Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

#2301

DDL, I think that theory has merit. It could also explain what pinged me above about her lame rationale for voting.

linki - I would never have known invisible hands had anything to do with Adam Smith without you pointing it out.

#2302

Aw damn

well thanks for the game everyone! It was great to meet you all. And Gman dont ever stop singing haha

#2303

it does make sense that she was adam smith, but as far as i can tell she couldnt have been certain bass was scum. the op says "Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes" and "Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith". adam smith, whether it is or not tinybubbles's role, only hijacked the night 1 kill

#2304

sanmateo wrote:it does make sense that she was adam smith, but as far as i can tell she couldnt have been certain bass was scum. the op says "Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes" and "Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith". adam smith, whether it is or not tinybubbles's role, only hijacked the night 1 kill

He doesn't have to be Keynes. He could be Marx, who has the ability of destroying/redistributing people's items. Or even Robert Solow who can boost his items (though I'm not sure if Adam Smith would be allowed to control that one since it seems to be kind of a passive ability). If she got to use one of their abilities, she'd know they are mafia.

#2305

One more thing, does mafia usually get to know the role of the one they killed in this forum? Might be relevant.

#2306

One thing that I thought was all assumed the first time around when you talked about Adam Smith and I never saw a clarification, but we could get one from the hosts, is this:

Hosts, does Adam Smith target a player or an ability.

At the time that convo was happening I wanted to say in the thread that I thought you were all making an assumption about the way AS's role worked, but DDL's theory actually makes perfect sense and lines up well with his interpretation of the role in a logical way. But also, that theory means that AS was effectively a role check which you already have in Akerman. The more clarity, the better.

DDL, no. Sometimes, you will see specific mafia roles that have the ability to check the role of a dead person, but it is not usually an inherent part of the set up.

#2307

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
sanmateo wrote:it does make sense that she was adam smith, but as far as i can tell she couldnt have been certain bass was scum. the op says "Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes" and "Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith". adam smith, whether it is or not tinybubbles's role, only hijacked the night 1 kill
He doesn't have to be Keynes. He could be Marx, who has the ability of destroying/redistributing people's items. Or even Robert Solow who can boost his items (though I'm not sure if Adam Smith would be allowed to control that one since it seems to be kind of a passive ability). If she got to use one of their abilities, she'd know they are mafia.

this train of thought does depend a lot on whether the mods would prompt her at the end of the night, i'm not ok with lynching bass based exclusively on this

#2308

Akerlof, sorry.

#2309

Golden wrote: Hosts, does Adam Smith target a player or an ability.

No.

#2310

sanmateo wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
sanmateo wrote:it does make sense that she was adam smith, but as far as i can tell she couldnt have been certain bass was scum. the op says "Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes" and "Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith". adam smith, whether it is or not tinybubbles's role, only hijacked the night 1 kill
He doesn't have to be Keynes. He could be Marx, who has the ability of destroying/redistributing people's items. Or even Robert Solow who can boost his items (though I'm not sure if Adam Smith would be allowed to control that one since it seems to be kind of a passive ability). If she got to use one of their abilities, she'd know they are mafia.
this train of thought does depend a lot on whether the mods would prompt her at the end of the night, i'm not ok with lynching bass based exclusively on this

Well if she targets a player, she will have to receive some kind of information. Because some of those abilities target one player, some target two, and some are passive abilities that target one. For example, if Adam Smith targetted Marx, he'd have to pick between using one of Marx's abilities, then choosing one or two players depending on what they picked. That'd give him some information.

But I agree with Golden when he says that'd make AS effectively a role cop, and that is weird in terms of game balance. I wanna see what other people think.

#2311

Hmm. Is the power allocated to Adam Smith randomly?

#2312

No, this is better, answer this one instead.

Does Adam Smith know whose power he is using each night?

#2313

Golden wrote:No, this is better, answer this one instead.

Does Adam Smith know whose power he is using each night?

Yeah that's pretty much the million dollar question.

#2314

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
sanmateo wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
sanmateo wrote:it does make sense that she was adam smith, but as far as i can tell she couldnt have been certain bass was scum. the op says "Sloonei - Killed Night 2 by John Maynard Keynes" and "Epignosis - Killed Night 1 by Adam Smith". adam smith, whether it is or not tinybubbles's role, only hijacked the night 1 kill
He doesn't have to be Keynes. He could be Marx, who has the ability of destroying/redistributing people's items. Or even Robert Solow who can boost his items (though I'm not sure if Adam Smith would be allowed to control that one since it seems to be kind of a passive ability). If she got to use one of their abilities, she'd know they are mafia.
this train of thought does depend a lot on whether the mods would prompt her at the end of the night, i'm not ok with lynching bass based exclusively on this
Well if she targets a player, she will have to receive some kind of information. Because some of those abilities target one player, some target two, and some are passive abilities that target one. For example, if Adam Smith targetted Marx, he'd have to pick between using one of Marx's abilities, then choosing one or two players depending on what they picked. That'd give him some information.

