Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[S~V~S]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

I do agree with you re civs winning dead or alive. I think no fear of death makes for more aggressive civs rather than blendy civs. When I host everyone has win with your team, dead or alive, except LMS roles.

[Tangrowth]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

I do agree with you re civs winning dead or alive. I think no fear of death makes for more aggressive civs rather than blendy civs. When I host everyone has win with your team, dead or alive, except LMS roles.

I agree with this as well. Henceforth I'm going to be hosting my games either straight-up faction win (regardless of dead/alive) or make it an altered form. Like in Death Note where the win con was dead/alive but the mafia had additional win conditions, or in my upcoming RUSH game where you earn coins, but your team winning doesn't give you enough coins on its own so you have to win various individual role win cons (which are smaller) and accrue enough coins to win.

I will admit I love different perspectives at The Syndicate though. For example, Epi obviously disagrees with my view on dead/alive and Russ is more hardass than I am on info dumping (I say this with complete respect and friendlove), but I still play their games, and I still love the shit out of them.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

And like Epi, I have a very nuanced and layered view of the disco role issues. It boils down to I don't think it's sporting to ruin the baddies game. They work hard, and through no fault of their own, they get outed and lynched. When baddies go down (die, baddies, die!) it should be because they screwed up, not because someone got a PM from the host.

The lady said it better than the gent.

To go ahead and add the nuances I was referring to myself: If you allow civilians to win whether dead or alive, and its an open setup, then there is no reason for the info role to refrain from sharing everything.

And that makes for boring.

If you make civilians have to be careful because they don't win if dead, it makes the info role more careful in his function.

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

I do agree with you re civs winning dead or alive. I think no fear of death makes for more aggressive civs rather than blendy civs. When I host everyone has win with your team, dead or alive, except LMS roles.

That's another thing I'd never heard of until I started playing here.

You guys surely have a very distinct mafia culture. It's like you're an island or something. :P

In my site, direct role revealing is usually not allowed (to avoid those horrible mass-claim scenarios), but role dumping of any kind is fair game. But the games there are so full of abilities that information could come from literally anywhere, so a good mafioso can WIFOM their way out of most situations.

I've come to realize that cops become somewhat weaker the more role madness a game is. It's in the generic ones that they are the most powerful.

[Epignosis]

I don't have a hard stance on civilians being alive to win. In Masters of the Universe, the entire civilian faction won because Flyin' High won.

Since then, I've been meticulous about whether civilians should win as a group or not. It always depends on the roles and powers.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Make info rare. That's the obvious answer.

I agree with this.

But sometimes it's hard to do that when you're trying to make 30 roles with 2-3 abilities each and you need ideas.

[Tangrowth]

I don't have a hard stance on civilians being alive to win. In Masters of the Universe, the entire civilian faction won because Flyin' High won.

Since then, I've been meticulous about whether civilians should win as a group or not. It always depends on the roles and powers.

Ah, that's true, I just know you tend to be opinionated about it anymore and you haven't had a game where entire factions have won ever since (right? correct me if I'm wrong).

[Epignosis]

When you have an open setup with a large number of detailed, thematic roles, you can't have info dumping. And if you do, Mafia should be able to quickly snuff it out, and the dumper shouldn't win for doing it and getting killed.

That's the "dirty version" of my perspective.

Closed vanilla games? Knock yourselves out with the info and claims. It works there.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Well for all it's worth, almost every game in my site is closed setup.

[Golden]

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

It can have that nasty side effect if that's how players play it. But playing a game differently or more quietly does not necessarily equal not playing it to its fullest. I very much enjoy being a civilian and trying to get the town a win WHILE trying to win, and I don't think my civilian reputation has ever suffered any knocks for how I go about achieving that.

Each setting has it's own impact on balance. Epi's point is correct in that being able to win or lose if you are alive has an impact on balance, one that has to be taken into account when designing.

What I enjoy about this kind of open set up is the variance it creates.

PS - I agree with you on creating info that is merely a suggestion. My West Wing game had a mafia role that could make others appear mafia if checked. My Pixar game, an info role got some correct and some poor info each day (and even then the info was ambiguous - for instance one true piece of information was that 'X is a monster' - which they literally were (Sully from Monsters inc) but they weren't mafia).

I think the best outcome for info roles is to balance them with counter-info roles. This means that someone with info has to consider that info in the context of the thread to decide if they believe it or not.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I see your point, but that comes with the nasty side effect of making players unwilling to play the game to the fullest, imo. Because a player who does not try hard would have a better chance at winning than one who does. JJJ would never win a game in this format, for example.

