Buckets: War of the GOATs [END]

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Like it's not a bad look, its just nai

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Anyways I'm getting that feeling in thread tonight that you two are both town, which fits my confirmation bias, so yeah, still gonna try to do some due diligence at some point in the day but I'm currently feeling decent about the tsp vulgard poe

[ilario]

Ilario calling out the "slip" is kinda good look.

funnily enough it was wiml who defended it

maybe that means something idkkk

[Vulgard]

Okay, so here’s the deal.

1. I would’ve liked to talk more yesterday, “thanks” for hammering.
2. I don’t think it’s illario, and it isn’t me. The solve Banook and TSP seem to be pushing (especially NANOOK) is wrong somewhere.
3. LC wasn’t a difficult wolf to catch when you actually looked at their posts and realized they weren’t solving the game. I expected most players in this game to realize that. I assume he was already a wagon when I replaced in for a good reason. Therefore, I think giving too much credit to people who pushed on him earlier in the game is a mistake. It’s possible the other wolf always planned to bus and was setting up for it at the time. I mean, if LC was pushed on by a few players earlier in the game, why have those players not died? I realize I’m missing some context here and may be mistaken in my assumptions, but I really do think lock clearing anyone for this is a mistake.
4. I personally think the most likely wolf is Ender based on what I’ve seen ‘in the moment’ from each player, and on a more macro level from specifically illario. I haven’t read enough NANOOK and TSP posts on day 1 to have a macroread on them, but I think illario’s been consistently villagery to a point that I can’t see myself voting him this game, probably not even in final 3. NANOOK had a fairly towny entrance day 1, and TSP has been fairly towny “in the moment,” in my opinion. This SOD from him, and our brief real-time interactions, remind me of Elder Scrolls, where we were V/V. Ender hasn’t been villagery, and while I haven’t seen the part where he “pushed LC” yet, by the sound of it – everyone alive has pushed LC, so…?
5. As for who’s a wolf if Ender isn’t – I’ll figure this out in f3 if I’m alive, because it strongly depends on who’s nightkilled. My current reads go illario>TSP>NANOOK>Ender, and that’s fairly obvious if you look at how I’m talking about each slot, so I might as well make it clear.
6. I’ll be ISOing people today to get a better overview of the game, and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t quickhammer again.
7. Sorry, alexa!

[Vulgard]

I may think Ender is a wolf, but I'm not nearly confident enough to slap a vote on him and leave the thread, so I'll read more. Me being wrong on illario isn't impossible, I just find it unlikely considering what I've seen from him on day 1.

And before someone complains about how I keep focusing on day 1 - that's the only part of the game I've read, and not even in full. This is the pain of replacing into a game with a ton of posts, I can't reasonably parse everything. But I will try.

[Vulgard]

...I just called NANOOK "Banook."

I have no idea how that happened.

[Vulgard]

Alexa dying here could possibly mean something, but I'd need higher gamestate awareness to figure out what.
Anyone got any ideas?

[EnderWiggin]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

[EnderWiggin]

Alexa dying here could possibly mean something, but I'd need higher gamestate awareness to figure out what.
Anyone got any ideas?

Alexa was shielding LC until I wore her into voting him.

After LC is dead, having the consensus townread protecting LC wasn't relevant anymore.

[EnderWiggin]

Nanook's comfortability voting partners is my only question mark tbh. He has been more in town meta tho.

[Vulgard]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

This is the problem with replacing into games that have had a ton of posts, I simply don't know. I'm making a lot of assumptions. It seemed like an easy wolf-pick to me because he wasn't villagery even on day 1, but I don't actually know how the game went.

[EnderWiggin]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

This is the problem with replacing into games that have had a ton of posts, I simply don't know. I'm making a lot of assumptions. It seemed like an easy wolf-pick to me because he wasn't villagery even on day 1, but I don't actually know how the game went.

Start by ISOing the dead wolf.

[Vulgard]

Alexa dying here could possibly mean something, but I'd need higher gamestate awareness to figure out what.
Anyone got any ideas?

Alexa was shielding LC until I wore her into voting him.

After LC is dead, having the consensus townread protecting LC wasn't relevant anymore.

I felt like her OMGUSing me would be a problem if LC was town, because having that in LyLo and her being town would be pure pain. Could've been killed to implicate me, I suppose, since she did push on me yesterday a bit (and more on Wiml earlier afaik?). But she also voted like 3 other players yesterday, so that's probably not very meaningful.

[Vulgard]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

This is the problem with replacing into games that have had a ton of posts, I simply don't know. I'm making a lot of assumptions. It seemed like an easy wolf-pick to me because he wasn't villagery even on day 1, but I don't actually know how the game went.

Start by ISOing the dead wolf.

Will do.

[Vulgard]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

This is the problem with replacing into games that have had a ton of posts, I simply don't know. I'm making a lot of assumptions. It seemed like an easy wolf-pick to me because he wasn't villagery even on day 1, but I don't actually know how the game went.

Start by ISOing the dead wolf.

Will do.

[Vulgard]

...Not sure what happened there.
Anyway.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Hammering what was at that point close to a foregone conclusion doesn't clear tsp lol

shh you're supposed to angle me for a nightkill

There are other NKs id prefer lol

that’s a mistake smh

[TonyStarkPrime]

Nanook top town, winning Poe: …

[TonyStarkPrime]

(Yes that’s a gift say thank you)

[EnderWiggin]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

[EnderWiggin]

why are you surprised by the kill Alexa

I still thought she was village but the transcend town flip made her be the townread I questioned the most

Every game I’ve had with me/LC/ilario as v/v/v one of us has died n1 because we just clear each other easily which is hard for wolves

has this led to you doubting your reads on lc/ilario?

I actually don't think this post comes from LC's partner.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Really?

[EnderWiggin]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Really?

Really what?

[TonyStarkPrime]

I mean I’ll accept the Ilario townsheep if we’re going for it but like the iso is not encouraging

[EnderWiggin]

What do you see in the ISO that's particularly bad?

