Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[Golden]

MP, I haven't played with Bass much. What, in your opinion, is his meta?

[Tangrowth]

MP, I haven't played with Bass much. What, in your opinion, is his meta?

Generally quiet unless engaged, with occasional exceptions (the most notable being WWE). Tends to vote based on gut reads rather than voting history.

Some have argued he's quieter when civilian or mafia, but I frankly don't see the correlation.

I'm engaging him specifically because I know sometimes he slips through the cracks if he isn't engaged; I think people underestimate his insight and contributions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

okay i'm finally back. if there's any significant question anyone has for me before i catch up, i'd be happy to field it.

[Tangrowth]

okay i'm finally back. if there's any significant question anyone has for me before i catch up, i'd be happy to field it.

Nothing at the moment, but I'm very excited to discuss things with you (as well as anyone else who's around) in real time.

I kicked ass all morning and early afternoon on SAS, so I'm giving myself some mafia downtime.

[Bass_the_Clever]

The one game that stands out in my mind was Dr.Who where you went after Zeek super hard and that was his first game on the syndicate.

LOL, yes, fair enough. But consider the following:

What if I genuinely don't suspect any of the new players?

Then it's fine I was just pointing out I agreed with splints that you were playing different then I have seen in the past. If I started to play different like if I started to posting a lot and I started pulling quotes would you not think something was up? Would you not want to watch me more closely?

I'd definitely think your behavior is different, but recognize that there could be many factors playing into your change of pace, including an influx of RL availability, or perhaps a desire to switch up your game for various possible reasons, etc.

Do you think I'm bad?

I'm not sure how I feel about you or anyone yet its only early day one.

You have literally no opinions on anyone despite all of the discussion thus far?

Do I ever have any big opinions this early? I have some slight pings. Like I said earlier I don't get why DDL was catching so much heat. Epi seems to be having fun so to me that usually means civ Epi. I was wondering about Dom he has been super quiet, does he even know the game has started?

[Tangrowth]

Do I ever have any big opinions this early? I have some slight pings. Like I said earlier I don't get why DDL was catching so much heat. Epi seems to be having fun so to me that usually means civ Epi. I was wondering about Dom he has been super quiet, does he even know the game has started?

Ah-ha! I knew it. Your opinions don't have to be big. Share ANYTHING.

What are the slight pings?

I think Dom is aware, considering he posted once during Day 0.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't know if that should be considered "more-suspect" then your long list of civilian reads.

first of all: with a GTMH (gun to my head), i think i read The Three Noobs and Their Big Helper (Sloonei, sanmateo, DDL, MP) as more town-seeming than not. i don't much care that base probabilities suggest there may be a scum among the group, because for me the entire point of Mafia is to conquer probability and develop reads. we engaged in these conversations and affected our perspectives of one another. and with a few opportunities to look bad, i don't think any of them did. i can understand suspicion of DDL but i don't agree with it. i don't understand suspicion of sanmateo. Sloonei has been the player i've known for many years now without raising any alarms for me. MP's helpfulness has not surprised me at all, and indeed i think his behavior is very much in line with the way he played on RYM -- in reverse. in that case he was seeking the help of other players frequently due to the differences in culture, and he was always highly grateful to receive it. it makes sense to me that he'd be so helpful in this game immediately after that when the culture has shifted to his homeland. whenever i get to producing some rainbow reads of my own, i suspect all of these players will occupy some shade of green.

I think the opposite would be true.

why should the opposite be true? the variable i don't think you're accounting for here is effort level. more content is better on Day 1, and all of the players you're questioning my perspective of have provided a lot of it. obviously nobody is exonerated, but at this stage of the game i think it's beneficial to identify town reads. and the players who provided the most effort to progress this thread through the first real-time day looked decent to me. they didn't look amazing. they didn't scream town-tells at me. but they looked decent. and that sets them above the pile of neutral people who were silent to the point you posted this. and it places them slightly higher than a separate player for whom i provided a "minor gripe" (Golden). his content was to that point lesser than theirs, and within that lesser content i saw a reason for suspicion. so i prompted him to talk about it.

note: when i say "lesser" here i mean only quantity, not quality. i've not intent to insult.

