RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[Marmot]

Looks like I missed everyone. Well I'm off for the rest of the night. Catch y'all later.

[Scotty]

I'm here! Did I miss the election yet?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Any more bizarre Mafia xenophobia for me to read this morning?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It wasn't 'while' he was calling you his strongest at all. Things change. It's perfectly clear that by the time this conversation comes around he's starting to trust you less. I get that having your game criticised without being given an alternative is annoying, but I don't see how that's relevant here, because I'm not interpreting it as simple criticism.

One of us must not be clear on where INH stood at that point. I don't think he ever suspected me on Day 1. He has griped about the way I play in every game we've played together. He didn't actually turn against me until Day 2 after I'd tried to lynch him.

Where did you do this? I found the post were you drew associations between this game and Triskaidekaphobia, but that conversation was not about whether he took Day 1 suspicions seriously. It was about his opposition to your methods.

This is the point of hurling accusations. I don't have to believe in the accusation wholeheartedly, it only has to serve a productive purpose -- because now I town read you. This discussion just turned into the same one we had in Battlestar Galactica (I think?) and to a lesser extend in Triskaidekaphobia.

I was talking about his tendency to be critical of people who don't play like he plays on Day 1, which translates into discrediting suspicions derived on Day 1 via those methods he doesn't like. It is typical of his town self, and I wanted to find an example of his scum self to see how much the trend held.

I vote outside the main wagons all the time. If I'm extremely confident that someone is bad, I'm gonna vote for them. I didn't do it to skirt the sidelines, I fully intended to fight for that lynch, and I did.

You don't need to explain yourself. We already know Quin 1.0 was town and that your actions were honest. I had no way of knowing that though and I pursued the read the way I typically do. I tend to find solo votes for unlikely lynches to be suspicious. You felt Sloonei was a more viable lynch than I did. Okay.

Prove me wrong.

I do not know what this is doing here.

I'm confused. Am I correct in saying that your accusation was that I never expanded on why I initially suspected Sloonei more after the Scotty flip change?

That's what I interpreted the accusation to be. And the post I provided was the one in which I expanded on it.

You've put it down as being a 'hammer vote'. My question stands. He shouldn't have been given civ cred so loosely for jumping on the inevitable. Scotty's lynch was dead set.

It wasn't dead set at the very end. It was 4-3 in favor of Scotty over INH. Marmot had the power to vote INH and make it a 4-4 tie. He didn't. I don't think this is the only point working in his favor.

I don't believe you wanted a civ Quin 1.0 to scum read Golden. Your argument to suggest that civ reading him was a scum-tell was riddled with confirmation bias. Your argument is that 'if I don't think a guy is bad because he's confident that I am, I must be bad'

I didn't want you to just OMGUS. That's not what I'm saying. You in your Quin 1.0 body were worried that Scotty had tried to intentionally make you look bad in his posts, and Golden had spent the entire day phase promoting that exact thing. I didn't understand how you could possibly town read him given that. I was wrong.

Defending myself was a wise decision, and best for the town. I maintain that. I would much prefer to give you the tools to analyse how people reacted to my defence, who accepted it, who didn't, and give you a meaty lynch poll and thread than give you the reads I could have come up with which may or may not have been correct. Telling me that defending myself isn't realistic is most definitely an attempt to shut me up.

Ugh, no it wasn't. An attempt to shut you up would be "stop making posts, Quin". I was trying to re-orient your posts in a direction that'd prove more valuable in my opinion. You clearly don't agree with that opinion. Okay. You can't deny though that I took my own advice after you ISO'd me. It's my strategic preference. I was also still thinking you were bad, and getting you to produce clear reads/stances on other players would have been valuable information to data-mine if you had been. I always do that shit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think you need to explain to me exactly how this thing works because I do not see how a collective PoE cannot be prone to baddie manipulation.

I don't think Ricochet believes in the PoE concept at all, and he's pouting through the game in an effort to make Golden and I look like boobs or something.

You are right that baddies can manipulate a collective PoE. There isn't a single strategy in the Mafia universe which cannot be manipulated by baddies. This applies to every strategy ever imagined. Despite that inevitable shortcoming, this is a method which has a proven track record in small, vanilla-heavy games like Syndicate heists are. It isn't perfect, but it's been pretty damned solid in my experience.

It's actually the exact thing I've been trying to promote all over this website since I arrived here last May.

Experiment with trust. Don't be afraid of it.

State your town reads, not just your baddie reads. It helps us all with process of elimination.

Vote alongside people you trust when in doubt.

Don't pout around on your own pet suspects, stubbornness loses games.

This is shit I've been saying here for a year and a half (I know you haven't been here that long Quin). It's the same fucking philosophy. People must not have hated it, because they gave me the Best Civilian socky. So why is this suddenly a damned controversy when Golden returns from the Champs tournament working under the same methods? This is a general question to everyone here who is shitting on this strategy.

[Ricochet]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't demand that everyone plays this way. I'm not that arrogant.

The true arrogance is people throwing it out the window before they've even seen it tried for a full game.

