

Argh. I'm mad about game-unrelated shit that just happened and I need to take the damned night off to cool off. I'll just read what I can later when I'm in a conducive and better mood. Sorry, y'all.

Sorry to hear it, hope everything works out OK!

[Simon]

I can't keep up with you Moving Pictures.

[Tangrowth]

I can't keep up with you Moving Pictures.

Hey bud! Well, that's OK. What thoughts/reads do you have of your own?

[Tangrowth]

ISO - Diiny

Diiny has 34 posts, which puts in him the mid-high post count tier.

Spoiler: show

gah no roleclaiming/outing really goes against my instincts

how have you found adapting, JJJ? iirc that's how the majority of games are played here

This post read a bit forced to me as I previously noted here. I'm not sure I really think I can discern anything alignment-indicative from it though. Null.

I like Diiny's next string of posts though -- they include pointed interrogations of Blooper, JOH (with accompanied pressure vote), Simon, and me. He also threw out a vague town read of dunya. I suppose these could all be faked by a mafia Diiny, but they fit my meta expectation of him and display Diiny with a strong town spark to get conversation going in the early stages of the game. At face value, I like it. Town.

The next string of posts (I'm getting lazy already, so open up the ISO if you want references here) involves a conversation between Diiny and me regarding Simon and my reads at the time. I still tend to think these are reflective of a Diiny with his game-solving hat on, which would indicate a townie unless he's faking it really well. Then some further conversation with me, LC, and JOH. I don't see anything alarming any of these lines of questioning, though it perhaps would be more ideal if Diiny would display more of his own thoughts, instead of strictly playing interrogator. That's my only concern as of yet through most of Day 1.

The first real concern is Diiny's D1 vote for Sloonei. It's sort of unclear how Diiny arises to this vote considering most of his grilling prior to that was directed at me, LC, and JOH. In fact... he had literally no interactions on Sloonei and never mentioned him once, despite the fact that he was a subject of discussion (namely by Jay). That's odd, to say the least, especially in light of his other interrogations throughout the Day. The only thing I can think of that supports Diiny's vote is:

oh, you're voting for a lurker.

defending players that have actually talked, being very very tentative with your scum reads AND voting for a lurker. I'm uncomfortable.

which was in response to my vote post for Bass. The only theory I can surmise is that Diiny didn't want to lynch Bass and Sloonei was cast as his vote because he was the leading counterwagon. It would be appreciated if Diiny can speak more to this though and what exactly was going on in his head throughout D1 as he interrogated various players. As much as I see the town spark all throughout and appreciate those interrogations, it's not really ever too clear what Diiny's reads actually are throughout all of it.

Overall, GTH I'd say Diiny looks town from D1, but I do have some concerns, particularly surrounding his vote and his lack of clearly stated reads despite various assertive lines of questioning.

Diiny's contributions since D1 ended have dropped off, which is perhaps a bit disconcerting, so hopefully he will be able to elaborate upon the few posts he made today soon. He did make a solid observation regarding Jay (or so I think anyway), but he says that Jay is "back to neutral", and again, I refer to Diiny's posts and the last thing he seemingly says about Jay is that he is neutral. So consider me thoroughly confused as to what Diiny's reads actually are, other than the following post:

Spoiler: show

people i distrust: sloo, eloh, squid, mp.

will elaborate when home from work.

which is nice to know scum reads, but it's not apparent from Diiny's post history except perhaps for me why he might have beefs with any of these players. He has no direct interactions with Sloonei, Elohcin, or Blooper, and from what I can tell never he even mentioned them prior to this post. Agh. Not sure what to do with it.

Then Diiny has a subsequent post where he doubles down a vote on Sloonei:

Spoiler: show

Sorry guys, ended up getting home really late. Mafia was a lot more doable when I was a student. Haven't had time to properly read up.

My suspects remain the same, but I haven't read many of MP's long posts or looked at anything in detail. I'm plopping my vote on the sloon for being relitavely limp. I feel like his prods for people to elaborate their posts define his posting history rather than a drive to actually find scum, which i'm sure I've noticed in your scum game before.

his responses to my accusations are also quite tell-tale in my opinion. When I accuse him of acting scummily and like a previous incarnation of his scummy self back in aol mafia his response was:

"Would you say that this is an accurate description of my posts in this game?"

This timid defense doesn't remind me of a man who KNOWS he's town. Neither does the later "How am I playing _now_?" As if he's seen that he's been too timid and is looking for validation as to his town performance. If you're town sloon, you don't need to ask me how you're playing.

I'm tunnel visioning today because I'd rather bake one read that my gut feels strongly about than half bake several.

Will try and actually play properly tomorrow. If work's slow I'm sure I'll write a few essays and iso some people.

It's plausible that some of these thoughts were what Diiny had when he cast a vote for Sloonei on D1 as well, but it's not clear from his post history, at least from my standpoint. It is potentially disconcerting that a mafia!Diiny could be piggybacking off of Jay's thoughts re: Sloonei and using them as a launch point for this suspicion (which would be faked); it's unclear what is currently going inside Diiny's head regarding the other reads he threw out because he didn't really have the chance to elaborate. Not ideal.

Lastly, Diiny also commented on the NKA and pretty much dismissed it all as WIFOM. It would be less than ideal if Diiny is a mafia member and posting his sentiments to discourage that kind of discussion. He could sincerely believe it to be worthless. I'm not sure what to make of it.

=======================================================================================

I am incredibly torn about Diiny's ISO. On one hand, I feel like his D1 interrogations were some of the towniest stuff all game and he looks great and inspired to uncover alignments. On the other hand, the lack of concrete reads and clarity regarding how his interrogations were influencing his reads is concerning because he could be faking his interrogations to seem contributory all the while avoiding providing too many concrete details on his reads. Having typed both of those out, however, I'm inclined to believe the former scenario is more likely. I do believe Diiny's attempts to scumhunt appear genuine at face value, and it's entirely believable that his reads have followed from his lines of interrogation, but it'd be nice for him to elaborate once he gets the chance to. I'd say the good outweighs the bad, but because I do have some concerns, not overly so at this time, especially given his drop in activity during D2.

Final conclusion: Diiny is a slight town read.

[Tangrowth]

It seems DFaraday voted for Blooper. Hopefully he can elaborate. It is possible he is the one silenced given a lack of accompanying post, but I find it very unlikely the mafia would choose to silence a low poster.

[malakim2099]

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

what if that's what they want you to think
welcome to wifom hell.

Noob question: What is wifom?

[Tangrowth]

There's only a little more than hour remaining... I'm going to try to refocus my digging on players who currently have a vote in the interest of time.