[EnderWiggin]

Why doesn't w!Nanook NK me?

I've been one of his stronger tr, and going into EOD I just led a flip on his partner. People were mostly townreading me bar Wiml in thread.

Nanook WAS also townreading Alexa and that does remove the Ilario shield if that's the aim.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Vulgard]

ISOing the dead wolf:

Spoiler: show

kind of gut townreading EnderWiggin

Agreeing with you. The "I'll find him by Day 3" post was actually kinda bad ass and towny.

Meh.

Oh yeah, Soda's not town yet.

We'll see where that goes.

do i know you from EM?

Were you around pre-2014?

Splinterfright, former mod/player from around that time. I sorta-left around 2014 tho.

Did you ever play in Vivor/Big Brother lobby or played those games?

I'll admit this has "a wolf who wants to be included in a v/v off-topic conversation" energies.

My Mac wolf read is that I assume he's aware of Lime Coke's ranges

Meaning that Lime Coke's someone he's probably not going to have hopes of push, and the best way to handle that is just town reading Lime Coke quick to get on his good side and be 'correct'

Especially considering I don't think LC's posts prior were actually towny, especially not to someone who doesn't know his meta

I need you to describe to me what my ranges are because your reads on me are always odd.

Aren't they always correct, though?

You scumread my slot in DV maf when I was town because I wrote a wall post.

Convo for another time but yeah your read on me most games are descriptions I just don't expect ever.

This would hardspew Esooa town if she were alive.

I have Nanook, Ender, and Esooa townread as well.

I feel like this is the kind of post where you'd throw in a partner if you aren't afraid of townreading partners, especially since I don't see him explaining any of them. They are 'slipped in.'
Does Lime Coke trend toward bussing partners or defending partners as mafia?

LC has really done nothing particularly townie. I don't feel his obviousness spewing out of every orifice and I find LC to be a pretty easy read. People who have a strong read on LC are suspect.

Well I mean...our wolf game together just ended. You literally have 0 reason to be scared of my wolf game.

There's plenty of people here that have seen my town game this game.

Another dead villager he's spewing town...

I mean the people townreading me confidently are Alexa, who I've stated we've been t/t around 10 games by now, and Illario, which pinged me but if he's actually town this game then holy shit we've made progress. Both are from my homesite and have played with me numerous times.

I believe the others were Ender and Mac? I haven't seen their reasoning but they are the ones that have played only 1 or 2 games with me. Ender I'm confident is town as I've stated before, Mac I gotta see what's going on the later the game goes.

He has no reasoning for any of these reads, really. And if he put four villagers in here, then he's boxing himself in by doing this.

ALSO his early line "i have two scumreads but i won't out them" is the exact kind of performative thing i'd say as scum

u literally said u had thoughts at the start of game but didn't out them as well. why is his post performative but urs wasn't?

Because she didn't mean it.

answering questions that aren't aimed at u is a pretty big scumtell

jsyk

I've never heard of that.

However seriously scumreading a post that's a joke is a pretty big scumtell.

Everyone he's hardspewing town so far is dead.

@ EnderWiggin

So where are we going on D2? Are we gonna go to a nice restaurant? What about a movie? Are we gonna go on a long walk on the beach and dance in the moonlight? I'm down for whatever. ☺

Weird post.

@alexa

If you're still on, serious question:

How confident are you in Illario being town currently?

This points toward illario being town. This looks like he's trying to open his box a little by considering pushing illario at some point, and he wouldn't do that to a partner. He had three confident townreads, if he slotted a partner in there then he wouldn't target them with this.

Alexa's a flipped villager, leaving Ender.

@EnderWiggin

So where are we going on D2? Are we gonna go to a nice restaurant? What about a movie? Are we gonna go on a long walk on the beach and dance in the moonlight? I'm down for whatever. ☺

A long drive off a short bridge.

A THRILL SEEKER! MY FAVORITE!!!

This does kinda feel like he's talking to a villager here, though it realistically probably should be NAI considering it's not even about the game.

I was eating popcorn.

Why does Nanook have a wagon?

Hm.

Nah I think Alexa is fine her reads are typically all over the place as town.

Yeah, he TMId her as town super hard. Might just be the reason she was killed, honestly, nothing to do with framing anyone.

Which is usually have some decent reads and then wail in thread for three days

I'm laughing at this post.

Mild V points for TSP? Don't think this is how a wolf reacts to a partner's post, but it's nothing clearing.

He's doing a lot of "fillering" with Ender afterward, Transcend called him out on it.

Okay but seriously.

Townreads:
Alexa
Esooa
Ender
Nanook
Illario (Sheeping Alexa)


That's all I have currently.

Okay, now this is really weird. Alexa is his TMI townread and a flipped villager, Esooa's a flipped villager too. Nanook is here for no reason at all. His previous post about nanook was questioning why nanook was a wagon, and here he slots nanook into his townreads for no reason whatsoever. It reads like he's trying to defend Nanook without saying that he's defending Nanook, and that's a bad look for Nanook - because LC has no reason to do this if Nanook's V.

Ender being here is another thing. I haven't found a single line in LC's ISO where he visibly reaches the conclusion Ender's town, and he seems attached to the read despite most of his interactions with Ender being pure shitposting. I could actually see this one being a pocket on LC's part; I think their interactions are a little too strange to be partner interactions. However, I'm not closing the book on that option yet.

Illario being here specifically as "sheeping Alexa" looks like LC continuing to try and keep illario as a possible lategame misyeet. He townreads him with reservations, defers to alexa on the read, and seems to be setting up progression steps to flip on illario lategame. This is also where I retract my earlier point about him being bussable; if I'm correct about this, then he definitely wasn't playing with "being bussed" in mind, at least not early in the game. I don't think illario is a wolf, because if he's a wolf, then why does LC decide to put the greatest number of conditionals on his wolf partner townread? Wouldn't you want to slot your partner as confident town if you're going that route? By putting so many conditionals around them, you're maintaining suspicion on the slot, and you would generally want to diffuse it.