[insertnamehere]

I think that PoE, and normal "hunt-the-baddies" have a lot in common.

Both rely on reads and assumptions.

The only difference is the dismissive attitude of PoE players, and the fact that lynching civilians is part of the PoE strategy.

I believe that's too risky for town in a small game with two possible night kills every night.

@Golden, I would love to see a list of the players accompanied by a description of why you think each individual person, except for me and one other player, is town.

I'm gonna try so fucking hard to make that above post the last damn thing I say about PoE's or game styles or whatever.

I believe I made my opinion on it clear. Golden and 3J have made their opinion clear.

It's up to people to decide who they want to go with.

I'm gonna focus on actually hunting baddies, and giving reads now, instead of indulging in some war of text walls over prosaic strategy that may or may not be relevant to the game at all.

I have no fuckin' idea what to make of Golden, and am just completely baffled at this point. I'm deeply unsure about his alignment, although my proposed lynch may actually shed some light on it.

My proposed Day 3 lynch is 3J.

Let "legitimate mafia" begin.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm gonna focus on actually hunting baddies, and giving reads now, instead of indulging in some war of text walls over prosaic strategy that may or may not be relevant to the game at all.

That much I can agree with. I'm sick of it too. I only keep babbling about it because at this point it seems important to the actual development of any read I have on you, Epignosis, and Ricochet.

[Ricochet]

I don't demand that everyone plays this way. I'm not that arrogant.

The true arrogance is people throwing it out the window before they've even seen it tried for a full game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll state the reasons I can think of to read each player as town (other than those I can't do so for). I'd welcome anyone who disagrees with any point made to state your disagreement. I acknowledge that I could be town reading the wrong person somewhere, and dialogue can help hash that out if so.

Beck/Quin 2.0 -- The way he returned to this game and immediately set to the task of sorting out his own Quin 1.0 lynch, and the players involved with both sides of that incident, reads quite town to me. I think it would be pretty difficult for someone in his shoes, having just been mislynched in an emotional and volatile day phase, to maintain or accelerate his contributory pace if he'd just drawn a mafia role in his second body. The transition feels seamless to me, which suggests the alignment transition was seamless.

Epignosis -- He didn't merely contribute to the Scotty lynch, he did so while pursuing a unique element of suspicion. He wasn't involved with the content that Sloonei and Golden among others found problematic, he was in his own bubble. That strikes me as both typical of a town Epignosis, and just being unlikely team mate behavior in general.

Golden -- Early in the game he was unable to participate fervently in the game, and in his sporadic appearances he theoretically ought to have had a lot of freedom to take whatever stances his whims decided. That he elected specifically to pursue the case against Scotty alongside Sloonei is a good look to me. I don't think he had to do that if he's bad.

insertnamehere -- Every argument I've had with him (and I've observed between he and Golden) is reminiscent of arguments we've already had in prior games where INH turned out to be town.

leetic -- Scotty joined my Day 1 vote against leetic in such a way that it appeared an opportunistic move against a low-content player.

Metalmarsh89 -- He had the opportunity to tie the Day 1 tally at 4-4 between INH and Scotty. He elected to vote for Scotty, effectively securing his lynch, despite having been given a big opening by Sloonei and I to do otherwise.

Ricochet -- His true effort level is low enough that I don't get the impression he has manipulative intent. Scotty engaged him with OT chatter that could have happened in a BTSC if they shared one.

Sloonei -- He had more direct influence upon the development of the Scotty wagon than anyone else on Day 1.

~~~

I do not town read MP/reywaS or S~V~S/Wilgy.

[insertnamehere]

I'll state the reasons I can think of to read each player as town (other than those I can't do so for). I'd welcome anyone who disagrees with any point made to state your disagreement. I acknowledge that I could be town reading the wrong person somewhere, and dialogue can help hash that out if so.

Beck/Quin 2.0 -- The way he returned to this game and immediately set to the task of sorting out his own Quin 1.0 lynch, and the players involved with both sides of that incident, reads quite town to me. I think it would be pretty difficult for someone in his shoes, having just been mislynched in an emotional and volatile day phase, to maintain or accelerate his contributory pace if he'd just drawn a mafia role in his second body. The transition feels seamless to me, which suggests the alignment transition was seamless.

Epignosis -- He didn't merely contribute to the Scotty lynch, he did so while pursuing a unique element of suspicion. He wasn't involved with the content that Sloonei and Golden among others found problematic, he was in his own bubble. That strikes me as both typical of a town Epignosis, and just being unlikely team mate behavior in general.

Golden -- Early in the game he was unable to participate fervently in the game, and in his sporadic appearances he theoretically ought to have had a lot of freedom to take whatever stances his whims decided. That he elected specifically to pursue the case against Scotty alongside Sloonei is a good look to me. I don't think he had to do that if he's bad.

insertnamehere -- Every argument I've had with him (and I've observed between he and Golden) is reminiscent of arguments we've already had in prior games where INH turned out to be town.

leetic -- Scotty joined my Day 1 vote against leetic in such a way that it appeared an opportunistic move against a low-content player.

Metalmarsh89 -- He had the opportunity to tie the Day 1 tally at 4-4 between INH and Scotty. He elected to vote for Scotty, effectively securing his lynch, despite having been given a big opening by Sloonei and I to do otherwise.

Ricochet -- His true effort level is low enough that I don't get the impression he has manipulative intent. Scotty engaged him with OT chatter that could have happened in a BTSC if they shared one.

Sloonei -- He had more direct influence upon the development of the Scotty wagon than anyone else on Day 1.

