Battlestar Galactica Mafia - GAME OVER

[DrWilgy]

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Ain't claimin nothin... But I like where your head is at.

[Dex]

You can say it looks however you like. I definitely human and I am not mafia. Additionally, I believe that there is a high likelihood that win cons are fluid for various roles based on events and time in the game. Yep those two may have a win con that might be conducive with the humans, but can you say based on their earlier actions in the series that they are civilian aligned? I can't. I'm not inclined to trust them easily. I would trust Athena right now, and that is about it. This game is designed with a lot of gray area I think. Anyway Wilgy has made a request and I'll look into it, if not tonight then tomorrow. I don't feel anymore trusting of sig than others do, so we will see if it changes my mind about who to give my vote to next.

It's a mistake to limit our consideration of cylon alignment to their behavior in the show alone; there's also game balance to consider. Back before I subbed in 3J established that 20:8:1 was hardly balanced. Then people grudingly accepted that maybe Athena was civ friendly; is 21:7:1 all that different? What number of BTSC cylons do we find reasonable? We shouldn't be looking at Leoben, say, in terms of "At this point in the show he was truly evil, but at that point in the show he was anti-Cavil, so who knows?" We should be looking at Leoben in terms of how many non-BTSC cylons do we think there are, and, given that number, who, according to the lore might they be?

Again, in my opinion, the cylon rebellion simply hands us the answer. Four for Cavil's BTSC faction (three remain) and three or four for the anti-Cavil faction (depending on whether Caprica 6 is an Indy or not). Given the rez-ship advantage and the x-factor of the Final Five, this sounds about right to me.

We've been uncannily good at uncovering non-BTSC cylons. Epi right off the bat, then LoRab, now Wilgy. And so soon as we do, the BTSC cylons pile on. We have to stop treating anti-Cavil cylons as second class civs. Who knows what LoRabs power was? Maybe we are sorely hampered without it.

I'm looking at players who kept pushing for an Epi lynch even after he flipped Athena. I'm really looking at players who just complacently gave in to martial law - "Well, Epi might be good, LoRab might be good, but all cylons must die, whaddya gonna do?" I'm looking at players who jumped at the LoRab bandwagon, and I'll be looking at players pushing hard for Wilgy.

After doing an ISO on you, Daisy, I see that you do not fit this criteria. So I'll just ask you to trust me on Wilgy.

[DrWilgy]

Thx God

[Ricochet]

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Ain't claimin nothin... But I like where your head is at.

Not saying you claimed anything. Saying what assumptions others would start forming.

Also, do you have something for me?

don't know how to treat Wilgy's claim, it's basically the same "I'm on the good side" speech that LoRab served us - and her flip turned to be an arguably ambiguous Cylon character, after all; then again, any outed Cylon could basically feed us this speech, in case there are still some left among non-claimers. I want more from Wilgy. I hope from more from Wilgy, if he's truthful, because LoRab's tactic ("I'm good and that's that") was not enough to earn her any clemency. I still recall baddie Wilgy being more faux-involved than this, but just well he could have chosen to jest and fluff this time around, so

[Ricochet]

Wait, who was it that typo'd Dex as "God" into a GTH?

Was it Wilgy?

*interesting*

[S~V~S]

You can say it looks however you like. I definitely human and I am not mafia. Additionally, I believe that there is a high likelihood that win cons are fluid for various roles based on events and time in the game. Yep those two may have a win con that might be conducive with the humans, but can you say based on their earlier actions in the series that they are civilian aligned? I can't. I'm not inclined to trust them easily. I would trust Athena right now, and that is about it. This game is designed with a lot of gray area I think. Anyway Wilgy has made a request and I'll look into it, if not tonight then tomorrow. I don't feel anymore trusting of sig than others do, so we will see if it changes my mind about who to give my vote to next.

It's a mistake to limit our consideration of cylon alignment to their behavior in the show alone; there's also game balance to consider. Back before I subbed in 3J established that 20:8:1 was hardly balanced. Then people grudingly accepted that maybe Athena was civ friendly; is 21:7:1 all that different? What number of BTSC cylons do we find reasonable? We shouldn't be looking at Leoben, say, in terms of "At this point in the show he was truly evil, but at that point in the show he was anti-Cavil, so who knows?" We should be looking at Leoben in terms of how many non-BTSC cylons do we think there are, and, given that number, who, according to the lore might they be?

Again, in my opinion, the cylon rebellion simply hands us the answer. Four for Cavil's BTSC faction (three remain) and three or four for the anti-Cavil faction (depending on whether Caprica 6 is an Indy or not). Given the rez-ship advantage and the x-factor of the Final Five, this sounds about right to me.

We've been uncannily good at uncovering non-BTSC cylons. Epi right off the bat, then LoRab, now Wilgy. And so soon as we do, the BTSC cylons pile on. We have to stop treating anti-Cavil cylons as second class civs. Who knows what LoRabs power was? Maybe we are sorely hampered without it.

