RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Quin]

[Golden]

@Quin voters who aren't 3J: In the event that Quin is civ, would you be open to a 3J lynch Day 3?

Probably not. As I've noted, quite independently of my Quin read, I think there is ample evidence that points to Jay being town. I think the case against Jay is very poor.

[Golden]

No, not whoops.

You really don't get the PoE thing. You really don't get playing the odds.

Quin was the right lynch 100% of the time. If he wasn't lynched today, he would have been tomorrow.

No oops... what Quin flipped was not relevant to my decision to vote him. Finding out what he would flip was more important.

Now that I see his flip.. I doubt I'll be voting Jay tomorrow. I do, however, think it much more likely that YOU are bad.

[Golden]

And besides that, I'm not willing to assume quin isn't bad yet.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't anticipate a flip reversal. The fist time it happened just under 6 hours after the original flip, so if that means something then we should have a clearer picture within the hour.

[G-Man]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

lol

this guy

[Quin]

This is exciting!

[DrWilgy]

Golden is bad with inh, otherwise rico is bad.

[G-Man]

Polls are inside spoiler tags for those using phones.

DAY 0

Spoiler: show

DAY 1

Spoiler: show

DAY 2

Spoiler: show

DAY 3

Spoiler: show

DAY 4

Spoiler: show

[Ricochet]

No, not whoops.

You really don't get the PoE thing. You really don't get playing the odds.

Quin was the right lynch 100% of the time. If he wasn't lynched today, he would have been tomorrow.

No oops... what Quin flipped was not relevant to my decision to vote him. Finding out what he would flip was more important.

Now that I see his flip.. I doubt I'll be voting Jay tomorrow. I do, however, think it much more likely that YOU are bad.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Golden is bad with inh, otherwise rico is bad.

A couple fun questions for DrWilgy:

1.) Why is Wilgy 2.0 saying relevant things while Wilgy 1.0 said random things?

2.) What do you see in Golden and INH that looks like coordination?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

[G-Man]

A Polls thread has been added.

Quin really was ERIC TRUMP. Now he's replacing Beck.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hello Quin.

[Quin]

Hey bitches, remember me?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

[Quin]

Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

You ready for round two?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

You ready for round two?

Well now that you're here and we're not approaching either bed time or a tally deadline, I might bother to respond to your ISO. If you have an open enough mind to read what I say, then I'll do it. So give it to me straight, Quin: would I be wasting my time? I don't have all day man. I don't have all damned day. I have a life to lead.

[Quin]

Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

You ready for round two?

Well now that you're here and we're not approaching either bed time or a tally deadline, I might bother to respond to your ISO. If you have an open enough mind to read what I say, then I'll do it. So give it to me straight, Quin: would I be wasting my time? I don't have all day man. I don't have all damned day. I have a life to lead.

Responding to my accusations is not pointless.

[Quin]

Of course, we're talking about Quin 1.0, not Quin 2.0 Because I am not Quin 1.0, I am Quin 2.0. Don't forget that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Responding to my accusations is not pointless.

Well I hope you understand why town!me wouldn't think it's the best way to use my time under the circumstances on Day 2. It came too late man. I'll respond now.

linki: I know you're a different Quin, but the brain transplant means you're susceptible to the same mindset. Are there immediate differences you might describe now that you're in a new body?

[Golden]

Of course, we're talking about Quin 1.0, not Quin 2.0 Because I am not Quin 1.0, I am Quin 2.0. Don't forget that.

Ps happy to have Quin 2.0.

[Quin]

Responding to my accusations is not pointless.

Well I hope you understand why town!me wouldn't think it's the best way to use my time under the circumstances on Day 2. It came too late man. I'll respond now.

linki: I know you're a different Quin, but the brain transplant means you're susceptible to the same mindset. Are there immediate differences you might describe now that you're in a new body?

I half-do. I would have appreciated at least more than a flat out 'No', because it appeared as though you just wanted to avoid a potentially incriminating conversation.

My opinions are exactly the same. I didn't expect to be replaced until pretty much right before I was actually subbed in, so I'm not caught up. What I'm most interested in pursuing now is the actions and reactions post-Quin1.0 lynch.

I do recall a bunch of Beck naysayers, which means I'll likely be having a repeat of yesterday, but hopefully the utter fail that was Quin 1.0's lynch will make them think twice about their reasons for voting Quin 2.0.

[Ricochet]

Hey Rico, should be PoE lynch Quin twice?

Explain why this strategy isn't viable. Tell me the fatal flaw. Try.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

He's already got his defence here ready, but reading of any kind based on emoticon usage is...a horrible case. My emoticon usage has shit all to do with my alignment and everything to do with my emotions at the time. Couple that with this discussion is ongoing with marmot who I don't feel fantastic about sets off alarm bells.