[Tangrowth]

I don't know if that should be considered "more-suspect" then your long list of civilian reads.

first of all: with a GTMH (gun to my head), i think i read The Three Noobs and Their Big Helper (Sloonei, sanmateo, DDL, MP) as more town-seeming than not. i don't much care that base probabilities suggest there may be a scum among the group, because for me the entire point of Mafia is to conquer probability and develop reads. we engaged in these conversations and affected our perspectives of one another. and with a few opportunities to look bad, i don't think any of them did. i can understand suspicion of DDL but i don't agree with it. i don't understand suspicion of sanmateo. Sloonei has been the player i've known for many years now without raising any alarms for me. MP's helpfulness has not surprised me at all, and indeed i think his behavior is very much in line with the way he played on RYM -- in reverse. in that case he was seeking the help of other players frequently due to the differences in culture, and he was always highly grateful to receive it. it makes sense to me that he'd be so helpful in this game immediately after that when the culture has shifted to his homeland. whenever i get to producing some rainbow reads of my own, i suspect all of these players will occupy some shade of green.

I think the opposite would be true.

why should the opposite be true? the variable i don't think you're accounting for here is effort level. more content is better on Day 1, and all of the players you're questioning my perspective of have provided a lot of it. obviously nobody is exonerated, but at this stage of the game i think it's beneficial to identify town reads. and the players who provided the most effort to progress this thread through the first real-time day looked decent to me. they didn't look amazing. they didn't scream town-tells at me. but they looked decent. and that sets them above the pile of neutral people who were silent to the point you posted this. and it places them slightly higher than a separate player for whom i provided a "minor gripe" (Golden). his content was to that point lesser than theirs, and within that lesser content i saw a reason for suspicion. so i prompted him to talk about it.

note: when i say "lesser" here i mean only quantity, not quality. i've not intent to insult.

Does this really have anything to do with what players have been randomized civilian roles though?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Does this really have anything to do with what players have been randomized civilian roles though?

i don't understand the question. can you clarify your meaning relative to my post you quoted?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i have been terrible at quote snipping in this game. MP said that in the quote above, not Metalmarsh.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Btw, I think it's very interesting how Jay started talking about making cases right after the second role was handed out. Which is interesting since the game was pretty much a blank state at that point. Though to be fair, he did say he had nothing at that point.

That could indicate an alignment change. If a player who has done nothing gets a new role and suddenly starts being proactive, it might mean a townie who became mafia, or vice-versa. Just a theory.

the validity of your assertion here is debatable. i'll leave you and others to explore the notion that my Day 0 conduct was indicative of an alignment change, and offer my input when the content demands it. however, i find myself more interested in the implications of this theory you've proposed. based on what you saw from me in Day 0, which side of that theory do you find more plausible? that i was town and became scum, or that i was scum and became town?

the distinction is obviously important.[size=150p my current role ought to mean a great deal more to everyone than my previous role.[/size]

I found Dragon's post a little fluffy bc it really stated nothing as her/his points cancelled each other out.

You reply however twitched my nose a bit.

what about my reply twitched your nose? i see the bit you meant to highlight in the HTML code. what about it?

[Tangrowth]

Does this really have anything to do with what players have been randomized civilian roles though?

i don't understand the question. can you clarify your meaning relative to my post you quoted?

Let me clarify.

You appear to be claiming that your reads fall into categories as such:

Contributors (DDL, me, sanmateo, Sloonei)
Contributor with minor ping (Golden)
Neutral read folks

While I understand your logic, I'm just noting: Yes, we are contributing, but what does that necessarily have to do with what roles we have been randomized?

I suppose what I'm getting at is that I'm increasingly finding it noteworthy that all of the consistently high contributors thus far are slinging little at other players.

You seemed to sling some stuff at DDL, then at Epi; while I see you were fishing for responses, surely your reads must be more sophisticated than the aforementioned categories?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's not that high posters "have less to hide", it's that people should have less room to hide if they're being forced to talk and answer questions they don't want to answer.

Bingo ^

Also, a few people have referenced the theory i proposed about highly active townies promoting a more challenging environment for scum. that is one reason i post so much, but not the only reason. some others:

~ in every iteration of Mafia i've ever known, a townie's chief responsibility aside from scumhunting is to convince other players that he/she is town. some have suggested the opposite is a norm here which honestly baffles me (as does the notion that a dead player can't win the game, but i won't complain about your preferences here as a guest). when i post as much as i do, i really make life harder for myself if i am scum because i allow myself many more opportunities to make a mistake. the more i post, the more likely i am to goof and expose myself. but i post this much anyway, because it's pro-town behavior. and when i'm scum i just have to try my best to survive my own meta. so it's up to the reader to judge my content at face value -- not merely for its quantity. i've given you a lot of content to judge already.