I'm looking at players who kept pushing for an Epi lynch even after he flipped Athena. I'm really looking at players who just complacently gave in to martial law - "Well, Epi might be good, LoRab might be good, but all cylons must die, whaddya gonna do?" I'm looking at players who jumped at the LoRab bandwagon, and I'll be looking at players pushing hard for Wilgy.

After doing an ISO on you, Daisy, I see that you do not fit this criteria. So I'll just ask you to trust me on Wilgy.

Have you read his ISO before he came under fire and actually started playing the game? I hope you are not basing all of this on associative evidence, like the bolded above, as opposed to thread based evidence (Wilgy acting as sketchy as all hell). Now he is acting all indignant as if he were confirmed civilian, and you are saying you will suspect people for suspecting him?

I am inclined to trust you on this since this is very much something I do myself, but please keep the saber rattling down since you aren't defending someone who was acting like a model citizen.

[Silverwolf]

Dex-My problem is that you are assuming that Wilgy is one of the good ones. Your reasons are vague and can't talk about it and asking people to trust you. This isn't good enough for me. I need to know why, outside of something you can't say, he's a good cylon. If I was a bad cylon, my tactic would be to try to convince everyone I'm good. I'd start acting like it by hunting people immediately to get the focus on others. Wilgy has been better since he claimed but he waited until the last minute to do so. We are lucky this interference in the lynch turned out the way it did and not the way it would have in the Nero/LoRab situation. I don't know the lore like the rest of you. My play is based on scumhunting like I always do. Like I said, I'm willing to go along with their being non-Cavil cylons and leaving them alone, but I don't know if Wilgy is one of those or one of the Cavil ones and if he's one of the Cavil ones, I want him gone.

[DrWilgy]

*chomps on Silverwolf's leg*

I willsh shry shoo ansher all keshionsh ashk'd ohf me shoon.

You were here posting last night. You have 24 hours from the time you posted this to give me something to work with. You have promised to deliver content before and have not. I have zero tolerance for this kind of play in games. I vote it and lynch it.

So this is when you voted me. This is fair, I dilly-dallied, I would've prolly done the same thing considering my delays.

I'd also still be willing to lynch Long Con. Black Rock's support of him holds some weight and he definitely is showing a lot of effort and not knowing about certain things that'd I'd expect him too seems genuine but I have a bad feeling about him I can't shake.

ISOing Glorfindel he has a few good posts and explains himself well. I don't like his voting pattern and behavior around lynches however.

Wilgy seems just too unreadable for me and I didn't like IAWY so I guess that's my biggest complaint about him.

bea has just faded fast, I know she's busy but even her last catch up was basically a bunch of nothing, just kind of floating around here and there.

this is what I was basing your read on me by. I need to remember that IAWY and I are the same person.

Updated list of Non-Claimers
a2thezebra
DrWilgy
Epignosis
Glorfindel
OA
Ricotech
Sokoth
Vompatti

Off this list, I'm gonna vote for either DrWilgy or Glorfindel-I will re ISO Glorfindel. Wilgy, I'm not trying to force you into any certain style of play but answering my questions will help me read you better. Glorfindel asked about my suspicions and tried to address them. That's a point in his favor and a negative in yours. Again, I want to get the best read I can on you both because off the above list, one of you two are it, since sig claimed for real and likely isn't a good option now for today because he claimed today.

I'm not going to witch hunt off this list. I'm only gonna pick people on it I'm suspicious of. If the only nonclaimers seem town, then I'll leave them alone.

M'k this is as far back as I'm going (and have time for currently). Silver, I have responded to your questions previous. What are you thoughts regarding my answers?

I'm unsure why IAWY got baddie vibes to everyone. When I asked about him, I believe the general response was "bad gut feel". My only guestimation is that he was nervous about being a cylon, and got caught up in that.

Linki - What was it that classified me as sketch by your reads SVS? would it be easy to see in your ISO or can you just tell me?

[Dex]

The President passed a law, she did not pass a "plan". If you're telling me that the PLAN of the President was to have everyone circumvent the law and push for a total extinguish of the law's amnesty effects, you are extrapolating a bit wildly, I'd say. Nevertheless, yet again, I was under the impulse of the law having value in outing Cylons, as was shown in making LoRab cave. Frankly, it made Wilgy cave as well, it seems, which this time also had a more agreeable consequence (Cain's death).

OK, but I'm not talking about the President's law, I'm talking about Marmot's plan.

"Civs gain the advantage" ... "even if civs gain no advantage". Huh?

Civs actually do gain an advantage, but even if that weren't the case...

Anyway, I stick by what I said. I still find it a bit odd to say that civs gain an "advantage". At the very best (and I think even LC mentioned this), they eliminate a disadvantage. Then, status quo of normal lynch would resume and the civs would have the same chances to lynch baddies as they did before the amnesty law was passed.

And you're unwilling to eliminate a disadvantage and return to the status quo because..?

Not what I meant. In light of an incomplete amnesty cleanup, baddies could "blend" by claiming within the pack of claimers and, given the controversy in this matter, leave civilians who (for various reason) may oppose the claiming plan to be eyeballed in the aftermath.

