Death and Taxes: An Economics Mafia [DAY 7]

[G-Man]

[Tangrowth]

G-Man, are you cursed?

none of the roles in the op mention that, do any of the Economics people know if it would make sense for any of the characters to be cursed?

(idk if this is at all ok to speculate since claiming is forbidden)

This kind of speculation is totally OK, especially since most games have secrets!

Llama actually prefers to word his roles vaguely, instead of indicating (Secrets), so while there don't appear to be any reasons to be cursed, ESPECIALLY on Day 1 since night actions couldn't have been submitted yet, I don't find any other logical explanation for G-Man's behavior. So even though it seems very unlikely explained by the roles, and possibly a Day 0 side effect (but unlikely since G-Man voted the same option as I did and I am not cursed), I thought I'd ask. Was curious if he could post a picture saying "Yes" or something like that.

[Tangrowth]

alright....bedtime for me. I am hoping I don't have 10 pages to catch up on when I wake up

linki: he had to answer every question that any of the new-to-the-syndicates asked - even the ones directly asked to the hosts.

linki with MP. I like your answers They do make me feel better. When I said I couldn't put my finger on it, its b/c I felt it could go either way. You seem to be a much more cheerful player and that scared me a bit, sorry. But I thought, maybe it's just b/c we have new players. But then I remembered that you took some time away from Mafia (or now I know you took time away from the syndicate) and I thought....maybe his supportive, helpful, cheerful behavior can be explained by him being excited to be back playing again. And, I think that must be it. When I called you a selfish player I didn't mean anything mean by it Thank you for not finding offense. You're a stand-up dude. For example, I would say Epi is a selfish player. He will act as he wishes no mater what others think. You were like that too imo, just not AS selfish as Epi. Does that make sense?

NOW, I am off to bed.

AHH, linki linki linki. Hey G, you know peewee is on netflix? Haha, my kids find it pretty hilarious

Okay, thank you so much! I understand what you're saying much better now.

"Cheerful" is something I can identify and understand. Yes, I do feel more excited for this game than I have for a game in a while, largely because I've rediscovered a huge passion for the game. I really love mafia; it's the perfect combination of strategy, social interaction, creative writing, and deception, so I find it hard to not play games, but it wasn't until a light bulb moment in HSK that I just hadn't really felt truly passionate about a game in a long time, and that I was more receptive to negative emotions in the past year or so at least of games than I used to be. So I think it's very possible I could be coming across differently in that regard.

Your definition of a selfish player also makes MUCH more sense now, and I like to think that I do act in accordance with what I think is right, but I can fathom why you think my posts this game seem more considerate of others' opinions than I've been in prior games.

[Tangrowth]

I'm going to head out for the night myself. I have a busier day tomorrow (aka I can't procrastinate nearly as much), so I'll post whenever I can; I'll update my Rainbow List at that time!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

i've had enough for tonight too. been a fun start; i look forward to interacting with everyone else.

[Black Rock]

Just catching up here. You guys have been busy today.

This post is where I'm at.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

I really don't see MP as being overly helpful. I see it more as him excited about the new players and helping them out. I would expect this behaviour from MP and I would expect you to see this as well.

[Epignosis]

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

Now that's an odd thing to say, isn't it? I get the culture is different, but if he knows the votes can't be changed, then what difference does it make if over half of the player base hasn't posted? Why comment on the fact? Isn't that true for everyone?

I like the cut of JaggedJimmyJay's Jib. He gets a pass from me Day 1. Bravo.

[Black Rock]

How is Gman cursed already?

[Epignosis]

For example, I would say Epi is a selfish player. He will act as he wishes no mater what others think.

Deconstruct this please.

Selfishness = Acting as one wishes no matter what others think

Is that really selfishness?

Don't you act the way you want to regardless of what others think? Or do you play Mafia constantly worried what others will think?

[Epignosis]

How is Gman cursed already?

His genes?

[Sloonei]

I tried to elaborate in my first post but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. It just doesn't seem like MP behavior. I've seen his baddie game as a teammate and not as a teammate. I've seen his civ game as well. I am not saying I am even up to 80% sure he is bad, but I do know his behavior seems odd to me and I will be watching him as this game progresses. As for the rest of you who are talking a lot, this is my first game with you. I am going to need more hard core evidence (like voting records) before I convince myself one of you are bad.