~ the more i post, the more content i inherently encourage from other players. that's a natural result: my content nets responses and tangential conversations, and this amounts to a great deal more content to be judged than otherwise would be present.

~ i simply enjoy the game more when i involve myself in it this much than i would as a quieter player.

[Tangrowth]

It's not that high posters "have less to hide", it's that people should have less room to hide if they're being forced to talk and answer questions they don't want to answer.

Bingo ^

Also, a few people have referenced the theory i proposed about highly active townies promoting a more challenging environment for scum. that is one reason i post so much, but not the only reason. some others:

~ in every iteration of Mafia i've ever known, a townie's chief responsibility aside from scumhunting is to convince other players that he/she is town. some have suggested the opposite is a norm here which honestly baffles me (as does the notion that a dead player can't win the game, but i won't complain about your preferences here as a guest). when i post as much as i do, i really make life harder for myself if i am scum because i allow myself many more opportunities to make a mistake. the more i post, the more likely i am to goof and expose myself. but i post this much anyway, because it's pro-town behavior. and when i'm scum i just have to try my best to survive my own meta. so it's up to the reader to judge my content at face value -- not merely for its quantity. i've given you a lot of content to judge already.

~ the more i post, the more content i inherently encourage from other players. that's a natural result: my content nets responses and tangential conversations, and this amounts to a great deal more content to be judged than otherwise would be present.

~ i simply enjoy the game more when i involve myself in it this much than i would as a quieter player.

All fair points. In fact, I agree. We have similar approaches to the game.

But you lump me, DDL, sanmateo, and Sloonei together at the top of your reads at the moment. Is that incorrect?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Let me clarify.

You appear to be claiming that your reads fall into categories as such:

Contributors (DDL, me, sanmateo, Sloonei)
Contributor with minor ping (Golden)
Neutral read folks

While I understand your logic, I'm just noting: Yes, we are contributing, but what does that necessarily have to do with what roles we have been randomized?

that's sort of the point. i don't know what roles you've been randomized, and it's my task to become confident about one lean or another. and based upon the degree of contribution AND content within that contribution, i have leaned more positively than negatively with all of the names above. my lean for Golden was less distinct because my ping on him remains unanswered for -- and his degree of contribution is lesser in quantity than the others mentioned here. or at least it was at the time of the post in question.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that I'm increasingly finding it noteworthy that all of the consistently high contributors thus far are slinging little at other players.

You seemed to sling some stuff at DDL, then at Epi; while I see you were fishing for responses, surely your reads must be more sophisticated than the aforementioned categories?

i do have more significant reads, yes. very soon here i'll be compiling full reads data on everyone and you'll see how i feel. i simply haven't gotten there yet.

[Golden]

my lean for Golden was less distinct because my ping on him remains unanswered for.

Is there something you feel you've asked me that you feel I haven't answered?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

But you lump me, DDL, sanmateo, and Sloonei together at the top of your reads at the moment. Is that incorrect?

i've said you'd all be some shade of green. i don't know yet that you'll be on top. again, i'll see how i feel as i do all of my homework in this thread. you know how i am about presenting my reads, so just stay tuned. :P

[Tangrowth]

Thanks, Jay, much appreciated.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to aggressively pursue you or Bass because I necessarily suspect either of you at the moment, but pressing you for answers in real time allows me to best gauge the content and sincerity of your explanations.

If I seem impatient, well, that's because I am. :P

I'll be recompiling my Rainbow List later when it becomes more appropriate for an update as well.

The following players NEED to post:
acrosstheaether
birdwithteeth11
Dom
TinyBubbles

I'll stop spamming the thread for a bit here, but I'll be around to discuss if anyone else wants to.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

my lean for Golden was less distinct because my ping on him remains unanswered for.

Is there something you feel you've asked me that you feel I haven't answered?

you may have addressed my questions somewhere. i really need to catch up. once i have done so, if i still feel you've not done so then i'll make it known.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thanks, Jay, much appreciated.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to aggressively pursue you or Bass because I necessarily suspect either of you at the moment, but pressing you for answers in real time allows me to best gauge the content and sincerity of your explanations.

If I seem impatient, well, that's because I am. :P

I'll be recompiling my Rainbow List later when it becomes more appropriate for an update as well.