This only makes sense as partners with illario if LC trends toward bussing partners, in which case he's laying groundwork for a lategame bus, but he doesn't seem to play like a busser so far. He's not pushing aggressively and he seems to wish to invade the towncore. If anything, it seems he was trying to deepwolf (funny how that ended).

@Lime Coke can you explain your Ender read to me please?

The main thing I was townreading him for was his post when he stated that he figures that he'd lock my alignment in D2 or D3. Which I found oddly accurate because that's when people I know will usually find me when I'm mafia.

That actually looks super partnery with Ender, because he's insisting Ender's town for a pretty bad reason, and he's insisting on that while interacting with my slot. The shielding doesn't feel natural. Or rather, it doesn't feel like shielding a villager to me, because the fabricated reason's super terrible. If Ender were town being whiteknighted, I'd expect LC to find a better reason for the whiteknighting simply because those reasons would have to exist (townies are inherently towny in some ways and wolves can pick up on that). I think I'm explaining this poorly, but basically, if Ender were town I'd expect LC's reasons for defending him to be better. It's harder to find reasons for shielding a partner than it is for shielding a villager when you're a wolf, because villagers are inherently villagery and wolves are not.

Y'all seriously have to fucking push me at the worst times?

I'm driving now fuck off for a second.

matt's been pushing you from day one

ilario and i commented that your lack of reaction to that is a bit odd but .. it's not really a push, relax

I know Matt has been pushing me all game I just got annoyed with others coming in on that, sorry.

i'm surprised that alison isn't confident LC is town this game if she ranks his scum game a 2 lols

She's seen how bad I play as scum. You can read our maf chat I was literally asking her what to do the ENTIRE game and did draft posts in the chat.

Y'all seriously have to fucking push me at the worst times?

I'm driving now fuck off for a second.

Theres no hammer today so

Also, like, people push when they push, there's no rule or etiquette that says you have to wait for someone to be online to push them lol

I know, I just got annoyed by that happening right before I leave. I always get pushed at the worst possible times, like when I'm about to go to sleep or about to drive and I'm forced to stay on and defend myself otherwise it looks like I froze and I'm outed because I leave the game when I start being pushed.

@Lime Coke can you explain your townread on Nanook/out an ordered reads' list when you have a chance?

I'll answer the question first;

I started townreading Nanook early for townreading and coming to your defense in the early game. That's actually it, I haven't really read him since then because he was away until today while I was at work so I haven't paid enough attention to his posts.

The Nanook townread here is equally ??? as Ender's, but here, he leaves a caveat to move to scumreading him. He doesn't leave that caveat for Ender.
Which actually looks more partnered with Ender than Nook, if I assume he's been trying to defend his partner and not bus them. The lack of wolf flips until yesterday points toward defending, or slotting in PoE and pushing elsewhere - but LC doesn't even have a PoE at this point, so.

READLIIIIIIST:


Town:
Alexa
Esooa
Ender
Alison
Illario
Wiml
Mac
Nanook
TSP
Transcend
Maf:

The bottom 3 are more POE.

Something something rule of 3 (Nanook/TSP/Transcend).

Ender really has no right to be this high.

Wiml just feels like solid town to me

Same.

Okay, he's outright TMIng my slot town here. Compare Wiml's placement on his previous readlist to the statement he presents here. The readlist had Wiml roughly at null - smack dab in the middle of it. But here, he's like "Wiml is solid town." There is absolutely no explanation for it, no progression, no justification, nothing. He just says that seemingly on instinct or based on a fabricated gut feeling. And sure, you could argue that he has no reason to call my slot solid town when I'm an open misyeet option, but the fact remains that he does - and it's so out of left field that it reads like instinctive TMI rather than anything agenda'd. I'll see if he was planning to shield my slot later in the game, but either way this is complete nonsense to me.

Ender just magically knows people's meta without actually being in games with them. I wish I had that ability.

The more he randomly mentions Ender like this, though, the more I feel like Ender might just be a villager LC's trying to pocket. He has more interactions with Ender and alexa than anyone else in the game so far, and alexa flipped town.

Always know, that wherever you are, Ender will be there.

Posts like these. Like, sure, wolves can interact with each other, but what I'm seeing here is that LC keeps randomly mentioning Ender and Ender alone, while Ender doesn't seem to be mentioning LC as much - at least, there's nothing as visible in this ISO. The constant mentioning of Ender and not trying to fake determining his alignment reads as simultaneously: TMI on Ender being town and trying to pocket Ender with this commentary.

Always know, that wherever you are, Ender will be there.

Oh god. LC stop making me sound like a stalker

The way you're saying everything is fucking hilarious to me.

Probably the pocketiest (is that even a word?) post about this so far.

I don't think we can use the Gira "Kill the more active players will allow mafia players to eat on inactivity" because this game has been one of the most active I've ever played...EVERYONE has been active.

And I say that as a EM player...

LC'S PARTNER MUST BE A HIGHPOSTER BECAUSE OF THIS COMMENT!!! HIGHPOSTERS WOLVES!!!
Just kidding. But really, this ISO is a dumpster fire so far. I'm not sure why this was ever townread, hence my earlier comment. What were you doing while I wasn't here?

if wiml is town then esooa/Alison/ilario/transcend contain wolves with ilario/esooa or ilario/Alison or transcend/Alison being the team

if Alison is town its wiml/transcend with esooa as swing

if transcend is town it's just wiml/ilario

if ilario is town wiml is always a wolf

if esooa is town it's wiml/transcend with Alison as swing

I'm talking this type of post, is there a world where Mac makes this post as mafia?

Yes, he obviously can. This kind of post is extremely easy to make as mafia, I don't know why you felt it was unfakeable.

Just felt like an extremely intricate post that would be hard to make as mafia.

Then again I guess I have a lot to learn?

If you've seen him do this before then I believe you. Not the first time I've incorrectly townread someone for 1 singular reason.