~~~

I do not town read MP/reywaS or S~V~S/Wilgy.

If Golden votes for me, while Epi and I vote for you, will you attempt to save yourself or will you still vote for one of the two inactives?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If Golden votes for me, while Epi and I vote for you, will you attempt to save yourself or will you still vote for one of the two inactives?

Golden has been calling you a town read for most of this night phase, so I don't anticipate that reality. In that circumstance I'm honestly not sure, it depends on upon how town I think you look in the end. That might be one of those rare circumstances where self-preservation is a bad idea.

Keeping myself alive at the expense of a town read could mean two mislynches instead of one. If we found ourselves in that scenario right now, I think I'd vote for you. My town read on you is weaker than most of the others.

[insertnamehere]

If Golden votes for me, while Epi and I vote for you, will you attempt to save yourself or will you still vote for one of the two inactives?

Golden has been calling you a town read for most of this night phase, so I don't anticipate that reality. In that circumstance I'm honestly not sure, it depends on upon how town I think you look in the end. That might be one of those rare circumstances where self-preservation is a bad idea.

Keeping myself alive at the expense of a town read could mean two mislynches instead of one. If we found ourselves in that scenario right now, I think I'd vote for you. My town read on you is weaker than most of the others.

Hmmph.

[G-Man]

OPEN MIKE NIGHT

With Donald flying solo to Washington state, the rest of the Inner Circle gathered for breakfast. Well, not all of them. Between bites of a breakfast burrito, one of them looked at his watch and quietly excused himself.

Once secluded in a quiet hallway, he pulled out a secret cell phone from his jacket pocket. Right on time, it began to ring. He answered it.

"Good morning, Charles."

"Considering the fact that I'm watching news about Trump landing safely in Seattle, I'd say it's not my idea of a good morning. Was this another rush job like what took out Christie?"

"Not exactly, Charles. And remember that the blast was on target regardless of how hasty I was. Christie just got in the way."

"So what happened this time?"

"Dumb luck."

"How so?"

"I spiked the wrong glass. Trump ordered smoothies for everyone. The waitress didn't deliver them in the same order as everything else she brought."

"So who woke up wishing they were dead this morning?" Charles asked.

"Pence. Which is just as well. He was asking for it anyway."

"Just remember that David and I are not paying you to create drama within Trump's campaign; we're paying you to eliminate him. Hillary isn't winning over any new hearts and minds these days, so it's vital that we get a substitute candidate in play."

"Yes sir."

"Any idea what happened to Huckabee?"

"Hard to say for sure. We were all following Donald to see him off for his red-eye flight when Mike went down hard. We were pretty tightly packed but I swear it looked like someone tripped him. I couldn't tell who. He twisted his ankle, broke his wrist and his nose."

"Poor baby. Still, it's curious, the timing of it all. Keep an eye out for any intra-campaign mischief. I'll call you tomorrow morning, same time as usual. Now go get back to your breakfast

----------------------

Ricochet has been hospitalized with food poisoning. He was MIKE PENCE, Donald Trump's Vice Presidential pick and a vanilla civvie.

Golden has also been hospitalized. He was MIKE HUCKABEE, a Trump sycophant and a vanilla civvie.

It is now Day 3.
You have 72 hours to remove someone from the Inner Circle.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think we're in a 6v2v1 scenario given that result. A serial killer seems more likely than a multi-shot vigilante, and there are numerous thematic applications of a SK in a politics game like this.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I could see Epignosis killing Golden. Dual function -- eliminate the only person threatening him while also making me an easier lynch. Even if he isn't mafia he could be an SK.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Frankly that Golden kill should almost clear me, but I doubt y'all have the balls.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Frankly that Golden kill should almost clear me, but I doubt y'all have the balls.

Ermagerd dat's Y u killed him!!!11

[Ricochet]

[Sloonei]

Frankly that Golden kill should almost clear me, but I doubt y'all have the balls.

Why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think we need to be conscious of the numbers. I've looked at the potential scenarios in the event of a 6 vs. 2 vs. 1 situation:



Lynching the SK is probably still not a priority. The scum lynch scenarios are better and less risky to attempt.

If there is no SK, I don't understand why a vig would shoot either Rico or Golden. Bad shot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Frankly that Golden kill should almost clear me, but I doubt y'all have the balls.

Why?

He's the only player on this roster who would have never voted for me today. Every single remaining player is fully capable of voting for me. This isn't "WIFOM", it'd be suicidal and moronic for me to kill Golden. Whoever did that, it should be obvious to an objective thinker that it wasn't me.