Linki: MP, you do talk everything to death, yes But I've never seen you so helpful and supportive of other players. You are kind of a selfish player, does that make sense? Now, not as selfish a player as Epi , but still.

In the first paragraph, you say you can't put your finger on it.

In the second, you say it's because you've never seen me so helpful and supportive of other players.

I have many questions:
1) Which is it? You can't put your finger on it or because you've never seen me so helpful and supportive?
2) If it is the latter, how does that make me bad?
3) I'm really kind of shocked you describe me as a selfish player (don't worry, I'm not offended) because I feel like I try to get discussion going as much as I can. Can you elaborate on what you mean exactly perhaps? I don't really understand.
4) How has my play changed? Just the helpful and supportive? In what ways am I being helpful and supportive any more than usual?

I split your post up since I want to respond to your question in a separate thought.

This is something I want a response to. I could see this sort of little inconsistency in a post being a scum-tell.

I also looked through sanmateo's posts to try to grasp where the early suspicion is coming from and I don't see it. I came out of it liking his casing of DDL more than my own and at the moment my imaginary vote is on the Dragon.

[Sloonei]

also, dunno if this is important to be aware of right now, but what exactly does it mean for a player to be cursed? i assume it's just some sort of post-restriction, but

[Golden]

Yeah, it's a generic word to mean your ability to post freely is effected in some way (other than being completely silenced, which is called silenced).

[Marmot]

Syndicateers, if any of you might have meta-based input: who among the current player list (other than the new players) do you think are most likely to respond in an emotional way to early pressure? for you RYMers, i am looking for their version of RDW.

Not me. It takes me a fair amount of pressure to respond to statements emotionally, and usually only when I am bad.

But I would nominate Dom for this particular statement. Or MovingPictures07 if I am the one making accusations.

Syndicateers, if any of you might have meta-based input: who among the current player list (other than the new players) do you think are most likely to respond in an emotional way to early pressure? for you RYMers, i am looking for their version of RDW.

Either me, Dom, or Roxy.

I get a lot of attention due to my propensity to be given bad roles, baddie gambits I've pulled off, general miscommunications, as well as various other reasons, most notably posting a lot and leaving much for players to pick at and turn mountains into molehills. I have therefore gotten emotional to repeated accusations in my direction early in games, after what I felt were unfair accusations by many in consecutive games.

Dom tends to be a very driven player, who acts a lot of questions, but has an emotional demeanor. He wants people to explain themselves and he will ask whatever questions he has on his mind. If someone voted for him or eyed him early on, you better bet it'd get a response.

Rox is similar to Dom, I think, but her playstyle doesn't have the question-asking character that Dom has.

And MovingPictures07 concurs.

Some players like to stay in the shadows when they're town.

rest assured, i don't like to stay in the shadows when i'm anything.

i think the most fundamental and simple means of scumhunting is merely to post a lot. a high-activity thread is a bigger challenge for scum teams than a low activity thread, obviously. and it isn't just because there is more content to assess -- it's also because real-time communication is more difficult for players with a reason to second-guess the things they say. and when post counts/content slack in an obvious way, it can be very exposing.

of course many experienced scummers have learned to cope with this. but it's still beneficial. so i love to post constantly, and when the content allows it provide thorough analysis.

I agree. But in a game where votes are not changeable, "pressure votes" (as I like to call them) are useless, and one must find other means to get someone to post.

Jay, to add to what I said, not sure anyone in this game is an RDW type of player, but hopefully that answers your question. Having reviewed the players in this game, I feel I definitely answered your question most accurately in terms of the players who react most notably to early pressure.

I know you didn't ask, but it got me thinking. The Syndicate players who would probably be LEAST likely to react emotionally to pressure early on are: BWT, BR, Elo, and Epi.

BWT, BR, and Elo just seem as though they would be least emotionally reactive to an early suspicion of them, though I'm sure they would react, and Epi would most certainly react, and his reaction would be notable, but he would likely do so in a very measured manner, not an emotional one. I don't see Epi get cornered emotionally very often, even though he tends to receive a lot of heat for his unique style of playing.

Inevitably, this is all my opinion, but that goes without saying. I'm not sure whether others would agree or disagree with my assessments, but I think I've given the best responses.