More TMIng flipped villagers as town...

With the way this game is going honestly, I feel like we'll get a mafia flip at EOD. Got some nice confidence this game.

This is not a post written by someone whose partner is in a bad spot at the time. Sure, it's fakeable, but this post's very existence points toward the partner being either miscleared or under the radar. LC reads to me like a somewhat impulsive player who tried to invade the towncore all game, my psychological read tells me this post would not exist if the wolf was PoEd already.

What was the day 1 consensus at the time? I looked through a few pages around the time of LC writing this post, but I didn't find anything like a read summary - other than a push on Mac, which gives me nothing as he's a flipped villager.

With the way this game is going honestly, I feel like we'll get a mafia flip at EOD. Got some nice confidence this game.

Why do you think i'm mafia

I had a list of reasons but I forgot as the day is ending and I end up taking stuff that makes me sleepy but here we go.

Scumreading me, then the slight shade towards Ender for his "future push" on me as if you thought I was town, then going back to scumreading me immediately.

The denial of the "god townread" on Alexa and the meta explanations.

I actually had like 4 total reasons to scumread you but that was at like 8 PM my time, it's 12 now and I lost the other 2 reasons.

This dude is openwolfing. I know I keep mentioning this, but this read has virtually no progression behind it (c4, go away) and seems to exist just for the sake of having a scumread. There's no play by discovery here. He hasn't shown any indication of getting to that read within the thread, he just randomly mentioned this out of the blue for the first time here and it largely looks like sheeping the incorrect thread consensus.

Meh, it doesn't matter, I'm just slightly salty despite not even being in the game until day 3, when I dunked on him after reading like 2 pages of his ISO. Get rekt LC.

like you're arguing i would've caught a bullet if my reads were right when me and alison had the same exact POE

What am I arguing sorry?

you made a sarcastic comment about me

I am just tilted by you blocking pushes by matter of factly stating people are town. I find it scummy by default.

She's defending her townreads, she does that all the time as town. She literally did that ALL throughout Anniversary game.

Tell me more about your Alexa read.

If I enter Final 3 with Alexa I snap vote the third person.

I'm that confident she's town.

I've made this read before, I've been right every time.

You don't have the right to steal my phrasing.

He keeps talking about alexa. Half of his ISO is a defense of alexa. I'm skipping over it mostly.

I'm mean I'm pretty sure you can add Wiml to Esooa's list because she's literally been pushing him since Day 1.

Nah its in their teammate range. Especially given Esooa was a little bit hedgey about it d1 and Wiml was never at actual risk.

Wasn't he a wagon at EOD?

The one you were on before you switched to Transcend after getting him on said wagon for some reason?

You have been exceedingly scummy today. What's that about?

Switching the subject when I point something that you did out?

do you want me to say something about the thing you say I did I have no memory of?

You were on Wiml, you told Transcend to self pres. Then he voted Wiml. Then you voted Transcend immediately after.

Don't act like you didn't do that.

I've just realized that my slot had like 700 posts yet LC failed to mention it once outside of that singular interaction with it and then calling it town for no reason. He's also doing something weird to Mac here, where he's kinda chainsawing him for getting Transcend to vote Wiml and then voting Transcend. He TMId my slot as town the whole game, lol.

[VOTE: wiml] aubergine

now I am trying to wagon you fren

transcend you have a chance to save yourself here.

Turtl can stay

This will show my true token of friendship

Bowing out to save a friend

If you are town and do this and he is a wolf I am gonna not in in any games with you again. Not hostile but I just don't vibe that.

Fine i'll self pres

TRANSCEND CHANGES HIS VOTE TO WIML HERE

[VOTE: transcend] aubergine

YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU DIDN'T DO THIS!?

I'm sorry but I don't see what point you're trying to prove.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS IS NOT SCUMMY OF HIM?

HE LITERALLY CHANGES LAST SECOND TO TRANSCEND AFTER TELLING TRANS TO SWITCH HIS VOTE!

WHAT WAS THAT????

Yeah.
Anyway.

Sorry I'm going to leave the thread for the night I think.

I appreciate everyone in this game a lot.

Yup take a breather, turtle. It's mafia, things get heated unfortunately.

Take care of yourself though.

Reminds me of the Wiggin stuff.
I know I said I wouldn't talk about this anymore, but.

LC.

What reads do you have not named Alexa

Townread you

Townread Esooa (Second strongest)

Townread Illario

Scumread Mac

Why do you townread me?

I literally can't remember why I just remember'd that I townread you and I don't think I'd vote you any time soon.

Lmao.

Alexa is town.

TSP is wolf.

This should be easy.

I'm driving to work now I'll be on sporadically.

No progression on calling TSP a wolf. Like, at all. He'd had no read on the slot for the entire game until then.
If TSP was thread consensus W at the time, this is another case of him following a thread consensus that was ~probably~ mistaken.

@EnderWiggin

Turbo games aren't exactly the games to go off of because they kinda suck.

If you want town meta, go through Shakespeare Maf (this game is a lot closer to that) or Reflections from the Mountaintop.

If you want maf meta, you already went through the 1 mafia game I won (I've lost the others ) and 18er is the other.


This game I've been pulled into defending Alexa incredibly hard, which believe it or not takes way too much energy out of me and I lose game state awareness.
Shakespeare were 3 hour days where I had to hard defend Alexa for like, the first 2 hours, then EOD, or at least the last 10 minutes, came and I'd be clueless on who to vote.

That's kinda the issue this game which I kinda need to learn from but yeah.

I kinda think LC is wolf. I'm not super confident because the Arts and Crafts did show he can play a decent wolf game, but from ALL of the other wolfgames including JOATED he doesn't show the same solvy approach I see in every one of his town games.

Also Arts and Crafts was a fluke win I didn't play that great of a game. Town ate itself alive starting with the CFD on a town when the wagon was on a maf member Day 1. I should not have won that.