If someone wants to say I killed Ricochet instead, whatever. It'd be less moronic than killing Golden would be, but it's still not purposeful. He wasn't a threat to me, and he may have even followed my vote given his eternal PoE sarcasm.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

I missed one:

Lynch scum ---> K1town / K1SK ---> 5 vs. 1

[JaggedJimmyJay]

VOTE REYWAS

[Sloonei]

I think we need to be conscious of the numbers. I've looked at the potential scenarios in the event of a 6 vs. 2 vs. 1 situation:



Lynching the SK is probably still not a priority. The scum lynch scenarios are better and less risky to attempt.

If there is no SK, I don't understand why a vig would shoot either Rico or Golden. Bad shot.

Thanks Equus.

[insertnamehere]

I think we need to be conscious of the numbers. I've looked at the potential scenarios in the event of a 6 vs. 2 vs. 1 situation:



Lynching the SK is probably still not a priority. The scum lynch scenarios are better and less risky to attempt.

If there is no SK, I don't understand why a vig would shoot either Rico or Golden. Bad shot.

So what you're saying here is that you think we need to focus on lynching a baddie?

That seems reasonable to me.

[Sloonei]

I promise to actually read things and provide informed opinions on stuff at some point during this day phase.
Until then Jay is bad and I can't back that claim up.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

So what you're saying here is that you think we need to focus on lynching a baddie?

That seems reasonable to me.

I'm saying lynching a mafioso is a bigger priority than lynching a SK. Everyone seems to think I'm a mafioso, so I'm glad to give myself this advantage.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I promise to actually read things and provide informed opinions on stuff at some point during this day phase.
Until then Jay is bad and I can't back that claim up.

I think you're reading my tone and not my content.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thanks Equus.

Remember that her conclusion was to focus on the SK, not on the scum.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Maybe someday people won't think I'm an idiot. Every fucking game nowadays.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll state the reasons I can think of to read each player as town (other than those I can't do so for). I'd welcome anyone who disagrees with any point made to state your disagreement. I acknowledge that I could be town reading the wrong person somewhere, and dialogue can help hash that out if so.

Beck/Quin 2.0 -- The way he returned to this game and immediately set to the task of sorting out his own Quin 1.0 lynch, and the players involved with both sides of that incident, reads quite town to me. I think it would be pretty difficult for someone in his shoes, having just been mislynched in an emotional and volatile day phase, to maintain or accelerate his contributory pace if he'd just drawn a mafia role in his second body. The transition feels seamless to me, which suggests the alignment transition was seamless.

Epignosis -- He didn't merely contribute to the Scotty lynch, he did so while pursuing a unique element of suspicion. He wasn't involved with the content that Sloonei and Golden among others found problematic, he was in his own bubble. That strikes me as both typical of a town Epignosis, and just being unlikely team mate behavior in general.

Golden -- Early in the game he was unable to participate fervently in the game, and in his sporadic appearances he theoretically ought to have had a lot of freedom to take whatever stances his whims decided. That he elected specifically to pursue the case against Scotty alongside Sloonei is a good look to me. I don't think he had to do that if he's bad.

insertnamehere -- Every argument I've had with him (and I've observed between he and Golden) is reminiscent of arguments we've already had in prior games where INH turned out to be town.

leetic -- Scotty joined my Day 1 vote against leetic in such a way that it appeared an opportunistic move against a low-content player.

Metalmarsh89 -- He had the opportunity to tie the Day 1 tally at 4-4 between INH and Scotty. He elected to vote for Scotty, effectively securing his lynch, despite having been given a big opening by Sloonei and I to do otherwise.

Ricochet -- His true effort level is low enough that I don't get the impression he has manipulative intent. Scotty engaged him with OT chatter that could have happened in a BTSC if they shared one.