I also love posting as much as I can. :P

And no problem!

You've managed to talk about every Syndicater except for myself.

I have not played an open setup game in years and I usually ask The Thread what it thinks the possible setup could be at a certain point early in the game. I can't do that here

You can ask. I'll just link you to the OP.

I think it's very likely that it's true, and that it could just be a different way of thinking. I've been wrong about players because I didn't agree with their way of hinking so I framed them as scum, when the truth was that they were just different from me.

But I also see the possibility of a scum slip. For example, he might have tried to start a conversation just to make it look like he's talking, and when someone (me) tried to question what he said, he backed down because he isn't really interested in discussing.

sloonei's phrasing did caught my eye but it seems odd that you are going ahead and calling that a possible* scumslip when you just agreed with his method of "want[ing] to make people talk to see if can get someone knocked out of their confort zone"

*possibility of but still. safe-word, bad, scumtell

Not much, considering we don't know anyone's previous role. Like I said, I was mostly throwing a theory on the wall to see how people would react.

I just found the timing interesting. The host sent the new roles, and suddenly Jay was like "can I start playing seriously on day 0"?

good thinking, can we post our previous roles or would that be game-breaking? do we even know if there was any alignment changes?

I think no. The old roles may contain information that is not knowledgeable to the thread, so I think it would be better to keep that information away from the wrong hands. I say this from the perspective of a host who would want that information to only be in the hands of the player who actually had the role, not everyone else. While revealing your old role would not be roleclaiming, it would put the player who actually had that role at a slight disadvantage.

[Marmot]

I do think it's weird that you tried to start a conversation by saying something you don't actually believe in.

What implications does "weird" have for you? Are you reading civilian, mafia, or neutral on Sloonei? Do you believe his explanation?

I think it's very likely that it's true, and that it could just be a different way of thinking. I've been wrong about players because I didn't agree with their way of hinking so I framed them as scum, when the truth was that they were just different from me.

But I also see the possibility of a scum slip. For example, he might have tried to start a conversation just to make it look like he's talking, and when someone (me) tried to question what he said, he backed down because he isn't really interested in discussing.

I had stated my "disinterest" in the idea in the initial post where I brought it up, to be fair. You don't seem committed to either side of the argument in this post. If you had to choose at this moment, which would you say is more likely? That I am just a townie with a different strategy, or a slippin' scummy?

A townie with a different strategy. Scum usually doesn't slip that easily unless they're pretty bad.

@sanmateo: It's one thing to want to make people talk, but scum also wants to join conversations to avoid looking like they're hiding. The two things are equally possible.

And I like to call people scum. Defenses are a great way to get reactions.

This usually gets me in danger of being lynched on D1, though.

Somebody has to be lynched on Day 1.

Anyone in the know:

Is it typical for Epignosis to be aware of and introduced to a game (as seen in his initial new-role post) but distinctly quiet while others carry on discussion?

In his last two games, Epignosis was pretty active on Day 1 and right in the middle of the fire. In one of those games he was a baddie. The other game is still ongoing, so we cannot discuss that one further.

Committing to slight civilian read on DDL. I believe him.

MovingPictures07 feels like a foreigner to me.

the game is still very young, so i understand many people simply haven't gotten here to play yet. that's cool. i do hope many of them come soon though before i go to sleep. i love to engage players directly on Day 1 with live communication.

I'm here. Come online.

It's not often that I say this...

In fact, it has never happened before...

I tried to catch up during lunch and read page 4. Pushed refresh. We are up to page 6.

Clearly, this is not Syndicate culture. It's insane!!! I'm used to being the loud one. I think I'm about to be overshadowed. But it's interesting. Hope some of our newbies who are used to quieter things (eg Tiny Bubbles) can keep up!

We've got work to do.

Oh, and you're scum.

In fact, while I've come to appreciate changeable votes more in playing games on other sites, I still generally dislike them here, and hated them with a passion at first, since it makes it much harder to track and analyze voting patterns. I'm so accustomed to the poll way of voting; since the bolded vote is optional, it just always seemed like too much unnecessary chaos for the civilians and too much flexibility for the mafia.

When votes aren't changeable, mafia have to commit to a fabricated suspicion and don't have the leisure to switch it at the last minute.

i do love late-day lynch drama tho

Likewise.