Except that there are no good reasons for human civs to oppose the claiming plan

I was also very clear what a "witchhunt" in this situation might be. If claimlist remains incomplete, there is no fundamental way to ascertain that all non-claimers must be bad. If you'll push for an agenda to blindly purge all non-claimers, you'd be basically conducting what I called witchhunt.

There's a damn good chance, however, that non-claimers must be cylon. There are witches. They are bad. They are hiding.

I'm fine with Epi, LoRab, and Wilgy not claiming. It's the rest of you that concern me.

For more proof, just check Matt's posts during Day Five. As soon as the non-claimer list shortened to a number that could still be reasonably associated with a baddie team (say 6...7), he went on "let's show our pitchforks at these, baddies surely must be there" mode.

We need to put pressure on them. Do I think they're all "bad" ? No. Do I think Cavil and/or other bad cylons are hiding in this bunch? Absolutely.

Matt's right.

[DrWilgy]

Golden presents tolerance simulator AKA Battlestar Galactica Mafia
"It's not my fault I was born this way" - Wilgy
"I'm willing to go along with their being non-Cavil cylons and leaving them alone, but I don't know if Wilgy is one of those or one of the Cavil ones and if he's one of the Cavil ones, I want him gone." - Silver
"Because there are not living Cylons I would trust at this point." - Daisy

Ok, now srs back to video editing.

[ObscureAllure]

Also, I don't know what Matt knows you are talking about.

Oh, he does. Trust me. He's playing dumb now but he let it slip earlier. He knows exactly why I thought what I did about LC. The fact that it didn't bring him to think the same says a lot about Matt.

[Dex]

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Still playing the same card you did with LoRab. There's only one possible civ-friendly role left, what are the odds that it's Wilgy, best to just kill him.

[ObscureAllure]

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Or he could be a bad cylon lying? Let's do the math. How many bad cylons (not Capricia Six) are left compared to the one Capricia Six? The odds are much higher that he's not Six. And that's even if we assume Six isn't bad. We don't know that. Literally every cylon who gets caught being a cylon is going to claim being six. They can't all be six. It's impossible. He's NOT six.

[Marmot]

Wilgy has already claimed though.

[Marmot]

Wilgy has already claimed though.

This is directed at Dex who said he was fine with DrWilgy not claiming.

[Dex]

Have you read his ISO before he came under fire and actually started playing the game? I hope you are not basing all of this on associative evidence, like the bolded above, as opposed to thread based evidence (Wilgy acting as sketchy as all hell). Now he is acting all indignant as if he were confirmed civilian, and you are saying you will suspect people for suspecting him?

I am inclined to trust you on this since this is very much something I do myself, but please keep the saber rattling down since you aren't defending someone who was acting like a model citizen.

I am not basing this on associative evidence. I was willing to vote Wilgy in the spirit of fostering civ cooperation before I decided to go all Cain mutiny instead. I am not defending Wilgy's playstyle. But after the lynch post, I saw that he was telling the truth.

Dex-My problem is that you are assuming that Wilgy is one of the good ones. Your reasons are vague and can't talk about it and asking people to trust you. This isn't good enough for me. I need to know why, outside of something you can't say, he's a good cylon. If I was a bad cylon, my tactic would be to try to convince everyone I'm good. I'd start acting like it by hunting people immediately to get the focus on others. Wilgy has been better since he claimed but he waited until the last minute to do so. We are lucky this interference in the lynch turned out the way it did and not the way it would have in the Nero/LoRab situation. I don't know the lore like the rest of you. My play is based on scumhunting like I always do. Like I said, I'm willing to go along with their being non-Cavil cylons and leaving them alone, but I don't know if Wilgy is one of those or one of the Cavil ones and if he's one of the Cavil ones, I want him gone.

I get that Silver. I am only assuming that Wilgy is one of the good ones in the same sense I was assuming LC was Cain. The evidence is in-thread. I understand that you can't just take my word for it and that not being able to be specific about it is really unsatisfactory. You've got to go by your gut.

[Dex]

Wilgy has already claimed though.

This is directed at Dex who said he was fine with DrWilgy not claiming.

Up until he was about to be lynched, same as LoRab. I'm saying its understandable why an anti-Cavil cylon would choose to not declare.

[S~V~S]

Have you read his ISO before he came under fire and actually started playing the game? I hope you are not basing all of this on associative evidence, like the bolded above, as opposed to thread based evidence (Wilgy acting as sketchy as all hell). Now he is acting all indignant as if he were confirmed civilian, and you are saying you will suspect people for suspecting him?

I am inclined to trust you on this since this is very much something I do myself, but please keep the saber rattling down since you aren't defending someone who was acting like a model citizen.

I am not basing this on associative evidence. I was willing to vote Wilgy in the spirit of fostering civ cooperation before I decided to go all Cain mutiny instead. I am not defending Wilgy's playstyle. But after the lynch post, I saw that he was telling the truth.