I'm starting to see what Ender was talking about re: his push on LC being a good look for him. Judging by how LC's responding to it, I can see that.

Also, Ender's pointing out the exact problem with LC's ISO until this point. He's just not solving. And it's very obvious.

A lot of defending. He does a lot of defending later, defending against the Ender ISO that I probably shouldn't quote because this post is enormous already. The most important part is that he is super committed to defending himself. If it were a W/W push I feel like he wouldn't have the need to defend himself so much.

Plus you're noticing my reads are off, that's because my reads have BEEN off.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... IA-WINS%29

This game on my main my legacy reads at the end were "SPF AND CHELSEA TOWN" and hard shielded them.
SPF was town, Chelsea was maf.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... bed-a-Bank
This game I was on Mystery Player, my legacy reads were "SPF AND DUNYA TOWN" and hard shielded them, including me saying I'd bingewatch a show of Dunya's choosing if she was mafia.
SPF was town, Dunya was mafia and I'm watching Elite on Netflix now.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... f-the-Rift
This game my legacy reads and my hard shield was on Neopest and I was holding people at gunpoint to townread Katze .
NEO TOWN, KATZE MAF

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... Experiment
This (shitty) game I had both Alexa and Neo town as my legacy reads.
Alexa was town, Neo was maf.


You understand why I'm being so cautious about my reads right now? Any time I spout multiple legacy reads, I've been dead wrong on some of them.

I'm usually right on one player, but the second player I end up being totally wrong and I fuck the town over by hardshielding a wolf.

One example. There's a lot more around that time.
Now, put yourself in the mind of LC if Ender's his partner. He knows that Ender probably doesn't plan to bus him because the posts aren't a push, they are a mere analysis. He knows that Ender knows his alignment and this entire thing is fake. He knows that Ender can pivot away from LC and into a villager, that the push is likely just for show.

Therefore, LC shouldn't feel the need to defend himself from it so much if they were W/W. But he does. In fact, when it comes to volume in his posts, his highest-volume posts so far are the posts where he's defending himself against Ender. He cares about defending himself here. He has investment. He does not want to die.

Which should make Ender "just town."

Noting the complete lack of mentions of Nanook so far, and of TSP (aside from calling TSP a wolf for no reason, possibly based on thread consensus, and then not even pushing on him), throughout this day 2. ...And of Illario, actually.

@Lime Coke @ilario @alexa @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME @Wiml @EnderWiggin @TonyStarkPrime @Esooa

if there was one player in the game you would say is most likely town and one who is most likely mafia who would they be? plz tag me in reply.

@MacDougall

Most likely town: Alexa

Most likely Mafia: None of your business Nanook

What?
Where did the TSP wolfread go?
Where did the Mac wolfread go? He had this entire emotional post about why Mac was mafia and now he suddenly doesn't wolfread Mac? Mac's a flipped villager, but still.

The TSP wolfread was just for optics, it seems. And randomly calling Nanook mafia here is probably also for optics.

@Lime Coke ur shielding alexa hard, are you shield ilario with the same vigour?

Not Illario.

If there's anyone that's second highest townread to me it is Esooa but she hasn't had any pressure on her so I didn't need to shield.

He outright proves my earlier point here. He's not shielding illario because he wants illario as a misyeet option available later in the game. I feel confident about this. He's treating illario exactly how I'd expect a wolf to treat a villager who's not a viable push early on but might become one later in the game.

This just makes me more suspicious of Nanook and TSP at this point. The world they both pushed this SoD is a world of two villagers fmpov, and neither has clearing interactions with LC so far. Neither has anything on LC's part that spews them town, either. I feel better about TSP than about Nanook on a personal level because of our live interactions, but those don't make me confident enough by themselves.

I WILL PUT MY RESPONSES IN GIANT BOLD LETTERS TO MAKE THIS EASIER TO READ!!!

Maybe not 200 font, but the 150 seems to work.

LC ISO:

Spoiler: show

I actually don't have a single read yet.

His first non-fluff is saying he doesn't have reads.

Then:

Whose gonna be your hard-shield this game LC?

You're voting them.

When questioned he puts this up to start shielding Alexa.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't actually townread Alexa at the time. However you asked the question, I was answering seeing that if I ended up townreading Alexa, which I did about an hour later, I would've hard shielded her like I usually do.

But they were hedgy LC.

That's what's weird I don't really know what there is to hedge yet. Only thing is a townread on me from Mac before she stated that as far as I can see immediately.

Takes my joke super seriously. Sometimes it's a scumtell sometimes not.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the "Take jokes seriously is scummy" policy myself, so I get where you're coming from on this.

But in my response, I didn't think that was a joke post. When you responded with "It was a joke" that was why I responded with "I'm a fucking idiot" because I indeed felt like an idiot and I broke my own rule due to a misunderstanding.

Like, she hasn't really done anything that's her town game YET. If Alexa gets going she'll be obvious town.

Everything I do is my town game because I’m town

(I also agree I don’t think I’ve done anything AI yet if someone had a correct read on me it would be surprising or a crapshoot from numbers/probability odds)

Yes, and everyone that is townreading you that's not me has TMI.

I will then tunnel those individuals, and then complain about them once they flip town and take 0 blame.

Then proceed to lead town into an L.

I don’t think he would like not out a read on me/be hesitant to read me if he was wolfing here, to me it sounds like town who is worried I’m wolf/worried he won’t be able to find me since he worries I’m not as obvious town as the previous times I was town (and I can see him wanting to be able to catch me if I’m wolf too) so I feel his approach me makes sense as a villager

This actually kinda hits it on the head and I'm townreading you now because of that explanation.

Spoiler: show

You gotta flip wolf against me eventually, though.

LC is town, I agree.

If I'm wrong on this it'll be obvious by Day 3.

This is...fucking accurate and I've never actually said anything about this.

mac town

I can’t figure out how to multiquote from my phone but pretend I quoted this quote and also you calling wiml town and then Mac wolf

And my response is .... are you going to explain anything?