But I agree with Golden when he says that'd make AS effectively a role cop, and that is weird in terms of game balance. I wanna see what other people think.

i assumed adam smith was a standard redirector, as in s/he chose a player and changes their target from what they'd chosen. we cant know exactly if the mods would inform AS if the action was succesufl. you do see how you are reaching, right? if you think we should lynch bass you should find things to be suspicious of in bass's posts tbh

#2315

thellama73 wrote:
Golden wrote: Hosts, does Adam Smith target a player or an ability.

No.

and as u all can see the mods wont really clarify whats up with that, so..

#2316

RIP Bubbles, thanks for playing with us.

hope to play again, and you're certainly welcome to join us on RYM too if you ever care to.

my immediate reaction to the current discussion re: Adam Smith is that it is too reliant upon the unknown to serve as the primary basis for a lynch. but i welcome the conversation. moreover i like that DDL is approaching the phase this way; it evidences a genuine town-oriented operation he was employing and his post history seems to bear it out.

#2317

Golden wrote:No, this is better, answer this one instead.

Does Adam Smith know whose power he is using each night?

#2318

sanmateo wrote: i assumed adam smith was a standard redirector, as in s/he chose a player and changes their target from what they'd chosen. we cant know exactly if the mods would inform AS if the action was succesufl. you do see how you are reaching, right? if you think we should lynch bass you should find things to be suspicious of in bass's posts tbh

Hmm... I was seeing him as a pupeteer. I've once a had a role that once per night was given complete control over the target's abilities, including learning their role. But it was a mafia role, so it was less OP in the sense of information gathering.

Yeah I know I'm reaching a little. And the host's first answer doesn't really help my case. But I don't think my theory has been completely shot down, and Bass has shown some suspicious behavior since the start of the game. I was pretty neutral on him in Night 3 (I think his posts look honest, but his votes don't). Now I'm leaning mafia.

#2319

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
sanmateo wrote:
Bass_the_Clever wrote:Im going to go ahead a vote BR I think she is bad news.
of the people who voted for br, bass is the only one who i think could be scum, only because he does the "yeah good points *votes*"
what significance do you think there is in the fact that Bass's vote broke a 3-3 tie with aether to give BR the lead?

jay brought this up when i mentioned something similar, i think bass looks decent enough

#2320

when i try to compile potential scum teams, Roxy appears in essentially all of them at this point.

#2321

question to everyone: how did you personally feel about splints' passionate outbursts during Night 3? MP seemingly has reversed his perspective which surprises me. i pose this question to everybody regardless of how much experience you have playing with her.

my initial reaction was to trust her less after encountering her loud frustration. is there a reason i should reconsider?

#2322

I was seeing him as someone who could pick the power not the player, and then choose who to target with that power. I think Epi dying would be consistent with that, which is partly why I thought that way (especially if bubbles was being genuine about trusting my instincts).

@jjj - I don't have the best history of reading splints, but for me her outburst didn't make me see her as 'more civilian'. I think she has a tendency to become frustrated when suspected whether good or bad - especially if she feels the reasons for suspicion aren't fair ones. Actually before that outburst my eye wasn't on her, but what caught my eye more in the whole exchange was where she had Roxy in the piece and how supportive of Roxy she was being, more than her tone of frustration towards MP.

#2323

Rest in peace Bubbles

I too had an inkling that you might be Adam.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:question to everyone: how did you personally feel about splints' passionate outbursts during Night 3? MP seemingly has reversed his perspective which surprises me. i pose this question to everybody regardless of how much experience you have playing with her.

my initial reaction was to trust her less after encountering her loud frustration. is there a reason i should reconsider?

I had much the same reaction to splintsy as MP did, though I was on the fence with her in the first place. She seems genuine to me, though I think it's worrisome that she doesn't see how her vote for aether over BR could look sketchy, given how things turned out.

I agree with you about Roxy. I think she's our best bet to find a baddie today.