Sloonei -- He had more direct influence upon the development of the Scotty wagon than anyone else on Day 1.

~~~

I do not town read MP/reywaS or S~V~S/Wilgy.

Someone tell me why I'm wrong.

[Golden]

think I'm going to have a heart attack and die from not surprised. Good luck guys!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Maybe someday people won't think I'm an idiot. Every fucking game nowadays.

I regret this post. Sorry for the crankiness. I need to take a break from this game after this one.

[Marmot]

I promise to actually read things and provide informed opinions on stuff at some point during this day phase.
Until then Jay is bad and I can't back that claim up.

I think you're reading my tone and not my content.

He kind of admitted that in his post.

Also, you did a similar sort of thing with Quin 1.0. You encouraged his lynch while refusing to respond to his ISO of you.

[Marmot]

think I'm going to have a heart attack and die from not surprised. Good luck guys!

Please flip mafia/SK in the next few hours.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I promise to actually read things and provide informed opinions on stuff at some point during this day phase.
Until then Jay is bad and I can't back that claim up.

I think you're reading my tone and not my content.

He kind of admitted that in his post.

Also, you did a similar sort of thing with Quin 1.0. You encouraged his lynch while refusing to respond to his ISO of you.

I'm not sure I follow. My refusal to respond to Quin's ISO was about time management, not my suspicion of him. Anyway, that wasn't an accusation at Sloonei. It's assertion for him to consider as he develops his read on me. I think he's town.

[DrWilgy]

Rico and Golden?

Suppose that leaves me with one choice left.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Rico and Golden?

Suppose that leaves me with one choice left.

You're bad. And I think you're going to win. Playing like this.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

We've got a long day phase, so when time permits I am going to do full ISOs of every player. I'll be looking for mafia candidates and serial killer candidates.

I suggest the rest of you put a real effort into this day phase, and please engage me on my own reads I have already stated. I know most of you suspect me, and that's great. Wonderful. We don't need to keep rehashing the same shit. Talk to me about my reads anyway. This stuff is going to need to be sorted out if you lynch me and I am no longer here to influence the game.

[DrWilgy]

Kappaross

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'll move to DRWILGY. I'm feeling content to just call both he and reywaS the mafia team. Wilgy's vote for me here is a better "case" though. Transparently opportunistic.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

S~V~S / DrWilgy ISO:

S~V~S made no posts.

DrWilgy's return to the game has featured 7 posts. The visible difference between Wilgy 1.0's posts and Wilgy 2.0's posts is that in his current body, relevant content exists. As 1.0, he said exactly nothing relevant.

Spoiler: show

Wilgy and Rico: move your votes. That's an order!

No, Rico is bad.

Golden is bad with inh, otherwise rico is bad.

Rico and Golden?

Suppose that leaves me with one choice left.

There's nothing inspiring in these posts. He called Rico bad for undefined reasons. He associated Golden and INH (as they argued for hours) as team mates for undefined reasons. Now, with Golden and Rico dead, he has decided his "one choice left" is me -- the guy who enters this phase as the likeliest lynch.

I have left him out of my town read pile and I have no reason to change that based on this. I think he's more likely to be bad than nearly everyone else.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis ISO:

Spoiler: show

I guess I'll ask this to anyone willing to answer.

Who are the best wolves in this lineup? Who are the best villagers?

Is there anyone who cannot play one alignment well?

If I'm bad I will win. See my signature? Most of those are mafia wins. I'm proud of that.

Am I bad? Are you?

Boastful. I don't typically see this sort of WIFOM from Epignosis.

3J is my top suspect. He has projected an eagerness, which I expect, but it's empty. It's void. It looks productive, but it isn't.

He never expanded on this. I thought it was bullshit at the time. Could still be.

Spoiler: show

3J is my top suspect.

What else is new.

He has projected an eagerness, which I expect, but it's empty. It's void. It looks productive, but it isn't.

True productivity on Day 0 is nearly impossible. That doesn't stop me from trying. Produce something better or kiss my ass.

I'm going to let you do your thing. If you're good, we'll end up burying the thread for nothing (except good times). If you're bad, then it's not like I can convince anybody to lynch you this early anyway. Am I correct that you've never been lynched on The Syndicate?

He adopted this stance of docility early in the game, and given the fight we had in Triskaidekaphobia I can understand that. I would question the highlighted assertion though. In the aforementioned game, he got me as far as tied for a lynch lead on Day 2, which is still quite early in a game.

Everyone else: I don't expect you to read our text walls. Once we've had our chat and I am satisfied with whatever conclusion I come to I'll summarize it.

My suspicion of you has grown, sir. Why wouldn't you expect people to read what you've posted and form their own opinions and instead rely on your summary?

I have at points thought his suspicion of me was contrived, and this is an example. To suspect me for that is stupid.

Spoiler: show

Epi? He's Epi. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Epi. Yet. Why does he have 2 votes?

MM- wow this guy I actually read...as good this game. I don't know what it is honestly. He's not as zany, he's more direct in his accusations. It's just atypical Mm day 1 behavior, and I'm liking it I think. Not that I don't like silly Mm behavior, but that I also like this guy as well. Enough so that I'm not gonn vote him today.

You don't know why I have two votes. MM is one of those votes, and you say he was direct in his accusations. Can you explain why MM voted for me?

Best indicator that he's not teamed with Scotty.

Spoiler: show

If I've suspected you every game, good or bad, why did you suggest I'm forcing myself to suspect you?

The accusation you rendered bears that appearance. It was a negative assessment of my posts supported by no references to anything -- bad adjectives in a vacuum. If I don't know why you feel that way, I have ask myself whether you really suspect me or you're trying to suspect me.

I'm not sure yet whether "you suspect me every game good or bad" is accurate. The "bad" example was The Office, but you didn't speak ill of me until I was dead and I couldn't say anything. If you're bad now, I think this'd be the first example of you actually addressing me directly with fake suspicion. The scenario being imagined is that your tendency to suspect me when you're good has become frequent enough that it could be associated with your good self -- thus generating a reason to assume that posture when you're bad.

Well, for what it's worth, I don't pay attention to what I usually do. I asked you to name instances of when I thought you were bad to shut down the idea that I always think you're bad and therefore felt compelled to suspect you. I didn't realize I had that kind of track record.

I'll give him credit for being willing to listen on Day 1. I don't know what happened to that mentality later.

Spoiler: show

Honest question, Rico: I know you're not in the States, but do you find ourself gravitating towards any particular politician over here? What's your take on the political climate? Very curious.

Would Scotty ask a teammate something like this when he could ask in the semi-privacy of BTSC? I would say no. I've had lots of BTSC with Scotty compared to other people, and he's a talker. I realize people don't like factoring in OT green stuff, but if it's in the thread, I use it. This is a point in Ricochet's favor.

I can appreciate that he was willing to pull Ricochet out of the PoE (yes, that's what you did ) based upon a minor detail like this.

Nice display of initiative to find clues in Scotty's posts

Spoiler: show

True or false: Had 3J been almost anybody else, he would have been summarily lynched today.

That isn't what I asked. I didn't ask "Should Jay be lynched today if he was anyone else?" I asked, "Would he?" Your response that "Quin is the correct lynch today 100% of the time." doesn't mean anything with respect to what I asked about 3J. If 3J were sig, would sig be getting lynched today?

Shit logic. "If JJJ was sig we'd lynch him"

Yeah, probably. And it'd end like most sig lynches end.

Spoiler: show

Your defense here is based on my acceptance of your two solutions. That's limiting. I don't buy that you think there are only two ways to go the way Day 1 played out. Unless you are bad at being bad (and you aren't), the ways are myriad.

I don't particularly care whether you accept my defense. We're talking about a sequence which elapsed about 30 minutes, so no I don't believe there were a myriad of options. If you want to talk about the entirety of Day 1, then this discussion needs to expand a great deal because the variables worth considering become immensely more numerous.

Then why offer one? Just tell me to go fuck myself instead of feeding me something like, "Look man, there's only two things I would have done if I were bad." You're not a lousy mafia member. You can be manipulative. I do not believe you, as bad, would have felt limited to two choices.

And that's my vote.

Voted for me because I am not him.

I get the impression he scrutinizes me more closely than other people and that's why he suspects me so frequently. That's to say that his accusations appear honest even if I think they're crap.

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I'll knock epi down a peg to neutral for doing exactly what inh did.

The narrative is 'golden was wrong last time, so he shouldn't be listened to this time'.

It's a bullshit narrative, and epi and inh both know that full well.

Your ways are best.

I'm happy to be a neutral peg or whatever it is I am.



I'm with INH in this: Neither of us suspect you. We just think your methods are shit.

Bringing this out because it's his only real response to Golden casting suspicion upon him (dropping him from town to neutral). Golden was a night kill, so it's relevant.