I went on a crazy rant in a recent game, because I was being lynched as a civilian. Votes were not changeable, but the lynch was already unanimous with 24 hours left in the day phase. In (rare) cases like that, permanent votes are difficult to work with.

In fact, while I've come to appreciate changeable votes more in playing games on other sites, I still generally dislike them here, and hated them with a passion at first, since it makes it much harder to track and analyze voting patterns. I'm so accustomed to the poll way of voting; since the bolded vote is optional, it just always seemed like too much unnecessary chaos for the civilians and too much flexibility for the mafia.

When votes aren't changeable, mafia have to commit to a fabricated suspicion and don't have the leisure to switch it at the last minute.

i do love late-day lynch drama tho

You're scum too.

So far my perceptions are leaning civ on DDL, and maybe sanmateo could be bad.

And I now see that in the time it took me to write this post, MP agrees with that read. Interesting.

I found this interesting as well.

I disagree about sanmateo. I am unsure about DDL.

For the record, I don't know any of the other newbies. The ones I know are MP, who I have played one game with and talked to on skype for a while, and Metalmarsh, who I have played the same game with.

I've also watched Turnip Head's game on mafia championship, so I *kinda* know him. Though I heard the way he played there was completely different than how he usually plays here, so I dunno.

Cheers.

[Marmot]

Anyway, I like what Golden said about wanting other people to talk. Including we 4 newbies and MP, only 5 people have talked this night. The other 14 (including Golden who only showed up now) have been silent. Where are the others? There's no point in talking this much if most of the scum is conveniently lurking as the townies and maybe 1-2 scum argue with each other.

I agree with you and Golden as well. However, I live in Oregon the west coast of the USA for those in Europe who are unfamiliar. My availability fr conversation does not always match up with other players'.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

Depends on your point of view. I can say the probability of each of the 4 people I'm talking about being town is high. But the probability of ALL four of them being town? Not that high. I agree there's a fair chance of one being mafia among them, but I haven't seen an indicator that makes one seem a lot scummier than the others. I have reasons to suspect all 4 a little.

I find this statement to be unhelpful and unproductive.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

And here we go with the suspicion my direction on Day 1 AGAIN.

I was feeling pretty chill about heat coming my way, but this "overhelpful" accusation gets really tiresome and it's bull. I like to be helpful regardless of alignment. I'm excited to play this game regardless of my alignment.

Elo, you've seen this behavior from me time and time again, and I believe I do it regardless of alignment, so I don't understand your thought process. Please elaborate.

And here we go with MovingPictures07 pulling the quick trigger on his defense AGAIN. :P

i am finding myself liking DDL's defenses, particularly the most recent. he is earnestly trying to describe a Day 1 strategy that is inherently a bit volatile but potentially highly productive for a townie. i am particularly familiar with what he is describing because i employ a similar approach myself. i like that he is willing to play a little dangerously, because dangerous play generates controversy and thus meaningful and readable content from others. it isn't terribly townie behavior, in my opinion, to play tentatively merely for the sake of alleviating suspicion upon oneself. welcoming a little suspicion with the promise to create a bonafide Mafia game right away in Day 1 is good play.

good strategy doesn't imply innocence of course. but i like that he is open about his methods, and his descriptions do seem to reflect both his posts so far and the way others have perceived him.

Do you want to know what I look for?

Breasts?

[Marmot]

Golden, you said you see me as playing differently? How? I feel this is pretty par for the course behavior from me, so I'm intrigued. Maybe you've just never seen me in full form.

I think your language and approach mirrors our new friends to some extent. You are normally keen for day one discussion but on this occasion you are super keen. To me, though, it mirrors your general tone and excitement I've seen from you outside the thread concerning all the newbies we have, so I raised it specifically to note that I don't think it is an indication that you are not being yourself in any meaningful game way.

I noticed the same thing. But I guess it is not very surprising. MovingPictures07 had a nice long interaction with 4 players new to the Syndicate, and they are bound to rub off on him in such a scenario. I've felt myself acting the same way in the games I've played on other sites.

I see that DDL thinks all those who've been posting tonight look like town. I disagree, but not only that, I highly doubt that none of the mafia are talking. I just can't see that being the case. Honestly, I see MP's over-helpful behavior as suspicious. I know we have a lot of new players and he wants to be helpful, but there's just something fishy about it.