The following players NEED to post:
acrosstheaether
birdwithteeth11
Dom
TinyBubbles

I'll stop spamming the thread for a bit here, but I'll be around to discuss if anyone else wants to.

for sure! i don't mean to stop you. press everyone and their mothers to answer your questions.

just gimme a sec before i answer more myself lol

[Marmot]

Has anyone considered that G-Man is pulling a gambit, isn't actually cursed, and is skating by on Day 1?

Why did a couple of players automatically dismiss any future suspicion of him assuming he's cursed?

Last time I searched through the roles, I don't remember seeing one that fit being cursed. I thought perhaps there was some game mechanic that caused it instead, but I have no idea what that would be.

I did not expect that G-Man's first game back (excluding LMS) would see him faking a gambit on Day 1. Then again, I've not played a proper game with G-Man before.

The one game that stands out in my mind was Dr.Who where you went after Zeek super hard and that was his first game on the syndicate.

LOL, yes, fair enough. But consider the following:

What if I genuinely don't suspect any of the new players?

Then it's fine I was just pointing out I agreed with splints that you were playing different then I have seen in the past. If I started to play different like if I started to posting a lot and I started pulling quotes would you not think something was up? Would you not want to watch me more closely?

I'd definitely think your behavior is different, but recognize that there could be many factors playing into your change of pace, including an influx of RL availability, or perhaps a desire to switch up your game for various possible reasons, etc.

Do you think I'm bad?

I agree with you about Bass, but I've noticed this is a slow-building trend, not that he suddenly started posting more. He is more active in Flash Mafia as well.

[Tangrowth]

No worries, Jay!

MM, what do you mean you agree with me about Bass? In what regard?

[Marmot]

No worries, Jay!

MM, what do you mean you agree with me about Bass? In what regard?

His behavior seems different. He is posting more this game than I am accustomed to. But as I also said, he has been doing so in Flash Mafia, so this incident is not isolated.

On a more personal note, Bass asked me about my suspicions. I was thrown off a little by this. When I play with Bass, the only times he seems to talk to or discuss me is when he is saying I am bad and I should be lynched, or the very occasional civilian read of me. Of course, he is usually right.

[Tangrowth]

No worries, Jay!

MM, what do you mean you agree with me about Bass? In what regard?

His behavior seems different. He is posting more this game than I am accustomed to. But as I also said, he has been doing so in Flash Mafia, so this incident is not isolated.

On a more personal note, Bass asked me about my suspicions. I was thrown off a little by this. When I play with Bass, the only times he seems to talk to or discuss me is when he is saying I am bad and I should be lynched, or the very occasional civilian read of me. Of course, he is usually right.

Oh, you misunderstood. I didn't say he was acting different this game; I was entertaining a hypothetical condition in order to demonstrate a point he was making about ME acting differently.

Yes, that said, he has been more engaged this game than I have seen in recent memory halfway through Day 1's.

What do you think of him? Bad, civilian, what?

[Marmot]

No worries, Jay!

MM, what do you mean you agree with me about Bass? In what regard?

His behavior seems different. He is posting more this game than I am accustomed to. But as I also said, he has been doing so in Flash Mafia, so this incident is not isolated.

On a more personal note, Bass asked me about my suspicions. I was thrown off a little by this. When I play with Bass, the only times he seems to talk to or discuss me is when he is saying I am bad and I should be lynched, or the very occasional civilian read of me. Of course, he is usually right.

Oh, you misunderstood. I didn't say he was acting different this game; I was entertaining a hypothetical condition in order to demonstrate a point he was making about ME acting differently.

Yes, that said, he has been more engaged this game than I have seen in recent memory halfway through Day 1's.

What do you think of him? Bad, civilian, what?

Clearly I did misunderstand. I read your post again.

I'd definitely think your behavior is different, but recognize that there could be many factors playing into your change of pace, including an influx of RL availability, or perhaps a desire to switch up your game for various possible reasons, etc.

Do you think I'm bad?

And I've come to the same conclusion. You are calling his behavior different, but offering an explanation as to why that is happening.

I don't have a read on him yet.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

okay Golden, i found your response to my "minor gripe".

the one minor gripe i might make about Golden's posts to this point (which aren't dependent upon the answers given by others like the one above) is that despite his decent thoroughness he hasn't provided many reads.