It can have that nasty side effect if that's how players play it. But playing a game differently or more quietly does not necessarily equal not playing it to its fullest. I very much enjoy being a civilian and trying to get the town a win WHILE trying to win, and I don't think my civilian reputation has ever suffered any knocks for how I go about achieving that.

Well I this isn't the first time you say this to me so I'll give it the benefit of doubt. I'll play at least one game like that so I can decide my opinion on it.

[Golden]

Part of the trick is definitely to be ok losing and to be more invested in the town winning than yourself.

Part of it is to keep your cards held closer to your chest. If dead civs couldn't win this game, MP and TH might have kept their cards closer, I might not have been on to them and killed them, and the town might have won as a result. The game isn't necessarily balanced more in favour of the mafia by having dead civs lose (although I do think you should assume it is in favour of the mafia if dead mafia CAN win). I personally quite like games where deadies on neither side win. I've seen some epic meltdowns from baddie teams when bussing went on and deadies couldn't win.

[Russtifinko]

One thing I don't understand is why implementing a cop is you are so vehemently against allowing the cop to use that information. Sure, not allowing role reveals is one thing, but wanting to modkill a player because he switched his reads too fast?

It gets too subjective for my tastes. What exactly is considered a cop "dumping information" and a cop "not dumping information"? Is he supposed to keep his apparent reads unchanged so there is no chance people will notice he is a cop? Or was he supposed to quote a few random posts from splints and pretend there was evidence for her being a townie in them?

At this point I'd rather stop implementing info roles in the games altogether, if I were you. Better than enforcing a very subjective set of roles to nerf the cop.

Sorry for the criticism, but this is just an aspect of this site that baffles me.

Well, the distinction I would make is that cops are supposed to use their info; their teammates generally aren't supposed to share in that benefit. Really that just comes down to a game balancing question. I have no doubt that if you made a cop role that was allowed to share it's info, you'd "nerf" the civvie team in other ways. So I think the end effect of the differing rules would be minimal.

As MP mentioned, I take an extremely negative stance on info dumping of any type because I have seen it ruin games over and over. It simply takes all the fun, and all of the mafia, out of mafia for me. And I have definitely seen info dumping absolutely wreck games even when it wasn't an explicit outing per se. Someone changing stance radically just as dawn breaks is a fairly established tell on this site for "I have info", which is why I considered coming down on it hard. To answer your questions about alternatives, yes, your suggestions for handling info were what I would consider the "right" way to play it within my rules. Pretend that you're believing a player's defense if you've found out they're civ and being suspected, or find something, however small, in their posts that incriminates them if you've found they're bad. Even just say that they read as genuine/not genuine to you and say that you might be changing your mind on them, and take a post or two exchanged with them to come around.

I find games with some amount of info in them to be more exciting, so I'll keep including info roles in my games. Will I have another unmitigated straight-up nightly role check? Probably not, for some of the reasons you discussed above. But imo TH played a perfect info role game: he managed to help the civs lynch baddies without ever implying that he had info. Sure, a few people seem to have cottoned on to his role, but figuring out roles is half the fun of mafia. And to me the essential point is that they figured it out more because he was on a hot streak with his reads than because of anything he said. So, in true mafia style, they figured it out for themselves instead of having it waved in their faces.

As for subjectiveness, I don't think you found that in this game to a greater extent than any other game that has rules of any type. Sure, I had a strict stance. Say what you want otherwise, but I made my stance abundantly clear in the pregame rules. It says that you're breaking the rule by even implying that you have info, real or fake. If you break that you're risking a modkill; pretty clear-cut. But there's subjectivity in enforcement of any rule, in or out of mafia. For example, BTSC is prohibited unless expressly granted in most games. Is a player reminding a friend that the game has started and they need to post a violation of that? They're not talking in thread. And what about rules against being an asshat? That's a HUGE issue in mafia, and it's probably the most subjective rule of all. There's tons of factor to consider, like is a player being mean-spirited, trying to get a reaction in order to make a voting decision, or simply getting into the persona of a role? Are they joking around and forgot to use sarcastic orange, or are they seriously putting someone down? There's no way for a mod to decide how they will rule on a case like that before the game starts.