You have the quote button, then to the right of that is the 2 word bubbles, that is collects for multi-quote.

@alexa

Then this string, which doesn't do a lot.

Focuses on the Alexa read, then helps mech.

Nothing too important.

Then some more non-interactions like:

I'm town

Are you?

And then outs a basic ass townread on me like:

kind of gut townreading EnderWiggin

Agreeing with you. The "I'll find him by Day 3" post was actually kinda bad ass and towny.

Has some early townreads and interactions, also has a hard-shield player.

He then spends a majority of the next posts defending Alexa from various sussing, then susses Ilario hard.

Then Alison causes a bit of sus to come LC's direction and he fends it off okay.

Just saw that I rate a 7/10 on Alison's scum game quality eval.

Just noting here that I actually feel like I can do better than that. I will either improve or prove that I'm worth of at least a 9/10 some time in the future. /ego

Then a bunch more fluff including great snark at me.

Then:

I was eating popcorn.

Why does Nanook have a wagon?

Incidentally his first mention of Nanook all game.

A lot more fluff.

Okay but seriously.

Townreads:
Alexa
Esooa
Ender
Nanook
Illario (Sheeping Alexa)


That's all I have currently.

Then finally puts out a general townlist. This is fine.

Then plays HARD shield, which is normally a good look for LC.

THEN gets in a fight with Transcend.

THEN outs this reads list:

READLIIIIIIST:


Town:
Alexa
Esooa
Ender
Alison
Illario
Wiml
Mac
Nanook
TSP
Transcend
Maf:

The bottom 3 are more POE.

Which is just hilarious to me.

Then mostly fluff and directly joking with Alexa.

Hi. What is your solve?

Transcend is 1, and the other is either Nanook or maybe TSP?

I don't know the stuff with Mac. Is Mac capable of making that many team solves at once as mafia?

if wiml is town then esooa/Alison/ilario/transcend contain wolves with ilario/esooa or ilario/Alison or transcend/Alison being the team

if Alison is town its wiml/transcend with esooa as swing

if transcend is town it's just wiml/ilario

if ilario is town wiml is always a wolf

if esooa is town it's wiml/transcend with Alison as swing

I'm talking this type of post, is there a world where Mac makes this post as mafia?

Then moves to this Mac read, this is a little nuanced compared to previous stuff I remember from his wolf game.

Then more fluff and defense of Alexa.

Actually gives solid thoughts on why Alexa is town, but this is not outside LC wolf range.

D2 he actually asks a few questions while continuing with the Alexa shield.

Starts to press Mac hard. Most of the rest of his game is aggro on LC

THIS IS WHERE THE FUN STARTS.

Time to cross-reference.

IN JOATED:
Plays very similar. Outs strong townread and defends. Aggros on some people. Offers some townreads. Generally gets quieter as the game goes.

I actually reckon LC is in his scum range.

In the little town exposure, I've seen him make reads where he explains the reasoning for his decisions, as if showing off the way he's mentally arrived at this thought.

In this game he has only outed townreads, with the only one he's properly explained is his Alexa shield.

This is exactly the same as in JOATED where he only outed reasons for shielding Honey.

Interestingly, I actually think LC's current play is more scum!Indicative of him than town.

Turns out I can change my mind.

Okay, there wasn't much that I could actually respond to? This was mostly commentary. I DON'T know how to respond to commentary.

You say I fell off but I kinda do that as town too? Like Illario said, I start off strong, usually Day 1 I play really well, but by Day 3 or 4 I lose energy, motivation, and interest depending on how well the game is going.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/th ... f-the-Rift

Another town game I was on my alt Mystery Player, which is not a mystery anymore . I was strong all of Day 1, then Day 2 I hard defend Neo (NEO TOWN!) and go crazy with it (Again I'm trying to calm down), but my energy level went down further and further as the game went on because it was exhausting, and SaraC was annoying me.

I lose steam in games, this game specifically is draining me a bit. Like I said in games that I hard shield Alexa, or others, I end up losing game awareness and I forget most of my reads it's an awful ass habit.

I'll post this for now but I'm going to continue on, give me a few minutes.

To add to why I don’t like this post:

His initial reaction is “okay there isn’t much that I can actually respond to? I don’t know how to respond to commentary”

Why does he feel the need to be able to respond to anything? I feel like that’s more of a scum mindset, where you see a case against you and you need to try and disprove it. I feel like my first instinct if I were to see a case on me would be to determine if the case is coming in good or bad faith. I don’t feeel like LC does anything there to evaluate Enders push on him.

By the way, this is an extremely villagery post by illario, and also 100% correct. I'm back to thinking illario's just always a villager here. I also think he's correct in that it makes Ender look significantly better in hindsight.

brad what's your reads list right now?

Best to worst.

Alexaaaaaa
Esooa
Illario
Wiml
Mac
Ender
TSP
Nanook

LC continues to put TSP and Nanook close to the bottom of his readlists but never actually push them.

Like I have no idea what wolf!mac would gain by doing this rn

GET HIM!!!!

HE'S RIGHT THERE!!!!!

LOOK AT IT!!!!

Spoiler: show

LOOK AT HER! ❤

Spoiler: show

I miss her.

Blatantly encouraging a villager to vote a villager.
Illario's just town.

THIS IS A GIANT SCUMCASE OF NANOOK
-snip-

Snipped because this is absurdly long already. But this is by far the best look for Nanook and TSP. The fact he's calling the team Nanook and TSP here.
THAT SAID. He ended up dying that day, and it's not impossible he was already in antispew here. This is the only moment when he potentially spews Nanook and TSP town; his previous posts about them were all nothingburgers that didn't really point in the V direction for either of them. I can't say the same about illario or Ender; he's been consistently spewing illario and Ender town, although some of his posts about Ender early on looked partnery.

For that reason, I believe this isn't clearing for either of them. Especially since TSP and NANOOK both wanted to outright hammer LC. I feel like at least one of them wanted to do that on purpose so that he'd either stop spewing or that we'd get less time for discussion. I vocally requested time to read the game and stuff, but it was cut short by the hammer.