I'm not generally known for providing 'many' reads. I just wait until I see a thing I think needs pursuing and then go hard at it. Sometimes I find that thing early. So far, I haven't found one.

i can't speak about how you're known since i wouldn't know either way. can anyone vouch for the notion that Golden isn't one to provide many reads on other players?

this would surprise me some, because MP had asserted that your general style is very townie-seeming like my own, and providing reads is a very common means by which players tend to achieve that. that doesn't mean you don't have other methods though. at face value, i saw you as a player involving yourself nicely in discussion by providing good, thick posts -- but as an external commentator. you seemed to be observing the game more than playing it with the rest of us. game-relevant commentary without actual reads is a pretty common theme among scum post histories in my experience.

this is where metagaming can come in handy, and it's also where i must fall short. because i don't know you well enough yet.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

How would you feel if I voted for JaggedJimmyJay?

you've asked a couple other players about me (granting one of them being Picture Man). has that exercise provided you with any insight either about me or the players you've asked?

[Marmot]

How would you feel if I voted for JaggedJimmyJay?

you've asked a couple other players about me (granting one of them being Picture Man). has that exercise provided you with any insight either about me or the players you've asked?

About you, no.

About Turnip Head, we'll find out when he gets home.

About G-Man, nothing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Has anyone considered that G-Man is pulling a gambit, isn't actually cursed, and is skating by on Day 1?

Why did a couple of players automatically dismiss any future suspicion of him assuming he's cursed?

RYM is the Gambit Capital of Mafia, so yeah i've considered that. before i proceed though i need to know more about setup tendencies on The Syndicate. if he is cursed on Day 1, would it be an extremely abnormal abberation? a little unusual? totally normal?

[Tangrowth]

Extremely abnormal.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

If you are "leaning town" on me, then wouldn't I also be misguided?

But I don't think you read me, DDL. You claim I have "very little posts." I'm assuming you mean that I have "very few posts" and not very tiny posts. I have sixteen posts of varying sizes, anyway. Your claim is that these posts contain "sharp accusations."

I hope others reread me. Do you all think I have sharp accusations? I see only one (my tenth post) that I've held onto since yesterday evening (posts 14 & 15, and now this here 17). These sharp accusation(s) (I don't see how the plural form of the word is warranted) you, DDL, chalk up to "player style." That sounds like a subtle way to dismiss my accusation of you, which is my only accusation to date.

First, don't bother arguing grammar with me. You are an English teacher, as someone said. I'm a guy who has English as a second language. So yes, I'm going to make some stupid mistakes, and I'm not even gonna bother arguing them with you because you're obviously going to win.

Now, the difference between you and sanmateo is that I believe sanmateo is playing a very risky game. He is not trying to avoid looking scummy. While you have tunneled on me, he has tunneled HARD, making a lot of posts about me and attracting other people's attention. And he looks a lot more angry and emotional, like he really believes I'm mafia and wants to prove that despite the lack of arguments. So if I am to assume a scum player would try to avoid heat, then I have little reason to believe he is scum.

Now you, you are posting a lot less. You are also tunneling, but are making it in a way that doesn't attract much heat to you. That makes you more suspicious than sanmateo. Now, when a player makes few posts and tunnels, I see that as a scum flag, but your posts give me the impression that you are someone who values quality over quantity, and that you are using your energy in fewer posts, making the sharper accusations that I perceive. So that fits with a town character which I'm led to believe you are. That's what I meant about style.

See what I mean by giving yourself outs? The word "maybe" in your sentence served no purpose, as the prepositional phase ("if most of the scum is conveniently lurking") already implied it. Compare:

There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.
There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and 1-2 scum argue with each other.

"Maybe" (an adverb, by the way) doesn't change the meaning of the sentence at all. It's filler. However, you are now placing importance on the word, trying to get me to believe that it indicates you don't know how many Mafia are in the group, that you were just "aware of the possibility," a goal that serves no purpose if you are indeed a civilian; only Mafia would need to persuade people that they don't know how many Mafia are in the talkative crew.

That's the impression I get from your posts. Your first three, for example, reek of new guy trying hard to make it clear that he doesn't have BTSC.

So your point is that I'm mafia because I'm trying to convince people that I'm not mafia?

How does that even make sense? Yes, I've been trying to avoid making people think I'm mafia since the game started. Why wouldn't I? It's the freaking goal of the game. What did you expect me to do? Refuse to answer your posts and say "I'm a townie and townies don't need to prove anything"?