Dex-My problem is that you are assuming that Wilgy is one of the good ones. Your reasons are vague and can't talk about it and asking people to trust you. This isn't good enough for me. I need to know why, outside of something you can't say, he's a good cylon. If I was a bad cylon, my tactic would be to try to convince everyone I'm good. I'd start acting like it by hunting people immediately to get the focus on others. Wilgy has been better since he claimed but he waited until the last minute to do so. We are lucky this interference in the lynch turned out the way it did and not the way it would have in the Nero/LoRab situation. I don't know the lore like the rest of you. My play is based on scumhunting like I always do. Like I said, I'm willing to go along with their being non-Cavil cylons and leaving them alone, but I don't know if Wilgy is one of those or one of the Cavil ones and if he's one of the Cavil ones, I want him gone.

I get that Silver. I am only assuming that Wilgy is one of the good ones in the same sense I was assuming LC was Cain. The evidence is in-thread. I understand that you can't just take my word for it and that not being able to be specific about it is really unsatisfactory. You've got to go by your gut.

Fine, you believe he is telling the truth, for mystery reasons you can't share. I get it, and I am willing to trust you. That is not my problem.

My problem is you trying to imply that other people finding him suspicious BEFORE THE LYNCH without benefit of your mystery reason are themselves suspicious. Do you see the distinction I am making?

@Wilgy, I made one or two posts about it, but for me it was your entire game. You seemed disinterested and uninvolved UNTIL you were being lynched. While I can't expect civ Wilgy to be the civ Wilgy from Recruitment in every game, I can expect to see flashes of that guy. I saw no flashes. So my interpretation of you as sketchy is based more on what didn't happen than on what did happen, if that makes sense.

[Matt]

Yo! Long weekend, I'm super behind, but I have a few days off in a row so will be doing a catch up later today.

I know you've all severely missed me.

[Dex]

My problem is you trying to imply that other people finding him suspicious BEFORE THE LYNCH without benefit of your mystery reason are themselves suspicious. Do you see the distinction I am making?.

I do. I'm sorry. To be clear, I myself was suspicious of him before the lynch and was almost voting for him myself. I have no problem with people gunning for him before the lynch. I understand why people were suspecting him based on his game play. But post-lynch, the BTSC cylons now know he is a cylon and know he isn't one of them, same as LoRab and Epi.

[Ricochet]

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Still playing the same card you did with LoRab. There's only one possible civ-friendly role left, what are the odds that it's Wilgy, best to just kill him.

I'd interject that the concept of Wilgy claim Caprica Six would arise "for no reason" or "all of a sudden", because there are not many original Cylon numbers we could infer to be non-baddie aligned. Maybe Leoben for being linked with Starbuck after a while? That's about it, though. So, with LoRab flipping Anna, who else to take into consideration but a Cylon such as Caprica Six?

Or he could be a bad cylon lying? Let's do the math. How many bad cylons (not Capricia Six) are left compared to the one Capricia Six? The odds are much higher that he's not Six. And that's even if we assume Six isn't bad. We don't know that. Literally every cylon who gets caught being a cylon is going to claim being six. They can't all be six. It's impossible. He's NOT six.

I find you both asking me sort of the same thing, so here is me pointing at:

If the Final Five have not arisen, I don't know how to treat Wilgy's claim, it's basically the same "I'm on the good side" speech that LoRab served us - and her flip turned to be an arguably ambiguous Cylon character, after all; then again, any outed Cylon could basically feed us this speech, in case there are still some left among non-claimers. I want more from Wilgy. I hope from more from Wilgy, if he's truthful, because LoRab's tactic ("I'm good and that's that") was not enough to earn her any clemency. I still recall baddie Wilgy being more faux-involved than this, but just well he could have chosen to jest and fluff this time around, so

If the Final Five have arisen and the pool of Cylons just got bigger, then I really don't know how to treat Wilgy's claim. Only Anna and Simon have been eliminated, so we might be looking at 5 original numbers left (with still, say, two debatable names: Leoben and Caprica) and 5 Final Five added, of which we have no idea if they'll change heart or not. Murky as hell

To sum it up:

If there is just one potential good Cylon left, I agree that odds are narrow for Wilgy. Then again, so they were for LoRab as well! Literally same situation.

If Final Five are activated, Wilgy claiming he's on the good side places him in a larger pool, doesn't it.

[Ricochet]

The President passed a law, she did not pass a "plan". If you're telling me that the PLAN of the President was to have everyone circumvent the law and push for a total extinguish of the law's amnesty effects, you are extrapolating a bit wildly, I'd say. Nevertheless, yet again, I was under the impulse of the law having value in outing Cylons, as was shown in making LoRab cave. Frankly, it made Wilgy cave as well, it seems, which this time also had a more agreeable consequence (Cain's death).

OK, but I'm not talking about the President's law, I'm talking about Marmot's plan.

Oh, my bad. It still interefered with my view of the Law working towards Cylon outings.

Anyway, I stick by what I said. I still find it a bit odd to say that civs gain an "advantage". At the very best (and I think even LC mentioned this), they eliminate a disadvantage. Then, status quo of normal lynch would resume and the civs would have the same chances to lynch baddies as they did before the amnesty law was passed.