I appreciate your advice on "more elegant" solutions to the info role conundrum. My advice to you is this: Yes, The Syndicate isn't like every other mafia site you've played at, and that's probably a good thing. Not to say there is even the slightest thing wrong with any site you've been at, but a diversity of styles and cultures means this game can appeal to a broader range of people. And I say the more the merrier. So please, feel welcome, give it a try, and see what you think of our flavor of the game. Definitely share ideas from other places, too, because taking a little of the best from everywhere is a great way to improve mafia here. If, after a few game, you've found that you don't enjoy the games being offered or don't agree with the rules set, stop playing. We'll be sad to see you go, but we understand that you should play mafia that gives you joy, not makes you frustrated or stressed.

[Russtifinko]

I almost refused to do the singing contest because I felt really embarrassed about it. Then I thought I probably would just try to loosen up and do it anyway, but forgot about it amid my busy schedule and in dogpeeing in the thread, actually, until Llama reminded me.

I think that Russ and Llama would have been disappointed and I would have lost by default, since I did ask them if I could just upload a partial video (like 10 seconds), but I think that's it. Either of them can correct me though, since I'm not entirely sure.

My punishment for losing was that I couldn't produce or sell for the Night.

This is exactly correct.

I loved the idea of the singing contest and made the video but I had the video set to private at first. I sent the link to our hosts hoping they could view it because they had the direct link. A few hours after the deadline, I saw that I had been notified that the video wouldn't play for them. I think they gave us both an extra 24 hours to get the videos in.



The hardest part for me was choosing a song to sing. I wasn't sure if I should be serious or silly. Here's the shortlist I came up with:

"Under Pressure" by Queen and David Bowie (my ultimate choice because it had me going all over the place vocally and I LOVE this song)

"The Greatest Man That Ever Lived" by Weezer (I joked in LMS3 that this was my theme song- I actually sing it on my way to work everyday as a pick-me-up)

"Edelweiss" from The Sound of Music (gorgeous song and it's safe for my low range but I didn't want people to think I was claiming or hinting at being Menger)

"I Believe in a Thing Called Love" by The Darkness (I would have gotten too into this one and I realized that I didn't want any videos of me gyrating and thrusting on the internet)

"Summer" from Frozen (because who doesn't love Olaf?)

"It's Not Unusual" by Tom Jones (scrapped it because I didn't have enough time to choreograph my own version of The Carlton dance)

This setlist makes me so happy.

[thellama73]

Regarding infodumping, I used to be more tightfisted about it, but Epignosis pointed out to me (and experience proved him right) that civilians who infodump usually don't last long. They create their own punishment, which I prefer to having to hand donw punishments as a host.

Rehgarding dead civs winning, I don't know, I just don't like the idea of having 25 winners in every game the civilians win. It cheapens the win, in my view, to have the entire faction receive it. With smaller teams, it's less of a problem

[Marmot]

Who's idea was it to kill me on Night 1 and why?

I like to know these things.

[Tangrowth]

Congrats on 6,000 posts, MM!

[Tangrowth]

Oh, seems I missed Golden's 1,000 too. Happy belated 1,000 posts, Golden!

I like numbers.

[Marmot]

Congrats on 6,000 posts, MM!

Oh dang, I didn't even notice.

Muchas gracias!

[Bass_the_Clever]

Well played Golden, you did a great job.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Russ. I see your point. I just don't like the ideas of players acting like they don't know something they do, because it makes it feel unnatural. I like things to be more clear cut.

But don't worry, I'm not quitting this site because of this. Your game was awesome in ways no other games I've ever played were, and your ruleset does have advantages which I can't ignore, so it can make things fresh. I've never played a mafia game where I thought everything about it was perfect. Not even the games I hosted were like that. Every host has their own quirks that can make a game better or worse for each player depending on their tastes.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I agree with your point about cops breaking games though. I actually stopped playing mafia on a certain place because I got tired of cops soloing the games every time. It's a lot easier for a game to be ruined by excess of information than by the lack of it.

I just differ on the idea of how to tackle the problem. But like I said, I'm open to experience new games from different mods. And yes, I'd play another game hosted by you.

[Marmot]

I don't know if Russti is hosting again anytime soon, but llama's Frisky Dingbat Mafia is the next full game in the queue.

[thellama73]

I don't know if Russti is hosting again anytime soon, but llama's Frisky Dingbat Mafia is the next full game in the queue.

That's true, and I think it will be a fun one!

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Where is that queue?

[Tangrowth]

Where is that queue?

Here it is!

[Marmot]

Where is that queue?

After the P.

[S~V~S]

We're at the end of the queue. We are voting on the next one.