I'm already playing a risky game by calling people scummy left and right, it helps me if I at least try to make people believe I'm town. Again, why wouldn't I?

Does that work if you telegraph what your intentions are?
Is this really an attempt to get people to talk if they know you are trying to trip them up?
How do you make people talk?

This only makes sense if you read my post in a vaccum. If you looked at the rest of the conversation, you'd notice pretty much everyone was talking about their playing styles, explaining them to each other and questioning each others posts about how they were playing. And yes, I was being part of that. I suppose that's somewhat meta, since I was using a strategy and talking about it at the same time, but hey, that's how the conversation was going. It's not like there were any game events at that point to be discussed (such as votes or lynches), only people's posting styles.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

caught up. going to generate reads as i get opportunities here, i am ever-distracted by RL crap.

[Golden]

I think your style and my style are very similar, from what I've seen of you, or perhaps more accurately our philosophies are very similar. I think MP makes an apt comparison.

My method is not to provide reads across everyone (say, the MP rainbow method) but it is to interrogate and ask questions where I think I see something bad, and provides reads only on these people I feel I have a read on. I don't see much value in me saying 'I get a very slight civ vibe from x', especially at this point when such a read would, I think, be meaningless.

I'll defend people when I really think they are good. I'll go after people when I think they might be bad. And I'll honestly explain my thought processes in any case. Otherwise I'll more or less ignore the rest in terms of my input into the thread. I can understand why it bothers you for now because I haven't really provided much of a read yet beyond sanmateo giving me a ping. You won't be seeing a golden who gives no reads by day three, I can assure you.

[G-Man]

[G-Man]

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Golden, I'm not seeing you doing much interrogation like you say. You are mostly stating general facts about the game, like MP's meta, your theories about yesterday newbie chat, post activity, and telling stories about your previous games. But I'm not seeing much direct interaction between you and other players, be it reads, accusations, or interrogations. It feels like you're not getting yourself involved.

[Marmot]

If you are "leaning town" on me, then wouldn't I also be misguided?

But I don't think you read me, DDL. You claim I have "very little posts." I'm assuming you mean that I have "very few posts" and not very tiny posts. I have sixteen posts of varying sizes, anyway. Your claim is that these posts contain "sharp accusations."

I hope others reread me. Do you all think I have sharp accusations? I see only one (my tenth post) that I've held onto since yesterday evening (posts 14 & 15, and now this here 17). These sharp accusation(s) (I don't see how the plural form of the word is warranted) you, DDL, chalk up to "player style." That sounds like a subtle way to dismiss my accusation of you, which is my only accusation to date.

First, don't bother arguing grammar with me. You are an English teacher, as someone said. I'm a guy who has English as a second language. So yes, I'm going to make some stupid mistakes, and I'm not even gonna bother arguing them with you because you're obviously going to win.

Now, the difference between you and sanmateo is that I believe sanmateo is playing a very risky game. He is not trying to avoid looking scummy. While you have tunneled on me, he has tunneled HARD, making a lot of posts about me and attracting other people's attention. And he looks a lot more angry and emotional, like he really believes I'm mafia and wants to prove that despite the lack of arguments. So if I am to assume a scum player would try to avoid heat, then I have little reason to believe he is scum.

Now you, you are posting a lot less. You are also tunneling, but are making it in a way that doesn't attract much heat to you. That makes you more suspicious than sanmateo. Now, when a player makes few posts and tunnels, I see that as a scum flag, but your posts give me the impression that you are someone who values quality over quantity, and that you are using your energy in fewer posts, making the sharper accusations that I perceive. So that fits with a town character which I'm led to believe you are. That's what I meant about style.

Have you considered that Epignosis just thinks you are bad?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Have you considered that Epignosis just thinks you are bad?

No, but I hope that isn't the case.

And if it is, why is he bothering? We're supposed to hunt scum, not bad players.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Wait, you mean bad in the sense of bad player, or mafia?

If it's the later, then yes, it seems to me he thinks I'm mafia.

[Marmot]

Wait, you mean bad in the sense of bad player, or mafia?

If it's the later, then yes, it seems to me he thinks I'm mafia.

Hmm, I guess I did leave myself open to interpretation there.

But yes, I meant mafia. Scum is not a commonly used term on this site, as we use bad or baddie in its place. Some players here feel uncomfortable with the word, but I don't think any of those players are playing this game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i apologize in advance. some of these ISOs might end up really big. normally i'd collapse them within spoilers for the sake of your eyes, but yanno.