~~~~~~~~

I'm still inclined to say he's an unlikely team mate of Scotty. If he's bad it's as a serial killer (unless there's a second mafia team in which case we're all fucked anyway).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

insertnamehere ISO:

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I think JJJ is my strongest Republican read right now. He's just randomly throwing admittedly false facts around, and when pressed on whether they're even true, he just shrugs and says "Who Cares?" while saying that anyone who doesn't think with their gut and accept his emotion based ideas as fact is a darn high-faluttin' wafler who's to much of a damn pansy to make a stand.

He's pretty much symbolic of the current state of the GOP.

He made an emotional read of me during Day 0. Bold play.

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No, what I meant was that despite all of your gameplay that I disagree with, this still seems par for the course for you, and I don't suspect you for it. That was essentially me saying that you're acting how a civ 3J would act in my limited experience.

So you asked me that question up there, flooded the thread with gifs, and then misrepresented everything I've said in a way to make it appear sillier than it was -- all to tell me that you trust me?

I don't believe you. You know I'm town and you're trying to discredit me by pointing to things you think can be portrayed as illogical or unfair. It's a way to weaken my influence without specifically attacking me as a scum read. Nope.

You got one thing right, I am, in fact, trying to weaken your influence over the thread. Although it's not because I'm bad and I think you're civ, it's because I think it's important for people to doubt everything they read in a game of mafia, and focus less on brash personalities. And I don't think what you're suggesting at this point would benefit the civ cause, even though I perfectly understand why you're suggesting it.

Can civilians disagree in mafia without calling each other scum? This is like a bizarro version of "can men and women be close friends without romance entering the eqaution?"

I think he's wrong about nearly every strategic claim he makes, but that doesn't make him bad. It's the same argument that came out of The Office Mafia. He feels the same way about me. Okay, neat. Early in the game that was his clear stance: I'm town despite my ways.

I side more with Epi and Rico than JJJ and Scotty, although I do agree with No True Scotsman that Sloonei has been pushing Quin a wee bit too hard for my liking.

I still don't know why I'm being conjoined with Scotty in this post, or why Epignosis was being conjoined with Ricochet. He addressed this already to some degree, but I am not clear.

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I'm going to throw my vote onto the Scotty bonfire. Him and Sloonei are probably my two most suspicious people at this point, and I'm willing to give Sloonei a chance to earn my trust here. Plus I really don't like the Leetic bandwagon, so helping to derail that is a nice bonus.