[Marmot]

Whose idea was it to kill me on Night 1 and why?

[fingersplints]

Probably how you were on to Bass

[Bass_the_Clever]

Whose idea was it to kill me on Night 1 and why?

It wasn't my idea. I think it was Roxy only because you weren't tossing any of our names around really. I wanted JJJ or DDL or MP gone night one because they were posting a ton. lol

[Tangrowth]

Whose idea was it to kill me on Night 1 and why?

It wasn't my idea. I think it was Roxy only because you weren't tossing any of our names around really. I wanted JJJ or DDL or MP gone night one because they were posting a ton. lol

I'll remember this.

[Sloonei]

Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game

[Tangrowth]

Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game

Agreed, I'm also curious what the thinking was on pre-Golden 2.0-NKs.

[Bass_the_Clever]

Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game

You kept bringing my name up.

[Golden]

Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game

On night 4 I chose bacon and eggs for breakfast. It seemed like a good idea, because I knew I was going to NK MP, and I couldn't figure out if he was hogging the thread or if he was playing chicken with me.

[Sloonei]

Why me Night 2? basically you all have to explain every decision you made all game

You kept bringing my name up.

glad it was for that reason
I played much more aggressive than is usual for me this game. I usually wait until day 3 or 4 to go hard but I figured I'd get newbie examption from nightkills for a while, and then I also realized I wouldn't be able to play much for most of thr game anyway, so I went even harderer at that point.

[Marmot]

Probably how you were on to Bass

Perhaps you were right. Bass definitely interacted differently with me this game than I had ever noticed before. I wonder if I would have pursued that later on.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

next time please kill me faster so i don't have to sustain this meta for 7 days

cool thanks

[Golden]

next time please kill me faster so i don't have to sustain this meta for 7 days

cool thanks

Lol... it was quite a feat, I have to say.

JJ, sign up for Bullets over Broadway, and vote in the poll!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i'd like to but i really shouldn't. after the current RYM game i am going to take a short mafia break until the champs game finale. i am going to need to be fully prepared for that mentally, and any threat of burnout must be avoided. i fully expect to have over 1,000 posts in that game if i live long enough.

but i'll definitely play another game with y'all here soon. it's a lovely community.

[Golden]

Well, that doesn't exclude you voting in the poll. I certainly understand a brain break before the championship finals.

[Golden]

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66

That one, I mean!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

ah shit lol, i voted in the musicals one. hopefully that doesn't mean i signed up. better address that.

[Golden]

Yeah, you'll want to vote no or maybe in that one lol.

[Tangrowth]

And NOW I can finally say that I knew Balaam was G-Man and that's why I mainly thought he was faking the pictures in Economics because I saw civilian G-Man in full action here and he was SO DIFFERENT in Economics.

[G-Man]

Yes, my level of involvement in Biblical Mafia was almost 100% the reason I chose to post in pictures in this game. Had this been a normal speed game like I remember from years ago, we would have all dialed this one in and I could have kept pace in Biblical. But no, you guys had to go and post like crazy here! :P I really was drowning in posts and I latched onto that picture curse notion and chose to stick with it all game. My content contribution increased in this game after I died in Biblical.

Also, I can now reveal that, sadly, I am the reason we had the reset of roles. I was originally going to be Marx in this game but I got my chat rooms mixed up and posted as Marx in the Biblical chat room I had with Lot (aka Golden). I knew Epi was playing this game, so I knew I had partially exposed myself. Had Lot in Biblical not been a player in Econ, Epi would have known I was Marx. I told the hosts right away and they chose to reset our roles. I couldn't even tell the hosts exactly how I had exposed myself as Marx because I didn't know who else was playing in Biblical.

So I'm to blame for the reset and I annoyed you with pictures all game. Aren't you all glad I came back?

[Epignosis]

I ratted you out to the hosts too.

[Tangrowth]

I was wondering how that reset happened!

I was willing to give you the BOTD with the pictures because I knew you were putting 110% into Biblical, but seeing how insanely analytical you were in that game, that's why I eventually broke down. I figured your motivations for posting pictures in this game were more likely baddie-driven, since your behavior in this game was SO different than in Biblical, where I knew you were a civilian.

[G-Man]

I ratted you out to the hosts too.

Oh, good! At least we're both honest!

[Epignosis]

I ratted you out to the hosts too.

Oh, good! At least we're both honest!

I won't play if the game is compromised. No fun. I was completely prepared to be replaced for the first time ever.