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Day 1 ISO - acrosstheaether

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

Good point.

she has only put up 4 posts so far, so there isn't much to talk about. the one i've highlighted here seems the most meaningful to me because it lends support to the ongoing mass-case against DDL. she bro-fives Epignosis for his take but does not explain why his insight was significant to her. so i think she could rightly be accused of throwing more firewood on the pile, and the implications of that behavior hinge upon the alignment of DDL. i view DDL as more town than not, so that means this post troubles me.

Hi. Sorry for missing the day. I've been loaded to death with uni stuff and other stuff to do lately. How am I supposed to vote on the poll?

her absence was explained with university obligations. i believe her. it's also worth noting that in many recent games, she has been relatively uninvolved on Day 1 before playing a little harder later in the game -- if left alive to do so.

overall i read her null. GTMH (gun to my head), i'd lean negative.

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Day 1 ISO - Bass_the_Clever

I really don't understand why so many people are throwing around DDL name. I could understand if people have played a game with him before and know his tells but this is his first game here and I have no read on him.
MM out of syndicate regulas who are you getting bad vibes from?
I also agree with splints MP is acting different to the new players and might be something to keep an eye on.

this post pinged me a lot, truly. it's important to state that it's again contingent upon my town lean on DDL being accurate. to me, this post bears the appearance of a player who anticipates a lynch of DDL and a town flip. in my experience, it is relatively common for scum players to speak out against erroneous Day 1 wagons. townies can do it too, so the way i differentiate my perspectives is to judge the reasons provided for standing in the potential lynchee's defense. Bass's reason is simply that everyone can't know DDL's tendencies because he's new -- which ignores the notion of face-value scumminess. i think this is a fundamental thing, and it's why i have stated i understand why people have suspected DDL despite my own disagreement. DDL himself probably understands it too, he's suggested as much with his comments about being an inevitable lynch.

this was Bass's first truly important post. and it doesn't look to me like this mindset of DDL defense was arrived upon naturally.

SEPARATELY, this post also contains a vague support of the continuing meta case against MP. and when support is lent to a case against a player in a vague way, i think that's inherently suspicious. "something to keep an eye on" is just a scummy phrase to employ imo. it smells of a soft setup to be revisited later assuming MP isn't the Day 1 lynch.

The one game that stands out in my mind was Dr.Who where you went after Zeek super hard and that was his first game on the syndicate.

LOL, yes, fair enough. But consider the following:

What if I genuinely don't suspect any of the new players?

Then it's fine I was just pointing out I agreed with splints that you were playing different then I have seen in the past. If I started to play different like if I started to posting a lot and I started pulling quotes would you not think something was up? Would you not want to watch me more closely?

I'd definitely think your behavior is different, but recognize that there could be many factors playing into your change of pace, including an influx of RL availability, or perhaps a desire to switch up your game for various possible reasons, etc.

Do you think I'm bad?

I'm not sure how I feel about you or anyone yet its only early day one.

Bass provided an explanation for his take on MP07 in this exchange (also including MP's rebuttals). the vague pledges to "watch more closely" are reasserted, before inevitably Bass seems to abandon the responsibility of actually taking a stance. on anyone.

overall i read him more scum than town.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*most recent pile of pictures*

yo G-man, i think you're trying to communicate with me. i see "Hay angry bear", which is probably "Hey JJJ"

but after that i lose you. try a new rebus my man!

[sanmateo]

damn

so many posts

im dehydrated, rocks need water to think. brb

[Golden]

Golden, I'm not seeing you doing much interrogation like you say. You are mostly stating general facts about the game, like MP's meta, your theories about yesterday newbie chat, post activity, and telling stories about your previous games. But I'm not seeing much direct interaction between you and other players, be it reads, accusations, or interrogations. It feels like you're not getting yourself involved.

I haven't said I've done interrogation. I've said I've not yet seen anything I feel is worth interrogating. I've said it again and again.

I'm not going to create noise just because other people think it will make me look better. I'm not (necessarily) going to give reads because people ask for them. I'm not interested in pursuing people because they are people and they are there. I'm only going to pursue people because I think they might be bad.

As for 'telling stories about previous games' - what, exactly, do you think the function of that was?

linki - I have to say, I am not a fan of the word scum. But it isn't something I take personally, and everyone should use language that feels most comfortable to them. I use 'baddie' and 'civvie', so DDL I think you can definitely take 'bad' that way here.