Is this "something fishy" something you could elaborate on, or is it nothing more than an inkling at the moment?

I tried to elaborate in my first post but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. It just doesn't seem like MP behavior. I've seen his baddie game as a teammate and not as a teammate. I've seen his civ game as well. I am not saying I am even up to 80% sure he is bad, but I do know his behavior seems odd to me and I will be watching him as this game progresses. As for the rest of you who are talking a lot, this is my first game with you. I am going to need more hard core evidence (like voting records) before I convince myself one of you are bad.


Linki: MP, you do talk everything to death, yes But I've never seen you so helpful and supportive of other players. You are kind of a selfish player, does that make sense? Now, not as selfish a player as Epi , but still. The only thing holding me back from really thinking you are bad is the fact that there are a lot of new players and maybe that has changed your play a bit. I have a question for you....and you might not be able to answer with the sock game going on, but.....I know you took a bit of a sabbatical from Mafia. Is this your first game back in a while?

Good night the LINKI. I think Jay may be done for

MovingPictures07 subbed into Flash Mafia (for a single day period).

But as I told Golden, MovingPictures07 is surely just adapting to the influence of different styles coming in from other places. MovingPictures07 also just played a game on RYM, where four of the new players came from.

I was wondering when Adverb Epi would strike.

is Adverb Epi a thing? it's important to me, because i view that sort of vocabulary/grammar/part of speech accusation to be definition scummy

It is a tactic that Epignosis seems to like to use.

Jay, Epi is an English teacher, and the Adverb suspicion is one that he commonly holds throughout many games. I don't think it indicates mafia behavior from him, more of just an opinion.

thank you. i'll continue failing to capitalize a single thing too.

Oh, you'll fail to capitalize, all right.

In an Economics game, no less.

sorry jay, we're syndicators now.

[Marmot]

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

Now that's an odd thing to say, isn't it? I get the culture is different, but if he knows the votes can't be changed, then what difference does it make if over half of the player base hasn't posted? Why comment on the fact? Isn't that true for everyone?

I like the cut of JaggedJimmyJay's Jib. He gets a pass from me Day 1. Bravo.

I agree about Dragon. I think he is bad news.

But regarding this particular part...

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

What exactly is wrong with that? I don't understand.

[Marmot]

I am all caught up now.

So, off to bed.

[acrosstheaether]

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

Where we're from, generating a lot of discussion on day one is a good idea. Gives us more to work from in the future.

[acrosstheaether]

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

Good point.

[Marmot]

Oh hello acrosstheaether. Nice to see someone else up so late as well.

Are you as proactive as your RYM comrades?

Can I use the word "comrade" in this game?

[Golden]

We've got work to do.

Oh, and you're scum.

I was wondering, in this new world of spiritual voting, if you have spiritually self-voted yet?

[Golden]

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

Where we're from, generating a lot of discussion on day one is a good idea. Gives us more to work from in the future.

I completely agree. I don't want to misinterpreted as being anti-discussion, I'm quite the opposite. Day one is a great place to find baddies after lynching other baddies several days later. BUT, when barely any regulars were talking at all, it bothered me how easy a target it would make them.

Consider it a warning to drive by voters, not truly a warning to the people who were talking.

[fingersplints]

Damn you guys are posting a lot. I'm only about half way through this

[fingersplints]

Before I forget:

In fact, while I've come to appreciate changeable votes more in playing games on other sites, I still generally dislike them here, and hated them with a passion at first, since it makes it much harder to track and analyze voting patterns. I'm so accustomed to the poll way of voting; since the bolded vote is optional, it just always seemed like too much unnecessary chaos for the civilians and too much flexibility for the mafia.

When votes aren't changeable, mafia have to commit to a fabricated suspicion and don't have the leisure to switch it at the last minute.