And you're unwilling to eliminate a disadvantage and return to the status quo because..?

I need to see it fulfilled, to believe any return to status quo was achieved.

Not what I meant. In light of an incomplete amnesty cleanup, baddies could "blend" by claiming within the pack of claimers and, given the controversy in this matter, leave civilians who (for various reason) may oppose the claiming plan to be eyeballed in the aftermath.

Except that there are no good reasons for human civs to oppose the claiming plan.

Never said "good" reasons. I said reasons, and various ones. Mine is that, if I claim simply to be a good sport, and then the field of claimers remains incomplete, I will have accomplished nothing. Some baddies could still, after all, lurk in there. How do I have control anymore over that? How does me claiming help that situation. Then again, me claiming and then assuming that the field of non-claimers are baddies isn't a good angle either, because [see: Witchhunt; Paranoia].

No sir, I am last off this non-claim boat.

I was also very clear what a "witchhunt" in this situation might be. If claimlist remains incomplete, there is no fundamental way to ascertain that all non-claimers must be bad. If you'll push for an agenda to blindly purge all non-claimers, you'd be basically conducting what I called witchhunt.

There's a damn good chance, however, that non-claimers must be cylon. There are witches. They are bad. They are hiding.

I'm fine with Epi, LoRab, and Wilgy not claiming. It's the rest of you that concern me.

There's a chance. You convert that into a speech about it being a good chance, you convert that into a speech about it being a sure chance, you convert that into a lynch mentality and a lynch direction throughout the game, you are forming a pitchfork club, nothing less, nothing more.

Two of those three names make no sense, because LoRab and Wilgy have claimed. To save their asses. Wut.

For more proof, just check Matt's posts during Day Five. As soon as the non-claimer list shortened to a number that could still be reasonably associated with a baddie team (say 6...7), he went on "let's show our pitchforks at these, baddies surely must be there" mode.

We need to put pressure on them. Do I think they're all "bad" ? No. Do I think Cavil and/or other bad cylons are hiding in this bunch? Absolutely.

Matt's right.

No fraks given.

[Ricochet]

Also, I don't know what Matt knows you are talking about.

Oh, he does. Trust me. He's playing dumb now but he let it slip earlier. He knows exactly why I thought what I did about LC. The fact that it didn't bring him to think the same says a lot about Matt.

I don't know. Such information is useless to me. Integrate it into the open game, if you can. (Semi-)closed setups and "X and Y play the 'you-know-something-I-know-you-do' game" are like mixing alcohol with pills for me.

[Ricochet]

Wilgy has already claimed though.

This is directed at Dex who said he was fine with DrWilgy not claiming.

Up until he was about to be lynched, same as LoRab. I'm saying its understandable why an anti-Cavil cylon would choose to not declare.

You endorse the plan for everyone to claim and yet would be fine with non-baddie Cylons not claiming? And pick on me for not endorsing the plan?

[Ricochet]

I am utterly confused by what Dex and/or Obscure are playing at and have knowledge of. I blaim it on the semi-closed setup. I mean, fark, it wasn't that hard to pick up on what players were hinting at in games like Biblical or Recruitement or Watchmen. But this is just claimeroo/hinteroo/I-know-something-that-you-don't-do maelstrom.

If anyone can clarify, without fear of the Host burning their fingers for writing so, please do. Otherwise, I suddenly feel the need to shut my brain off.

[Ricochet]

EBWOP because forgot basic vocabulary for a sec there

I am utterly confused by what Dex and/or Obscure are playing at and have knowledge of. I blame* it on the semi-closed setup. I mean, frak, it wasn't that hard to pick up on what players were hinting at in games like Biblical or Recruitement or Watchmen. But this is just claimeroo/hinteroo/I-know-something-that-you-don't-do maelstrom.

If anyone can clarify, without fear of the Host burning their fingers for writing so, please do. Otherwise, I suddenly feel the need to shut my brain off.

[DrWilgy]

[quote=SVS"]@Wilgy, I made one or two posts about it, but for me it was your entire game. You seemed disinterested and uninvolved UNTIL you were being lynched. While I can't expect civ Wilgy to be the civ Wilgy from Recruitment in every game, I can expect to see flashes of that guy. I saw no flashes. So my interpretation of you as sketchy is based more on what didn't happen than on what did happen, if that makes sense.
Skip softly, [/quote]
SVS this is the second time you used this mentality to justify my scumdoodlin in your head. I don't play the same in every game. I go out of my way to do the opposite. If you want to lynch me for being a lazy player that's fine and I have no qualms, but lynching me for meta reasons is not how you would catch me if I was scum.

SVS, now that I've gotten off my ass, mind looking at what I've contributed and discussing it with me?

[DrWilgy]

Fixed

@Wilgy, I made one or two posts about it, but for me it was your entire game. You seemed disinterested and uninvolved UNTIL you were being lynched. While I can't expect civ Wilgy to be the civ Wilgy from Recruitment in every game, I can expect to see flashes of that guy. I saw no flashes. So my interpretation of you as sketchy is based more on what didn't happen than on what did happen, if that makes sense.