[Golden]

What is ISO?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Guys, one question, how can I change the word that appears under my username? The one that's "patsy", right now?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What is ISO?

isolated post history. i am analyzing each player within their unique histories.

[G-Man]

[Russtifinko]

First off, I just want to say I am thoroughly enjoying playing this game with all of you and that I hope sanmateo comes back feeling less frustrated (I understand the feeling) because I've been appreciating his input.

++++++++

Regarding my "different" style of play, Elohcin has provided a tangible reason, that I'm "cheerful", and several players have said that I seem more considerate of others' opinions. This is fair enough. But since it is clearly evident to practically everyone that I'm playing a different style, I have to know, is that all? What about my style is really different?

MP: was a big aspect at the beginning, but I kind of buy his and other people's justification that he is trying to adapt to multiple communities and his return to mafia. To be fair, his style of being nice to others is how he acts pretty much everywhere I talked to him.

I think this is a fair representation about what could possibly be different about my posting style, but I don't see how that would play into my alignment.

Bass says, for example, that it's something to keep on eye on. Yet clearly regardless of my two alignments (since we received two roles) I have been this way the entire game, correct? Or have I not? Can someone clarify here?

++++++++

Regarding civilians not winning unless they are alive, let me elaborate. It seemed to be a general trend when I played games at Lostpedia and affiliated mafia sites, so when I started hosting I set mine up that way, but over time I have grown less and less happy with this policy. As MM noted, in Death Note, I allowed any player to win if dead so long as their win condition is established, and I was very happy with it. The problem, I believe, that many have with letting the entire faction win (either civilians or mafia, but especially civilians) is that some civilians may have contributed practically nothing to the cause, and the sense of accomplishment that accompanies surviving until endgame and defeating mafia makes for a more satisfying and exclusive win title.

That said, there are absolutely no hard and fast rules here at this site when it comes to many of these things, even open setups or whatever. It's all up to every single individual host.

Personally, I plan on incorporating dead wins as much as I can for reasons that DDL stated, but I still like to make people work for their wins.

++++++++

It's interesting that Turnip Head has pulled the trigger on Golden because there's a weird vibe to him that I've been getting all game, but have been waiting to see how he'd continue throughout the Day period. The feeling I am receiving from Golden is that he isn't being entirely truthful; I also think some of his statements have been questionable, such as being worried about a new person being bandwagoned, etc., particularly when many people here at TS tend to at least allow players new to the site somewhat or an entire free pass on Day 1.

I'm going to try to refine my opinions on players and can elucidate this further when I update my next Rainbow List. I'm curious what Turnip Head has to say further as well.

++++++++

Here is a Gender Guide, which I can now actually make since I know everyone's gender (thanks to Golden correcting me on TinyBubbles). :P

I typically include these in my games when I'm hosting, but I don't think many hosts do. Hope this helps. Blue is male and pink is female.

acrosstheaether
Bass_the_Clever
birdwithteeth11
Black Rock
Dom
Dragon D. Luffy
Elohcin
Epignosis
fingersplints
G-Man
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay
Metalmarsh89
MovingPictures07
Roxy
sanmateo
Sloonei
TinyBubbles
Turnip Head

Thanks for the gender list, MP! I only knew about 12 of 19, so the help is appreciated!

Wait, what? This is terrible lol. This completely goes against the spirit of the game, imo. Which is that townies should work together to find scum and prioritize the team's victory over their own survival. If this is true, then I suppose it probably encourages the people on this site to be the game badly.

I mean, if all my effort to catch scum will be rendered moot since I might get day 1 lynched for putting myself in the spotlight, then I might as well shut up and try not to be too productive instead, if only to maximise my chances of survival. Seriously, this is beyond terrible.

Different people take a different approach to it.

I tend to get more satisfaction out of the town winning than I get out of a shiny winners banner.

In one sense it encourages people to be poor civilians, certainly. In another, it's just a different kind of game, not a 'worse' kind of game.

In any event, the existence of so many newbies with a different style may shake the meta.

Executive decision: Dead civs can win in this game. Economics is all about aligning incentives properly, and not allowing dead civs to win means they're incentivized to prioritize survival over getting baddies. It's a conflict of interest inherent in their win conditions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i'll try to use the word "mafia" instead of scum. apologies in advance if i forget in some places. i can understand the word being seen as unsavory.