This post looked bad to me, and to Sloonei too, and it motivated both of us to mount a CFD against him at the end of Day 1. It was never likely to save Scotty, but it did come within one vote at its apex. The voters were Sloonei, Rico, and myself -- which if my reads are accurate means 3 townies. There would thus be no mafia influence driving the counterwagon to Scotty, meaning the door is still open for the Day 1 wagons to have been scum/scum. That's also an important variable to consider regarding MM, whose vote decided the final outcome.

If I follow his train of thought accurately, this appears to be where his read on me begins to shift toward the negative. It is after the Scotty lynch. This is a detail which was relevant to Quin's case, so Quin -- this one's for you.

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Can I just say that I find it kinda hilarious how 3J, Sloonei, and Rico attempted to lead a counter-lynch by trying to lynch me instead of Scotty, and yet they've managed to shift all suspicion onto me once again? I mean, come on. Don't either of you guys have anything else to do but try and find logical loopholes where I come out of Day 1 more suspicious than you three?

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there's a baddie in that trio.

He clearly states his suspicion of me here, along with Sloonei and Rico. I don't recall him making waves with any of those three suspicions except for against me though.

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The only two other lving people who didn't vote for Scotty are Beck who voted MP as some sort of weird grudge joke thing, and Quin.

My vote for today will either go to 3J, Rico, or Quin.

Excluding Sloonei for how he went after Scotty.

He took Sloonei out of his own PoE ( ) here and put Quin in it.

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The easy and correct move for a team mate of Scotty in my position is to bus him. The probability that he would be lynched was always quite high even with the late INH wagon's development.

True or false: Had 3J been almost anybody else, he would have been summarily lynched today.

If I survive better than "almost anybody else". it's because I explain myself better -- not because I should be lynched. I might even agree with you: what I did might get people lynched in many alternate universes. And each time it'd be a poor lynch. The behavior being associated with me is very sloppy. I am not sloppy. Most people aren't that sloppy.

wouldya just getta whiff of this wifom?

Terrified of WIFOM. Townies often are.

Fighting with Golden over strategy. Recalls our Day 1 in this game and the other games I've already referenced.

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PROPOSED STRATEGY: Lynch JaggedJimmyJay.

If he's scum, celebrate.

If he's town, lynch Quin.

Following his lead on this would have been two consecutive mislynches. Might still be.

Accuses me of being "self-righteous" in the midst of constant self-righteousness.

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@Quin voters who aren't 3J: In the event that Quin is civ, would you be open to a 3J lynch Day 3?

Yeah there's your double mislynch.

Snarky mocking of Golden -- this actually looks like town behavior to me. Townies are more likely to be petty, and to pretend they've been right about something based on nothing.

I like that he asked me this -- It's a good question in that in forces me to project a future scenario in which I might have to put my money where my mouth is (by voting for an inactive when others want my head). I think it also makes it less likely he was involved with the Golden kill.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think I see more town than not. One can also suggest he's a SK candidate and killed Golden (he apparently felt Golden suspected him longer than was actually true).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

leetic:

There's only one real post.

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Everyone else: I don't expect you to read our text walls. Once we've had our chat and I am satisfied with whatever conclusion I come to I'll summarize it.

My suspicion of you has grown, sir. Why wouldn't you expect people to read what you've posted and form their own opinions and instead rely on your summary?

Why would we go to the trouble of researching something and forming our own opinions when we can get a nice tidy, completely unbiased five word long summary from FOX News or Breitbart that tells us how to feel about things?

You've given us very little so far other than to criticize the play of someone you have declared a town read for.

If you think my methods are unhelpful, then take a look in the freaking mirror dude. This is useless.

The latter part is CWAC (which stands for Contributing Without Actually Contributing btw). You're saying you won't do something, but not why. Others being unhelpful is no excuse to have said behavior.

I didn't like it on Day 1. I thought the accusation wasn't applicable to anything I said and that it just looked made up. However, Scotty changed my mind:

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Hey Sloonei, want to vote Bass the Clever with me?

I do not. Why are you voting for him?

Lol

Yeah, I'm fine changing my vote from Quin based on this back and forth with Sloonei just in case I'm being bamboozled. Quin is one of 5 people I could vote for for almost interchangeable lack of content reasons. Let's move on to the one that JJJ has brought up better reasons for.