I thought this was funny because I am the same way. I used to HATE them because I felt it makes people less accountable for their votes. When it was said votes aren't changeable I was like "aww too bad" amd immediately was like "hmm well that's interesting when did that happen?" Haha

I think the major thing I grew to like about changeable votes is if I vote early I could see the results without having to click on the view results. How lazy is that

[fingersplints]

alright....bedtime for me. I am hoping I don't have 10 pages to catch up on when I wake up

linki: he had to answer every question that any of the new-to-the-syndicates asked - even the ones directly asked to the hosts.

linki with MP. I like your answers They do make me feel better. When I said I couldn't put my finger on it, its b/c I felt it could go either way. You seem to be a much more cheerful player and that scared me a bit, sorry. But I thought, maybe it's just b/c we have new players. But then I remembered that you took some time away from Mafia (or now I know you took time away from the syndicate) and I thought....maybe his supportive, helpful, cheerful behavior can be explained by him being excited to be back playing again. And, I think that must be it. When I called you a selfish player I didn't mean anything mean by it Thank you for not finding offense. You're a stand-up dude. For example, I would say Epi is a selfish player. He will act as he wishes no mater what others think. You were like that too imo, just not AS selfish as Epi. Does that make sense?

NOW, I am off to bed.

AHH, linki linki linki. Hey G, you know peewee is on netflix? Haha, my kids find it pretty hilarious

Okay, thank you so much! I understand what you're saying much better now.

"Cheerful" is something I can identify and understand. Yes, I do feel more excited for this game than I have for a game in a while, largely because I've rediscovered a huge passion for the game. I really love mafia; it's the perfect combination of strategy, social interaction, creative writing, and deception, so I find it hard to not play games, but it wasn't until a light bulb moment in HSK that I just hadn't really felt truly passionate about a game in a long time, and that I was more receptive to negative emotions in the past year or so at least of games than I used to be. So I think it's very possible I could be coming across differently in that regard.

Your definition of a selfish player also makes MUCH more sense now, and I like to think that I do act in accordance with what I think is right, but I can fathom why you think my posts this game seem more considerate of others' opinions than I've been in prior games.

I too find your posts much more considerate of new players.
An example is recently you went after a returning player (I think it was blindfaeth) and I found it to be a bit harsh considering he was just returning and you picked on something little (and to me not at all suspicious). You seem to be a lot more understanding to these new players.
It's not that the way you or Epi play is at all wrong, but you both are just less likely to give a new/returning player a pass, and I think that is what she is picking up on. It felt off to me as well, but she is right your break from mafia could be the explanation.

[Tangrowth]

MM, what do you think of other players? Any reads on anyone?

Aether, same question. And hello!

I guess I didn't realize I was acting any differently, but what you folks are saying is making total sense.

Splints, I had the same reaction about changeable votes! Who would have thought? And when I read what you said about BF, I was thinking 'What the hell are you talking about?' and then I remembered that it was Roger Rabbit! Yeah, that suspicion was totally fabricated.

[Tangrowth]

Oh, and same question to everyone, practically. Especially TinyBubbles, since I asked if he was bad, and he never responded!

Still no BWT? I think he knows the game is happening, but I know he's busy with work. Hope to hear from him soon.

Be back more properly later today.

[Golden]

Especially TinyBubbles, since I asked if he was bad, and he never responded!

He is a she.

[Tangrowth]

Especially TinyBubbles, since I asked if he was bad, and he never responded!

He is a she.

Dammit! Sorry, TinyBubbles, I even almost put he/she but thought someone said he somewhere. I must have been mistaken. I apologize! I hate messing up someone's gender. Lol.

Golden, how are you feeling now, have your feelings on anyone changed?

Now off to class.

[Golden]

No MP, sorry.

I did read back even the start of the game again. I thought maybe knowing that DDL didn't know the others might change the way I saw things. It didn't really.

One thing I did note was Jay's theory that if everyone is a high poster, then baddies will be exposed as inconsistent or lag behind in post content. I don't believe that would work here. I think there are too many people who turn up when they can, read what they can, and if threads get too long for them they just don't read properly. We have a community of a lot of people who choose to be very low posters regardless of environment.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

Honestly, to me all the DDL, sanmateo, JJJ and sloonei stuff felt like it was discussing minutiae and it was hard for me to get a lot out of it. I understand and believe in the concept - throw dirt and see what sticks - but I'm not really seeing anything sticking right now. I can't remember who said it, but I agree, that the probability suggests at least one of them would be bad. Which one, I don't know, I'd still lean sanmateo right. And of course we can't lean too heavily on probability they could all be good.