SVS this is the second time you used this mentality to justify my scumdoodlin in your head. I don't play the same in every game. I go out of my way to do the opposite. If you want to lynch me for being a lazy player that's fine and I have no qualms, but lynching me for meta reasons is not how you would catch me if I was scum.

SVS, now that I've gotten off my ass, mind looking at what I've contributed and discussing it with me?

[S~V~S]

I think it is a valid reasoning, even if you do not. Even in games where you are using alternative playstyles, you still show up and tend to be somewhat of a thread leader rather than otherwise. It seems to me that you were wallflowering to me My reasoning is my reasoning, and I am sorry it displeases you, but it works for me.

And even having read every post you made up until you started taking votes just this weekend, I don't recall a single opinion you have held.

I have also said that I am going to take Dex' word for whatever he saw, but I am also not going to apologize for or backpedal from how I felt before the lynch. So can you please dial back the aggression a tad?

[S~V~S]

Just a quick question, though; do you know to what Dex was referring when he said he saw something in your posts? If you addressed this already, I am sorry, I missed it. I have a few ideas what it could be, and I was going to go look for it tonight when I am not at work.

[S~V~S]

EBWOP, I am not asking you to say it, I am just looking for yes or no.

[DrWilgy]

I think it is a valid reasoning, even if you do not. Even in games where you are using alternative playstyles, you still show up and tend to be somewhat of a thread leader rather than otherwise. It seems to me that you were wallflowering to me My reasoning is my reasoning, and I am sorry it displeases you, but it works for me.

And even having read every post you made up until you started taking votes just this weekend, I don't recall a single opinion you have held.

I have also said that I am going to take Dex' word for whatever he saw, but I am also not going to apologize for or backpedal from how I felt before the lynch. So can you please dial back the aggression a tad?

Aggression? I don't mean to be aggro (sorry if it seemed that way).

A Wilgy cheatsheet:
Strongest opinions, Sig, BR, and Sokoth placed a vote on me after I stated that I was a toaster. This makes little to no civ sense considering their vote would be negated. Why use your strongest power as a civ, your vote, in a position where it wouldn't count.

Strong opinion, Sig's reaction to me taking his side against Epi vs me voting for him on behalf of Scotty was not what I expect out of a civillian Sig.

Medium opinion, OA and Silver are not on the same team. I believe they have been working together now for 3 cycles rather strongly. I don't think Mafia would allow for both of them to still be alive if they were on the same team.

Weak opinion, those defending me are likely civilian. Mafia have nothing to gain out of defending me since i'll flip cylon anyways + at the rate we are going a lynch on cylon Wilgy will probably be easy.

Things I'm looking for: BR and Silver's feedback regarding the events of last night and the content I created. Also, any opinions regarding my thoughts on Sig.

Linki - Not that I would no sadly. If he's soul reading me as civilian I appreciate it, that and the above opinions are all I got.

[S~V~S]

Thanks, and yeah I knew what you have had opinions on since you started taking suspish, lol.

Based on what he said, I think there is primarily one topic to which his insight may have applied. So I will look for it when I get home. Had you known what he meant it might have made it easier to find since that might imply you intentionally said it for emphasis.

[DrWilgy]

Thanks, and yeah I knew what you have had opinions on since you started taking suspish, lol.

Based on what he said, I think there is primarily one topic to which his insight may have applied. So I will look for it when I get home. Had you known what he meant it might have made it easier to find since that might imply you intentionally said it for emphasis.

Does it involve a coffee selling soul sucking store?

[Silverwolf]

Medium opinion, OA and Silver are not on the same team. I believe they have been working together now for 3 cycles rather strongly. I don't think Mafia would allow for both of them to still be alive if they were on the same team.

You seem to forget that there's a missing nightkill. Don't assume they didn't already try.

[Silverwolf]

I think it is a valid reasoning, even if you do not. Even in games where you are using alternative playstyles, you still show up and tend to be somewhat of a thread leader rather than otherwise. It seems to me that you were wallflowering to me My reasoning is my reasoning, and I am sorry it displeases you, but it works for me.

And even having read every post you made up until you started taking votes just this weekend, I don't recall a single opinion you have held.

I have also said that I am going to take Dex' word for whatever he saw, but I am also not going to apologize for or backpedal from how I felt before the lynch. So can you please dial back the aggression a tad?

Aggression? I don't mean to be aggro (sorry if it seemed that way).

A Wilgy cheatsheet:
Strongest opinions, Sig, BR, and Sokoth placed a vote on me after I stated that I was a toaster. This makes little to no civ sense considering their vote would be negated. Why use your strongest power as a civ, your vote, in a position where it wouldn't count.

Strong opinion, Sig's reaction to me taking his side against Epi vs me voting for him on behalf of Scotty was not what I expect out of a civillian Sig.

Medium opinion, OA and Silver are not on the same team. I believe they have been working together now for 3 cycles rather strongly. I don't think Mafia would allow for both of them to still be alive if they were on the same team.