leetic

Looks opportunistic, and it looks like self-preservation before it would have been necessary to SP-vote a team mate.

~~~~~~~~~

On his own power, leetic could be lumped with Wilgy 2.0 and reywaS. Neither of those two has a post like Scotty's here though to make them look better.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Metalmarsh89:

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My first impressions.

Jay, Beck, MP are civilians.

Epignosis and Ricochet are mafia.

MM was [one of the] first to provide actual reads in this game. I liked it, not everybody did.

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I think you're town. Emoticon casing is town. You get a town read.

Interesting, why do you think so?

Decent look that he didn't just waddle away with my town read points and instead pressed me for an explanation.

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I like this explanation.

Certified WIFOM Bucket Metalmarsh laid an egg in his most recent game and hopes to have a stronger performance this time around.

That said. Expect WIFOM! Lots of WIFOM! It's gonna be great. It's gonna be yuuuge!

I appreciate this at face value. I think MM's post history mostly reflects this statement. To be fair though I made a similar read on Day 1 with Scotty and it burned me.

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not quite sure what else to discuss without creating reads for the sake of creating reads

normally id be making some player-based meta reads but ive got no ammo for that

I am acting completely off my meta to this point, so your best bet is to keep a mafia read on me for the time being.

I'm Making Flippy Floppy!

There's our old WIFOMy pal.

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Ricochet, my accusation was tongue-in-cheek, as evidenced by the final word. But hey, I garnered a reaction and now I feel like electing you if you know what I mean.

Ricochet... Law of averages suggests that he is mafia, amiright?

I like how MM wielded his Day 0/1 reads, as a means of generating more concrete reads through interaction. That's also a top notch emoticon.

Supports Epignosis on his ping against Scotty

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I kind of get the feeling that Scotty was caught in a kerfuffle, but not necessarily as a baddie. The down side of laying snares like Sloonei did is that townies often don't know what to do with them either.

It's not a lynch I'll staunchly oppose. I think we could do worse.

Do you normally offer soft defenses of any player that looks lynchable on Day 1?

Poked me about my Scotty waffling. This could be called a projection of Scotty's scum flip and thus TMI, but that feels like a reach.

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Scotty's response to Epignosis isn't very persuasive.

He does make a good point to Quin. I said I was changing my Day 1 tactic, and Quin had nothing to say about it. Scotty changes his Day 1 tactics, and gets suspected for it.

MM gave Scotty no breathing room, even when I tried to prevent the lynch.

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I'm voting Scotty.

I don't see anything in the post that Jay mentioned to vote for leetic. I don't have time to look at inh. Preceding Scotty's flip, I don't like Jay's actions at the end of this lynch. I know he likes to push buttons, but the reasons for lynching Scotty are stronger to me than elsewhere.

Secures the Scotty lynch, suggests he isn't amused by my EOD behavior. I understand, and I think the combination of this decisive vote and his side-eyed paranoia about me looks quite town.

This post came between the Scotty town flip and the Scotty scum flip. I like this too. The "Yes I am looking at YOU" emoticon at Sloonei is a nice look for someone who would have just believed he placed a hammer mislynch vote and was being smeared for it.

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So what you're saying is Jay should be in my PoE. OK. Interesting. I'll have to look at that, I've felt good about Jay all game.

Question, sloonei - should MM be in the PoE?

WELL his vote for Scotty now looks pretty good, but not good enough to dismiss him as a suspect especially considering his WIFOMy nature. Jay is a worthy suspect.

I'm basically confirmed civ.

My top 3 suspects are Ricochet, Jay, and Epignosis.

Scratch that, Epignosis is coming off the list. But Jay and Rico will stay.

I don't fault MM for suspecting us here given our role in the INH wagon and specifically my attempt to get his vote.

I like where his mind is at in his judgment of the Rico/JJJ battle

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Quin's read on Golden right now reminds me of myself in Transistor. Basically the whole game llama knew I was bad and he made it pretty obvious, but I was Mr. Careful and never quite attacked him for it until late in the game. A "begrudging town read" is exactly the type of scum indicator I was looking for.

Shit, I did the same thing with coolkid in the champs finale last year (hi Rico!) when he knew I was bad. It's textbook scum.

For all we know, you set him up to stamp him as scum.

Linki: You've specifically been asking him for a read of Golden all day, so that you could compare that behavior to a previous game of yourself as mafia? Smells like a setup to me.

You're damn right it was a setup. There was a right answer and a wrong answer. If he went after Golden with any of the vigor he has wasted on me, I would probably read him as town right now. I think there's a viable tinfoil case to be made against Golden.

Quin isn't interested in that. He's playing it safe. I know the strategy well.

I think I agree with you Jay.

I'm having trouble collecting my thoughts though. Ugh...

During the Quin 1.0/JJJ tally battle, MM switched from me to Quin. I think his change of mind looks genuine.

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@Quin voters who aren't 3J: In the event that Quin is civ, would you be open to a 3J lynch Day 3?

Yes I would be interested. We can talk more about it after we find out what Quin is. Who knows, we might have to wait a few hours to find out.

This isn't my favorite thing. Preliminary smearing after being given the opportunity by INH.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I like MM's post history even more than I expected to. At every juncture of the game, I think he has shown a willingness to consider multiple sides of each discussion, and he hasn't jumped to conclusions. I don't see much potential for manipulation other than the one thing at the end there. I don't think he's bad. I don't really see a good reason to call him a SK either. I guess Golden kind of suspected him in a hypothetical relationship with INH.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Granted, Ricochet also had early beefs with MM. So perhaps there's a SK kill motive there too. I think I'll just look into SK shit separately, it's too hard to keep straight.

[Quin]

that nightkill is too clean.