Considering all this, while the pushes from LC here are unquestionably a good look for TSP and NANOOK, I wouldn't say this isn't something that could be constructed in scumchat. Especially since his thread position here was already significantly worse than before, as far as I could tell. And also because TSP/NANOOK can't be wolves together, so realistically, even if LC did include a partner in there, he still had a contingency in the form of the villager he pushed here. He could just push the villager over the wolf and "re-evaluate" later if he wanted.

i feel like i've been playing this game like absolute fucking shit and a large part of me just wants out

You're playing fine <3

I think we're getting close to the actual solve. If we're confident in our townreads then we can easily corner mafia.

You're still 100% on Ilario right? I'm leaving it to you because you read him better.

uhhh i don't know. i think i am. i don't want to vote him right now

this thought process is villagery from you i think @.@

If you're more confident on Wiml being maf then I'll be fine with voting him out today, then. I'll trust your instincts on this one.

Notice how he pivots to my slot as soon as he has an excuse. He doesn't have nearly as much attachment to these Nanook/TSP wolfreads, and the Nanook case in particular, as he postures to have when he posts the case. That's why it isn't clearing.

I'm shifting at Vulgard though, Wiml had me townread at first.

Then Vulgard gets on and his shade on me is like...

1. "I find LC to be town, but in this game he's scummy"

2. LC asking what post cap is makes him scummy.

3. LC agrees often with what his top townread says.

I feel like the dude is seeing Ender's vote on me and is trying to take advantage by shading posts that aren't really anything.

This is outright bad faith regarding my slot, misconstruing my arguments at the time, but I did not get to respond to it because someone hammered him before I could.

Cos ur not even pushing him that much

I don't necessarily "push" on people. My idea is to "gather the troops" and 1 by 1 get people to vote out who I want voted out.

This was similar to how I won cop CC battles on EpicMafia. I would basically just ATE the entire player roster 1 by 1 to get them to vote out my CC.

I was somewhat doing the same here until Alexa stood her ground and spoke about wanting Wiml out instead, that's when I unvoted and spoke about my intentions of voting out Wiml.

Huh?? How did wiml get into this? Isn’t ur case on nanook??

Are you reading what's going on?

Yes I cased Nanook.

But when I tried to talk to Alexa about getting him, she told me she would rather get Wiml. So I decided "sure, why the fuck not?" since there's dead towns that scumread the slot before dying.

Proof that his Nanook case was completely for show. Written by LC himself.

I gotta get ready and drive to work.

[VOTE: Wulgard] aubergine

Incase I don't get back in time.

Can't even spell my nickname correctly.

@TonyStarkPrime do you have any reason why I think that nanook or ender would in particular want syn gone ?

The same question applies to @NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME and @EnderWiggin about tsp and each other

I dont understand your question

Wolfy post.

Spoiler: show

jk

Yeah, he totally believes NANOOK is mafia, I am so convinced.

Look, if you're going to scumread me, and if I somehow get misyeeted based off of your conf-bias. I need to do some sort of house cleaning before going.

First of all, @EnderWiggin if you're considering any scum between Alexa/Ilario, the scum is probably Ilario in that. Like I've told Mac, if I get into F3 with Alexa I'm snap voting the third person the moment the day starts. That's how confident I am with her being town.

Vulgard slot is most likely mafia with the way he started going after me when he realized he subbed into a slot that was getting a lot of heat. He saw you were tunneling me and he wants to feed off of it.

He really wants illario to die, doesn't he? But he's subtle about it. More points in illario's favor.

[EnderWiggin]

Nanook did keep putting LC in POE but didn't push it until my case.

That's not scummy though.

Actually tried to vote LC over Mac, but Mac was almost certainly going over.

Idk idk.

[Vulgard]

Conclusions:

- LC spews illario town and illario also looks like a villager independently. I see no reason to doubt my townread on the slot based on LC's ISO; if anything, it's even stronger now.
- I think LC's ISO clears Ender as well. LC's treatment of the slot felt partnery at first but then I wrapped around to thinking it was pockety instead, since it felt consistent with how he treated many other flipped villagers throughout the game. There's also the fact his defense against Ender's ISO of him felt significantly more invested, genuinely, than nearly anything else he did for the entire game. If Ender were a wolf ISOing his partner for optics, I'd expect LC to be less invested in defending himself against that.

- TSP and Nanook are not cleared whatsoever and I think the wolfcase on Nanook in particular was done purely for optics. After posting it in BIG TEXT, LC has no posts that prove he has any attachment to the case, no posts that show he actually wants to get Nanook killed, and the same thing goes for TSP. He didn't try to misyeet them if they were villagers. Instead, as soon as my slot's name was brought to the table, he was like "okay I can sheep you let's kill Wiml." This proves that 1. he didn't actually care about the push as much as he portrayed at first, and 2. he was okay with killing my slot when he objectively should've been pushing Nanook and TSP. His avoidance of going through with the Nanook/TSP push leads me to believe the last wolf is within that group.

- The other thing about TSP and Nanook is that aside from the wolfcase, there isn't actually anything that clears them in LC's ISO, while there is in the case of Ender and Illario (and me). The way he treats my slot, Ender's slot and illario's slot points to these three slots being town. He tried to pocket Ender on numerous occasions and got cold feet when ISOd by him. He only townread illario because he was sheeping the villager he whiteknighted (alexa), and left several hints that he might flip on illario later on - therefore, he was keeping illario around as a lategame misyeet option. If illario were LC's partner, LC could just townread him and call it a day, but that isn't what he did. He kept introducing conditionals to his illario read, which seems to me that he planned to push illario at some point, and that isn't how I'd expect him to treat a partner given his play this game. LC's ISO makes it obvious he was trying to deepwolf and not bus for credit, fmpov. And as for my slot, he tried to get my slot to push flipped villagers a couple of times, and was always okay with pushing it despite repping other wolfreads, and despite casing Nanook and TSP. He also had this moment early in the game where my slot was in the middle of his readlist but he called it strong town for absolutely no reason other than TMI.