Weak opinion, those defending me are likely civilian. Mafia have nothing to gain out of defending me since i'll flip cylon anyways + at the rate we are going a lynch on cylon Wilgy will probably be easy.

Things I'm looking for: BR and Silver's feedback regarding the events of last night and the content I created. Also, any opinions regarding my thoughts on Sig.

Linki - Not that I would no sadly. If he's soul reading me as civilian I appreciate it, that and the above opinions are all I got.

I agree sig's reaction to your claim was bad. I'd be wiling to pressure sig. I'm not civ reading him by any means. Don't assume mafia wouldn't defend you right now. And don't assume civs that were going hard after you before wouldn't be doing so now as well.

I don't like how Black Rock and Sokoth came in here and placed a vote on you and peaced out with not much else to say after you already claimed. I would like for both of them to explain why they voted you after you claimed. It makes little sense and the better move would be to vote for someone else they suspected.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I guess my mindset at this moment is... I could claim. That would mean there's an actual chance for a baddie lynch instead of me, but then I'd just get killed tomorrow.

My win condition is probably negated anyways, so all I can do is help civs as best as possible before I go.


What would help out the most at this point though... Idk. I could bite the bullet, that way everyone can stop worrying about reading me, and the game can progress. I could also claim and potentially get rid of Cavil (whatever those chances may be).

Linki - Hmm? What Daisy. I didn't understand that fully.

Linki @ Dex - then we will just have to go through this again tomorrow.

This kind of reminds me of myself (town) in the 2015 Syndicate champs game when I was immune to one lynch and I knew that afterword people would still waste their time and energy talking about lynching me again.

DrWilgy, please bring the fire. Don't settle for less than your best. Go get 'em tiger. Rock 'em young buck.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy has been weird. So I voted for him.

Our good friend sig, the man who is mislynched more than anyone else, who has a keen personal understanding of how civilians can be smeared and taken advantage of, has contributed to the attempted lynch of DrWilgy on Day 5 because he "has been weird".

[a2thezebra]

Wilgy has been weird. So I voted for him.

Our good friend sig, the man who is mislynched more than anyone else, who has a keen personal understanding of how civilians can be smeared and taken advantage of, has contributed to the attempted lynch of DrWilgy on Day 5 because he "has been weird".

I'm telling you, even if it's just my gut I am certain sig is bad this game. Why? He's avoided suspicion fairly well to a point.

[Marmot]

JaggedJimmyJay will remain on my suspect list while he has fewer posts than I do.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JaggedJimmyJay will remain on my suspect list while he has fewer posts than I do.

It's not that I have a small number of posts. It's that you have a huge number of posts. What's gotten into you, Marmot?

[a2thezebra]

JaggedJimmyJay will remain on my suspect list while he has fewer posts than I do.

It's not that I have a small number of posts. It's that you have a huge number of posts. What's gotten into you, Marmot?

Good question...

[DrWilgy]

Spoiler: show

I think it is a valid reasoning, even if you do not. Even in games where you are using alternative playstyles, you still show up and tend to be somewhat of a thread leader rather than otherwise. It seems to me that you were wallflowering to me My reasoning is my reasoning, and I am sorry it displeases you, but it works for me.

And even having read every post you made up until you started taking votes just this weekend, I don't recall a single opinion you have held.

I have also said that I am going to take Dex' word for whatever he saw, but I am also not going to apologize for or backpedal from how I felt before the lynch. So can you please dial back the aggression a tad?

Aggression? I don't mean to be aggro (sorry if it seemed that way).

A Wilgy cheatsheet:
Strongest opinions, Sig, BR, and Sokoth placed a vote on me after I stated that I was a toaster. This makes little to no civ sense considering their vote would be negated. Why use your strongest power as a civ, your vote, in a position where it wouldn't count.

Strong opinion, Sig's reaction to me taking his side against Epi vs me voting for him on behalf of Scotty was not what I expect out of a civillian Sig.

Medium opinion, OA and Silver are not on the same team. I believe they have been working together now for 3 cycles rather strongly. I don't think Mafia would allow for both of them to still be alive if they were on the same team.

Weak opinion, those defending me are likely civilian. Mafia have nothing to gain out of defending me since i'll flip cylon anyways + at the rate we are going a lynch on cylon Wilgy will probably be easy.

Things I'm looking for: BR and Silver's feedback regarding the events of last night and the content I created. Also, any opinions regarding my thoughts on Sig.

Linki - Not that I would no sadly. If he's soul reading me as civilian I appreciate it, that and the above opinions are all I got.

I agree sig's reaction to your claim was bad. I'd be wiling to pressure sig. I'm not civ reading him by any means. Don't assume mafia wouldn't defend you right now. And don't assume civs that were going hard after you before wouldn't be doing so now as well.

I don't like how Black Rock and Sokoth came in here and placed a vote on you and peaced out with not much else to say after you already claimed. I would like for both of them to explain why they voted you after you claimed. It makes little sense and the better move would be to vote for someone else they suspected.

So assuming that I am civillian, but a cylon, what would mafia gain from defending me since alignment isn't revealed? I honestly can only see 1 or 2 players having reaction to my death other than mafia kinda saying "woohoo" there goes another one.