I agree that a case based around emoticons is not a strong one. I don't believe that's the relevant detail though -- I'm not assessing the strength of Marmot's post, I'm assessing the honesty of Marmot's post. I made a number of dubious gut reads in that early stage because that's how I play Mafia. This was pretty much the same as me giving you a positive nod for using caps lock. Those were real reads. They weren't reads I'd invest myself immensely in, but they were real. Reads are stupid early in a game, and I embrace that. I state my stupid reads.

Golden used the 'just because it's easy doesn't make it bad' defence when I accused him of taking the easy route when coming up with potential teammates. I know you read it, but you didn't seem interested in that. Also, on what planet do townies lie more easily?

Is there a reason I should have been interested in that? I agree with Golden's logic. Whether townies lie more than baddies can be debated; I think it depends upon how one defines "lie" in that context. It is true that baddies provide a number of false reads, all of which can be called "lies". They're implicit in the nature of the game though. I was referring to lies which doesn't necessarily have to exist for Mafia to work -- on that front I certainly lie more as a townie than as a baddie. I fake night actions, I fake confident reads, I fling the nastiest sort of poop without provocation -- these are all reactionary tactics that I have tried in my town skin. I don't think I'm alone in that style.

You don't get immunity from having your game criticised just because the person civ-read you once. Wasn't it you who said this:

Spoiler: show

My objective is to generate a game thread which promotes the highest-possible chance of facilitating strong reads. I change my mind more than anyone I know for this reason -- the only read that matters is the one that accompanies a final vote. Everything else is a part of the process of arriving at that final vote.

It seems contradictory that you'd act so aggressively to someone who's just trying to do the same thing you do.

I don't think INH was ever doing that. His griping about my play while calling me his strongest town read could serve him no real purpose. From the perspective of a town INH, that should be viewed as a pointless effort, and I said as much. I was probably acting as much on annoyance as relevant Mafia pursuit at that point because INH wouldn't shut the hell up about it. I have been doing things my way for a long time, and when someone complains about it without offering any actual alternative it's really annoying.

This is a meta read. Curious he looked for a game in which he was bad and didn't think to back it up with a game where he was civ. For the record, here's a civ INH in Triskaedekaphobia also not taking Day 1 accusations seriously. Or are you segmenting the two because the former seems 'funnier'?

That was the point. I had already said earlier in the game that this was behavior associated with civilian INH. I went looking for a contrary example to determine if that prior read was inspired by an illogical mindset -- and I determined it was. So I ceased to give him credit for it.

He's on both sides of the fence on a Scotty lynch.

I was never enthusiastic about the Scotty lynch. Until the very end of Day 1, I was never enthusiastic about stopping it either. It just didn't inspire me. Oh well.

I didn't like this interaction then and I don't now. 3J has always been for alternatives, and even if he suggests that he doesn't support mine because he doesn't agree with it, I think it's suspicious that he'd try and discredit my vote by saying it had no utility, even with the case I had behind it.

Sloonei was never going to be lynched on Day 1, and it doesn't take a superpower of projection to say that. I thought you opted to camp your vote in a place where it had close to no chance of mattering, and I said so. That this happened while other suspects were garnering tally attention was the problem for me. I've seen baddies do that shit and I didn't like it when you did it.

I'd go so far as to say Sloonei was the reason Scotty was lynched. You haven't made a single hint towards your thinking that he could have been bussed by Sloonei, so I see how you could think that Sloonei was suspicious here, whether he actually voted Scotty or not.

Incorrect.

Well I'm going to need to reprocess everything in light of that.

Mmhm. I feel much better about sloonei now.

I might actually feel worse.

I don't know, I'm going to try to block it all out until I have time to reassess objectively.

This is good, I also have doubts about you. You were opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started. You pounced on INH with me as soon as the alternative arose. Your other big suspect has been leetic, who has three posts which are largely unsubstantial.

If my goal is to save my partner, I never need your INH CFD. I stay on leetic and I push that case.

I wasn't "opposed to the Scotty wagon from the moment it started". At one point I even said I was content with it. I didn't take a harder stance against it until the EOD sequence during which you did the same thing. And props to Scotty, I'm a boob. I shouldn't have done that. But shit happens.

The reason my immediate reaction to the new reveal features new doubt about you is the pre-flip town projection Beck was referring to. I didn't care about it at when I really believed Scotty was town, but it has new meaning when he appears town but actually isn't. The same CFD attempt I took part in was your own creation. With a little time to think about it though I am not inclined to attack you for this. The CFD was always relatively unlikely to come to fruition, and I don't know that you'd be so sloppy as to peel away from your team mate at the last minute for a hail mary CFD.