#2324

i think we have a good opportunity now to bring our full reads spectrums together as a group, because if there's enough overlap then process of elimination will be a very reasonable objective.

#2325

JJ, could you repeat that in words I understand?

Do you mean, lets post our rainbows and compare them?

#2326

Golden wrote:JJ, could you repeat that in words I understand?

Do you mean, lets post our rainbows and compare them?

essentially yes. they don't have to be rainbows though.

#2327

I can't believe I'm converting to this way of thinking. I did it in Omerta mafia and I'm ashamed to say I liked doing it a little.

Very suspicious

Roxy
Splints
Aether

Quite suspicious

TH

A little suspicious

MP
DDL

No read

Vompatti
Bass

Feel good about

Sanmateo

Feel strongly townie about

JJJ
GMan
Golden

#2328

That purple really didn't work. It's GMan, JJJ, me.

#2329

you're the first person to actually do a correct color scheme for a rainbow.

#2330

That was bugging me so much that it was part of the reason I actually did one in Omerta lol.

I'm a little OCD like that. You have no idea how much it has been bugging me that people keep referring to their things as rainbows.

#2331

By the way guys, I've just reviewed my calendar and, umm...

It's my anniversary this weekend.
Tuesday is my church's first meeting to discuss getting a new pastor
And I'm preaching the sunday after that and haven't started writing it yet
And I've undertaken to put in three long sessions to help my niece study for her law exam on June 12

I probably should have taken note of that stuff before I agreed to sub in, but never mind. Just flagging it now because all of these are things that it is actually very important that I put before mafia in the next two weeks or so. I still do promise to keep up and fully participate (I can't not!!) but I ask you to please be aware of this if I'm not as vocal as usual.

#2332

Russtifinko wrote:The group was overjoyed with yesterday's result, and so they threw a party! They stood about in small groups, listening to raps about economics and pontificating some more. There was even music! The group was treated to some delightful warbling courtesy of MP and G-Man. MP's performance got a smattering of applause, but the crowd erupted into cheers when G-Man left the stage, and he was clapped heartily upon the back and offered free "imported sodas" for his trouble.

#2333

most likely to be town
G-Man
sanmateo
MovingPictures07
Bass_the_Clever

swing players upon whom the game will likely be decided
Turnip Head
birdwithteeth11/Golden

if he's mafia it is going to be a problem
Vompatti

strong defenses, but the case against is ever-growing
Dragon D. Luffy

most likely to yield a mafia flip if lynched
acrosstheaether
fingersplints
Roxy

i do think good points have been made against the notion of aether and splints being team mates. if true, a baddie is definitely lurking around somewhere in a more friendly color.

#2334

Golden, could you describe in either briefly or verbosely what concerns you about Turnip?

#2335

btw, i DO use blue in my rainbows... but only for confirmed townies. which nobody in this game will ever be.

#2336

#2337

I definitely agree on vomps too, I mean I have to put him in the 'no read' category, but where else can you put him?

linki - TH - frankly I still don't like that he created a lynch train on me on day one, and I don't think his vote on BR is as unlikely for a baddie as some (read: all) of the others. In the section in between when I died and Sloonei died, I really don't have any recollection of what TH contributed to the thread, he is one person I need to read back on in that regard. The TH going after Roxy is much closer to my perception of civ TH then the one I saw before I died.

#2338

Sorry I wasn't able to elaborate more, I'm even breaking into essay time now to be here for a few minutes. I just wanted to express that over the past few hours I thought about it and reexamined splints and particularly her responses late in N3 convinced me I am incorrectly tunneling her.

This response most notably:

fingersplints wrote:Fucking lynch me and then MP next. This isn't worth my time. I'm not unhappy at all with how I played MP and I disagree with all of your last post as I have with all your posts this game. This game has clearly been posting=good since the beginning.
I'm actually quite happy with how I played. I was right and BR was bad, and when I am gone the town will be able to refocus past this and lynch an actual baddie in MP

I just got the sense of conviction that this is genuine and NOT forced. If she were a mafia, anyway, she wouldn't advocate that we lynch her first, and I felt that she really meant it here.

#2339

G-Man wrote:
Spoiler: show

Then the name Adam Smith would've probably been mentioned in the write-up, like what happened when Epi was killed.

#2340

#2341

MovingPictures07 wrote:I just got the sense of conviction that this is genuine and NOT forced. If she were a mafia, anyway, she wouldn't advocate that we lynch her first, and I felt that she really meant it here.

understandable perspective, even if a bit WIFOM. you know splints better than i do. if anyone disagrees with MP's assertion here who does know splints well, please speak up.

if you remove splints from your suspect pool though, who is left there for the moment?