Hey Zeebs, can I get a cheatsheet on your opinions currently?

[a2thezebra]

A cheatsheet? Sure. I'll mail it to ya.

[Silverwolf]

So assuming that I am civillian, but a cylon, what would mafia gain from defending me since alignment isn't revealed? I honestly can only see 1 or 2 players having reaction to my death other than mafia kinda saying "woohoo" there goes another one.

Civ cred, although Dex seems pretty genuine and I can understand civ reading him for it.

[G-Man]

A lot of intriguing conversation going on today. If Golden the Coward wasn't so secretive we'd know more about factions and failed NK attempts. I blame him.

I'm working on updated technicolors. I'll post them during tonight's hockey game.

[Glorfindel]

Have Gaius search me and see if I'm a Cylon. That would be a waste of a search, honestly, for I'm not Cylon - nor mafia Civ, if there is in fact such a thing, and if you want public proof of that just lynch me.

I was willing to take the chance and will dutifully accept and endure any public shaming on post-game or if a lynch reveals that Wilgy is mafia, but I believe he could be be a civ-aligned Caprica Six.

In any case, the results of today's lynch are not as bad as they could have been.

Let me just clarify in my own mind what happened here this afternoon, my friend... You have (since the appearance of the late Admiral Cain) been one of the most outspoken proponents of the theory that all our Cylon friends need to throw away what had been granted to them by law (under the Cylon Amnesty Act). You have held this view because (if I understand you correctly) you hold the view that the act of claiming and gaining amnesty may be used by Cylons to the detriment of the Town (in relevant circumstances where a Cylon is the lead wagon). Have I interpreted your reasoning correctly?

Because that seems disturbingly inconsistent with your actions this afternoon in assisting a Cylon to do precisely what you claim you've been fighting so hard to avoid I agree that the result was a good one for us but I think we were just extremely lucky there.

I had a very good ferling that Long Con was Cain - other people in this thread thought this too. Wilgy did a complete 360 and acted like an actual civ for a moment; hence why I thought that, if he was a good cylon, then it wouldn't be much of a bad idea to let him live and kill Cain.

We can lynch him whenever you want if you still doubt his alignment, though, and I still want everyone to claim. Let's just see if mafia will NK him or not. If they do, he's civ.

Maths has never been my strong suit but doesn't this (as bolded) mean that he ended up facing the direction as he started? So you're saying that you acted deliberately against the view you claimed to have held (and pursued with such vigor) since Cain arrived on the scene and declared martial law on a hunch that LC was Cain? I suspect that is one hell of a gamble - can you elaborate what drove you to the conclusion that LC was Cain?

[Epignosis]

You can say it looks however you like. I definitely human and I am not mafia. Additionally, I believe that there is a high likelihood that win cons are fluid for various roles based on events and time in the game. Yep those two may have a win con that might be conducive with the humans, but can you say based on their earlier actions in the series that they are civilian aligned? I can't. I'm not inclined to trust them easily. I would trust Athena right now, and that is about it. This game is designed with a lot of gray area I think. Anyway Wilgy has made a request and I'll look into it, if not tonight then tomorrow. I don't feel anymore trusting of sig than others do, so we will see if it changes my mind about who to give my vote to next.

It's a mistake to limit our consideration of cylon alignment to their behavior in the show alone; there's also game balance to consider. Back before I subbed in 3J established that 20:8:1 was hardly balanced. Then people grudingly accepted that maybe Athena was civ friendly; is 21:7:1 all that different? What number of BTSC cylons do we find reasonable? We shouldn't be looking at Leoben, say, in terms of "At this point in the show he was truly evil, but at that point in the show he was anti-Cavil, so who knows?" We should be looking at Leoben in terms of how many non-BTSC cylons do we think there are, and, given that number, who, according to the lore might they be?

Again, in my opinion, the cylon rebellion simply hands us the answer. Four for Cavil's BTSC faction (three remain) and three or four for the anti-Cavil faction (depending on whether Caprica 6 is an Indy or not). Given the rez-ship advantage and the x-factor of the Final Five, this sounds about right to me.

We've been uncannily good at uncovering non-BTSC cylons. Epi right off the bat, then LoRab, now Wilgy. And so soon as we do, the BTSC cylons pile on. We have to stop treating anti-Cavil cylons as second class civs. Who knows what LoRabs power was? Maybe we are sorely hampered without it.

I'm looking at players who kept pushing for an Epi lynch even after he flipped Athena. I'm really looking at players who just complacently gave in to martial law - "Well, Epi might be good, LoRab might be good, but all cylons must die, whaddya gonna do?" I'm looking at players who jumped at the LoRab bandwagon, and I'll be looking at players pushing hard for Wilgy.

After doing an ISO on you, Daisy, I see that you do not fit this criteria. So I'll just ask you to trust me on Wilgy.

Is there grounds for assuming Cavil has BTSC?

[a2thezebra]

[Dex]

Is there grounds for assuming Cavil has BTSC?

Not outside of standard mafia game setup, I guess not.