You may or may not agree with my logic, but I provided it.

Why does marmot deserve civ cred here? I don't really get your leetic thing here but I have nothing bad to say about it.

Everything from about this point here that stands out to me is that 3J is crumbing his intention to vote for me, but he's standing back and saying 'hey, I get it! I just want to gather more information!'

I've already talked about that Marmot vote repeatedly. Just go find it.

I was never "crumbing my intention to vote for you". I didn't place my vote because I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. The only thing from you that I really wanted to hear was your read on Golden, and I didn't take a stance until you provided that read. If you had been more antagonistic against Golden I probably wouldn't have voted for you. There's no way for you to know I'm telling the truth here, but that's what it is.

~~~ Insert spoiler-screwed recreation of my own Quin/Scotty interaction analysis. I don't want to dig through this HTML mess to find points, so if you made any here that you want to hear about just say so.~~~

And then there's this little number.

Spoiler: show

At this point Quin, I'm not certain how far defending yourself can realistically take you. Whether you end up lynched or not, the best thing for the town faction would be for you to focus purely on hunting for baddies and leaving us with a legacy. If it's good enough shit, the votes might evaporate anyway. I say this mostly because it's what I'd most like to see; I've already seen the defenses and I can conjure them before they are shown to me. Give me the suspects.

The choice is yours obviously.

Clearly the scumhunting I have been doing isn't good enough for him. He's going on about legacies, which also raises alarms. Just because I'm dead doesn't mean my scumhunting is right. I don't trust this, I think this is a massive discredit job and a way to try and shut me up.

I did the exact opposite of "try to shut you up". I did the exact opposite of "discredit" you. I wanted you to use your time wisely. You clearly disagreed about how time is used wisely. I gave you the advice that I later took myself: I didn't waste my time defending myself against your mega-ISO and instead focused on what was important to the town faction. You don't have to agree with the mindset, but it's one I've promoted in nearly every town game I've played since about 2013.

And then this. It just furthers my opinion that he's preparing for me to get all my posts out so that he can fake a now-informed vote. He intended to vote for me long ago, he just wants to look good doing it.

The Golden read. What I was looking for was some iteration of "I suspect Golden". I didn't get it, I didn't buy it, I thought you were bad. I was wrong. Shit happens.

If I get lynched, Quin 1.0 will know the feeling.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thought so.

[Sloonei]

Sorry about the lynch, Quin. Blame Scotty.

Welcome back, Quin. Are you Scotty's teammate?

[Quin]

Sorry about the lynch, Quin. Blame Scotty.

Welcome back, Quin. Are you Scotty's teammate?

Do I make a joke? No, llama tried to lynch me for that in Turf Wars. I could say 'no' plainly, but that's not my style. I could lie and say yes, but you'd call my bluff. What to do..

How do you feel about Jay?

[Quin]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

Spoiler: marmot looks bad. How do you feel about him?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: marmot looks bad. How do you feel about him?

I don't think he looks bad.

This should be fun.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

I'd recommend shedding the "I already think he's bad and I want people to vote for him" bias that you willed into the last one. Up to you.

[Golden]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

Spoiler: marmot looks bad. How do you feel about him?

I could see marmot being bad. Especially if INH is bad, because it makes sense marmot would look to push scotty over the edge if he is a seemer, rather than lose inh, when the pair of them were fighting on day 1.

I really find inh shifty. Yesterday he called my case on you good, but basically absolved himself from it just based on me being arrogant. I don't like when people use ad hominem in place of detective work. I'm going to take whatever tone I like if I think it might be effective, and actually even while I left my vote on Quin I thought the best point in his favour was his reasoning for giving me a town read.

He also literally ignored posts endeavouring to get him to put in rational thought while accusing others of trying to stop rational thought.

[Quin]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

I'd recommend shedding the "I already think he's bad and I want people to vote for him" bias that you willed into the last one. Up to you.

That is what I was doing. I didn't like going the 'I think he's bad so I'll only focus on that' route, but as you said, there was limited time, and if I did it as I normally did I would have been going forever.

[Quin]

3J I'll respond to that after my lynch analysis.

Spoiler: marmot looks bad. How do you feel about him?

I could see marmot being bad. Especially if INH is bad, because it makes sense marmot would look to push scotty over the edge if he is a seemer, rather than lose inh, when the pair of them were fighting on day 1.

I really find inh shifty. Yesterday he called my case on you good, but basically absolved himself from it just based on me being arrogant. I don't like when people use ad hominem in place of detective work. I'm going to take whatever tone I like if I think it might be effective, and actually even while I left my vote on Quin I thought the best point in his favour was his reasoning for giving me a town read.