#2342

So having reevaluated my reads, here's my updated Rainbow

DDL
sanmateo

Bass
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden 2.0
JJJ
Vompatti

aether

Turnip

Roxy

#2343

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I just got the sense of conviction that this is genuine and NOT forced. If she were a mafia, anyway, she wouldn't advocate that we lynch her first, and I felt that she really meant it here.
understandable perspective, even if a bit WIFOM. you know splints better than i do. if anyone disagrees with MP's assertion here who does know splints well, please speak up.

if you remove splints from your suspect pool though, who is left there for the moment?

Yeah, it is WIFOMy, but one thing I noted too was Rox's fueling the flames of me v. splints here:

Roxy wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:Not here for long.

A Rox/Splints team isn't out of the question, but all I know is that splints needs to be lynched tomorrow. She's been caught red-handed.

No, I do NOT want to do another song. I've been embarrassed enough as is. Though I appreciate your enthusiasm, G-Man. :P

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: and i am sure other people will perceive this content differently to me, so let's talk about it. i understand 75% of the people will see the massive posts and roll their eyes though.
Know this feel.
Explain please. You keep saying that splints is bad but have provided no reasoning and now I am bad with her on team bc she called out a mafia day 1 got hounded for tunneling then when makes a great case on ATE and follows through with a vote and br is lynched and since she did not vote br that day she is a baddie teammie with her and bc I defended splints I am bad?

You must really think I am a shitty player to be so obv with a teamie.

Golden - robustly huh? then why did players say I should have defended you more strongly to help sway your lynch? funny you say robust but others thought I did very little.

Can you quote where I robustly defended you prior to your lynch?

Which seems to me that perhaps a mafia Rox was capitalizing on a civilian v. civilian catfight.

#2344

that's a very surprising position for DDL, MP. what makes him your top town read at this point?

#2345

Notice too that Rox defended Golden 1.0 hard and she's defended splints hard before. I think it's because she KNOWS they're civilians.

As to other non-Roxy suspects, I'm not really sure where to go from there, but you can see my Rainbow list above.

What I'm afraid of is one of my green or higher is mafia, and I'm actually starting to wonder if it's Jay. I know, I know, you have the rep and as such I've been hesitant to trust but also hesitant to NOT trust you based on it, but...

#2346

G-Man wrote:
Spoiler: show

Nope. I think the invisible hand thing is just a coincidence. Hosts usually don't give hints like that.

#2347

MovingPictures07 wrote:Notice too that Rox defended Golden 1.0 hard and she's defended splints hard before. I think it's because she KNOWS they're civilians.

Roxy also defended Bubbles hard on Day 2. valid points.

MovingPictures07 wrote:What I'm afraid of is one of my green or higher is mafia, and I'm actually starting to wonder if it's Jay. I know, I know, you have the rep and as such I've been hesitant to trust but also hesitant to NOT trust you based on it, but...

it's your civic duty to at least hear the voices in your head telling you i might be no good.

but of course i encourage you to qualify those concerns with actual content. if i am to be perceived as suspicious to whatever degree, that suspicion should stem from something i've actually said or done in the game instead of "JJJ is JJJ".

#2348

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:that's a very surprising position for DDL, MP. what makes him your top town read at this point?

I think he's the real deal.

Of course, since I know no one's alignment with certainty, my lists are subject to change, but it's really just that I'm starting to question the green reads more, and I can't ever see questioning the blue reads much at all at the moment. Trying to trust my gut at the moment and seeing where it gets me, since I feel like I just got lucky with Elo and my casing on splints was too narrow-minded.

#2349

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
G-Man wrote:
Spoiler: show
Nope. I think the invisible hand thing is just a coincidence. Hosts usually don't give hints like that.

#2350

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:What I'm afraid of is one of my green or higher is mafia, and I'm actually starting to wonder if it's Jay. I know, I know, you have the rep and as such I've been hesitant to trust but also hesitant to NOT trust you based on it, but...
it's your civic duty to at least hear the voices in your head telling you i might be no good.

but of course i encourage you to qualify those concerns with actual content. if i am to be perceived as suspicious to whatever degree, that suspicion should stem from something i've actually said or done in the game instead of "JJJ is JJJ".

Yeah, that's why I haven't really voiced any suspicion of you since there isn't much there, but I just have had more voices bugging me lately. :P

Who killed our talkative teddy??