[Vulgard]

The only player I could say LC has ever tried to get killed this game was Mac on day 2, and that's a flipped villager. Even then, he didn't commit to it extra hard, but at least there was some commitment. The NANOOK/TSP wolfcase had some commitment in it, but no commitment after it.

I'll read TSP and Nanook's ISOs later to see how they have played and how they have talked about LC, but from LC's ISO alone these two look the worst. One is a villager, though.

[Vulgard]

I also really hate the fact Nanook had the me/illario world during this SoD, when I think we actually look great from LC's ISO and that illario's independently super villagery. TSP supporting it isn't any better. I can't give them any excuses for it, either, because as people who've read the whole game they should know this.

[EnderWiggin]

Okay that's actually a good wall.

Nice.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

...I just called NANOOK "Banook."

I have no idea how that happened.

Not until they make me a mod

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Illario, Alexa, Esooa, and several others had LC at town.

I stepped in and pulled a wolf-case out of my ass.

It took me TWO DAYS to get them flipped.

Don't fucking say that it was "Easy wolf-pick"

The only other people that picked up on it were Alison early (N1 kill) and Transcend (D1 flip)

I had him for a bit

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Nanook's comfortability voting partners is my only question mark tbh. He has been more in town meta tho.

I mean, usually once I start bussing I just commit to the bus

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Alexa being nked makes it more likely ilario is town, not less

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Why doesn't w!Nanook NK me?

I've been one of his stronger tr, and going into EOD I just led a flip on his partner. People were mostly townreading me bar Wiml in thread.

Nanook WAS also townreading Alexa and that does remove the Ilario shield if that's the aim.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Why would any mafia not named ilario kill you lol

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I also really hate the fact Nanook had the me/illario world during this SoD, when I think we actually look great from LC's ISO and that illario's independently super villagery. TSP supporting it isn't any better. I can't give them any excuses for it, either, because as people who've read the whole game they should know this.

Bold of you to assume I've read the whole game


But yes you'll note that I realized ilario was/is probably town and swapped tsp into my poe instead, unprompted

[ilario]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Alexa being nked makes it more likely ilario is town, not less

the only thing the alexa nk implies is that i might be wrong to defend vulguard/wimls slot yesterday. that was the ONLY real difference between me and her on that day

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Alexa being nked makes it more likely ilario is town, not less

the only thing the alexa nk implies is that i might be wrong to defend vulguard/wimls slot yesterday. that was the ONLY real difference between me and her on that day

Fypov sure

For the rest of us it also increases the chance you're town

[ilario]

like if she and vul were tvt i dont see why maf just keeps her alive over me so they can argue

[ilario]

Illario is town.

I've put on my tinfoil and looked back thoroughly, but I don't think it's the case.

Reasons I had to tinfoil this:
Alexa dying to NK over me.

Alexa being nked makes it more likely ilario is town, not less

the only thing the alexa nk implies is that i might be wrong to defend vulguard/wimls slot yesterday. that was the ONLY real difference between me and her on that day

Fypov sure

For the rest of us it also increases the chance you're town

i mean u only need to look how lc treated my slot to know that. even in his case of YOU he spent half of it talking about ME. and how you were pushing my slot in bad faith. he used me as a frame of reference specifically to shade your slot, the entire bulk of the first half of his case rests on the assumption that im town.

honestly the worst part is when i was looking at interactions before lc got hammered i remember noting down that lc/tsp not teamed in my iso, i remember writing i think lc/nanook not teamed....and well ender was the one who buried lc....if im going by interactions it might just be vuldaddy but i really cant do this to him again.

[NANOOKTHEGREATANDFEARSOME]

I really need to do some rereading tonight

[ilario]

But I don’t want to believe winl was mafia. Because then that means, that on d2 the guy really did cross so many lines and for what?? Because he was being correctly fossed by myself and Alexa?? The dude went above and beyond in his emotional gaslighting throughout the game. like sure I can understand that from a town pov being mistreated. But if he’s maf then that means all that toxicity and unnecessary rudeness to us was because we were Reading him correctly??

Idk it’s just like a really sour taste in my mouth and like when I first met him he was like some nice sweet guy, probably the nicest of people I first met coming to the site. Idk how much of my townread on him is based on the fact that I just don’t want to accept he did all that shit as mafia just so we wouldn’t vote him or because he was frustrated at being correctly fossed and needed to vent his frustrations on us.

[ilario]

I don’t think I can objectively read that slot so I’m just gonna hope we win this today or I spew myself so hard town that I eat the NK and don’t have to worry about it

[TonyStarkPrime]

But I don’t want to believe winl was mafia. Because then that means, that on d2 the guy really did cross so many lines and for what?? Because he was being correctly fossed by myself and Alexa?? The dude went above and beyond in his emotional gaslighting throughout the game. like sure I can understand that from a town pov being mistreated. But if he’s maf then that means all that toxicity and unnecessary rudeness to us was because we were Reading him correctly??

Idk it’s just like a really sour taste in my mouth and like when I first met him he was like some nice sweet guy, probably the nicest of people I first met coming to the site. Idk how much of my townread on him is based on the fact that I just don’t want to accept he did all that shit as mafia just so we wouldn’t vote him or because he was frustrated at being correctly fossed and needed to vent his frustrations on us.

Tbh I agree

[TonyStarkPrime]

I also really hate the fact Nanook had the me/illario world during this SoD, when I think we actually look great from LC's ISO and that illario's independently super villagery. TSP supporting it isn't any better. I can't give them any excuses for it, either, because as people who've read the whole game they should know this.

My Poe rn is not that or anywhere near that

[TonyStarkPrime]

I think Ilario looks terrible from both the LC iso and independently though

[TonyStarkPrime]

The Vul wall is pretty bad though

[TonyStarkPrime]

My Poe might now be that