He also literally ignored posts endeavouring to get him to put in rational thought while accusing others of trying to stop rational thought.

Would you be open to voting the marmot tomorrow to help you further your read on INH?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's perhaps a bit late to be making an emotion-driven read, but whatever. I thought this looked quite town:

It's Night 2, we've lynched one mafia and (maybe) one town. Inh, why are you so distraught?

He's right that despite the dreary atmosphere of the game, town is still in a very solid position. Instead of reveling in that as I think most baddies would, he questioned someone who was promoting it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd be quite open to an INH lynch. I'd be less enthusiastic about a Marmot lynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

[Sloonei]

Mr. JimmyJay, have you anything to say in response to this post?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Oh fine.

[Epignosis]

3J kissing ass now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

3J kissing ass now.

I can't believe you feel that way.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I said I'd be leaving, but REAL QUICK MINI JAY ISO
One thing that hasn't been sitting well with me is how Jay reacted to my initial brush up with Scotty. I went back to have a look, and while I was giving Scotty the heebeejeebies, Jay and Epi were going at it about whatever they were going at it about. The thread was the four of us, barking separately at each other for a little while until Scotty called for outside help. This was Jay's response:

Can someone else comment on my interaction with Sloonei? Am I missing something here? I'm getting the heebeejeebies right now

I'm not sure what you'd be missing. You both seem to suspect Quin, which I don't really agree or disagree with. He's had less significant a presence in this game than usual which I suppose isn't ideal. I'm not sure why Sloonei associated you two as team mates, so he could talk about that. Hey! Sloonei!

This post amounts to nothing. He's just summarizing the events as they happened and offering no thoughts of his own. Where's all the, like, analysis and stuff?

Scotty requested that someone else comment. I happened to be in the neighborhood as you said, and I commented. I didn't have a strong opinion of the drama developing between you and Scotty (which reflects in all the language I used to talk about it as the day progressed). I commented as he asked, and my commentary reflected my perspective. I cannot provide Generic JJJ Analysis of a discussion that I am not drawing meaningful reads from. You were getting a read from it, and it was the right read -- bully for you. I unfortunately did not follow that.

Not rocking the boat or ruffling any feathers. "You guys both look good, let's stop fighting!"

I don't rock boats or ruffle feathers in every post. I make reads and I state reads. I never told you to stop fighting, I just stated my perspective.

And then quickly change the subject.

I also never felt strongly about the leetic case, and that hurts Jay in my eyes. I can almost always get behind his early reads when he's town, or at least understand where he's coming from. But leetic just strikes me as an inactive player, and the post Jay kept referencing for his reason of suspicion did not strike me as something that was necessarily suspicious. It was confusing, for sure, but like I said here it seemed more like he was communicating something poorly or simply quoted the wrong post. It's not something I'd base my vote off of.

I understand he was Mr. 3 Posts and it's hard to feel great about voting that way. I didn't. I didn't feel great about Scotty either. The only Day 1 vote I placed that I felt inspired by was the one I ended on (INH). I thought leetic's post was suspicious beyond just being confusing, and I stated why I felt that way. It looked like an accusation that was pulled entirely out of his ass, and it came soon after Epignosis had started giving me shit. It smelled opportunistic.

And then Jay was very quick to hop from leetic to INH at the end of the day. While I maintain the INH vote had some merit yesterday, looking back it's hard to justify reading leetic's posts as more suspicious than Scotty's, and Jay never even entertained the thought of lynching Scotty, from what I can remember.

This is where you're projecting your own reads upon me. You were highly suspicious of Scotty and I was not. I felt worse about leetic than you did. There's nothing I can do about that. I can't win them all.

[Marmot]

Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

Mr. Quin feels and acts like a confirmed civ.

But I don't understand why he wants to lynch me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Your turn, Sloonei.

[Quin]

Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

Mr. Quin feels and acts like a confirmed civ.

But I don't understand why he wants to lynch me.

Your banner offends me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

[Quin]

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

Did their banners offend you too?

[Marmot]

Another emotion-driven read:

Quin has re-inserted himself into the game on a moment's notice with authority and aplomb. Nice look.

Mr. Quin feels and acts like a confirmed civ.

But I don't understand why he wants to lynch me.

Your banner offends me.

I get that a lot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd like someone who suspects me to theorize about why I killed either Boomslang or DrWilgy.

Did their banners offend you too?

I believe Wilgy's sig has a JJJ quote in it. I don't slaughter my beloved fans.