[Golden]

Epignosis is going to hate me starting that paragraph with honestly!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

We've seen a little more from other players now. What do you folks think of Elo, Epi, Golden, G-Man, etc...?

I'll answer myself shortly.

[acrosstheaether]

Oh hello acrosstheaether. Nice to see someone else up so late as well.

Are you as proactive as your RYM comrades?

Can I use the word "comrade" in this game?

"Comrade" is communist jargon. Do you not believe in the free market?

[Elohcin]

For example, I would say Epi is a selfish player. He will act as he wishes no mater what others think.

Deconstruct this please.

Selfishness = Acting as one wishes no matter what others think

Is that really selfishness?

Don't you act the way you want to regardless of what others think? Or do you play Mafia constantly worried what others will think?

I suppose you are right to an extant. But when I feel I have found players that I can trust are civ, I will try to be considerate. And, if I am bad, I will pretend to be considerate :P I don't see you doing that very much. And I chose the word selfish b/c its all I could think of at the time. I am no English teacher. And this is so true...

I tried to elaborate in my first post but I just can't seem to put my finger on it. It just doesn't seem like MP behavior. I've seen his baddie game as a teammate and not as a teammate. I've seen his civ game as well. I am not saying I am even up to 80% sure he is bad, but I do know his behavior seems odd to me and I will be watching him as this game progresses. As for the rest of you who are talking a lot, this is my first game with you. I am going to need more hard core evidence (like voting records) before I convince myself one of you are bad.

Linki: MP, you do talk everything to death, yes But I've never seen you so helpful and supportive of other players. You are kind of a selfish player, does that make sense? Now, not as selfish a player as Epi , but still.

In the first paragraph, you say you can't put your finger on it.

In the second, you say it's because you've never seen me so helpful and supportive of other players.

I have many questions:
1) Which is it? You can't put your finger on it or because you've never seen me so helpful and supportive?
2) If it is the latter, how does that make me bad?
3) I'm really kind of shocked you describe me as a selfish player (don't worry, I'm not offended) because I feel like I try to get discussion going as much as I can. Can you elaborate on what you mean exactly perhaps? I don't really understand.
4) How has my play changed? Just the helpful and supportive? In what ways am I being helpful and supportive any more than usual?

I split your post up since I want to respond to your question in a separate thought.

This is something I want a response to. I could see this sort of little inconsistency in a post being a scum-tell.

I also looked through sanmateo's posts to try to grasp where the early suspicion is coming from and I don't see it. I came out of it liking his casing of DDL more than my own and at the moment my imaginary vote is on the Dragon.

MP called it an inconsistency. Am I not allowed to look at a players behavior which is inconsistent from how I've always seen him play and not wonder - waver on what his alignment could be and why he is acting as he is?

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

Good point.

I thought this could be restated again.


MM, I have found your posts insightful, thank you.


Splints, I am glad to see I am not the only one who sees MP's new-found cheerfulness a bit odd.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

I agree with this.

We've seen a little more from other players now. What do you folks think of Elo, Epi, Golden, G-Man, etc...?

I'll answer myself shortly.

I don't know about you, but I think Elo is civ civ civ hehe

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

first of all: with a GTMH (gun to my head), i think i read The Three Noobs and Their Big Helper (Sloonei, sanmateo, DDL, MP) as more town-seeming than not. i don't much care that base probabilities suggest there may be a scum among the group, because for me the entire point of Mafia is to conquer probability and develop reads. we engaged in these conversations and affected our perspectives of one another. and with a few opportunities to look bad, i don't think any of them did. i can understand suspicion of DDL but i don't agree with it. i don't understand suspicion of sanmateo. Sloonei has been the player i've known for many years now without raising any alarms for me. MP's helpfulness has not surprised me at all, and indeed i think his behavior is very much in line with the way he played on RYM -- in reverse. in that case he was seeking the help of other players frequently due to the differences in culture, and he was always highly grateful to receive it. it makes sense to me that he'd be so helpful in this game immediately after that when the culture has shifted to his homeland. whenever i get to producing some rainbow reads of my own, i suspect all of these players will occupy some shade of green.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

::violent eyeball twitch emoticon::

[Bubbles]

Especially TinyBubbles, since I asked if he was bad, and he never responded!

He is a she.

Dammit! Sorry, TinyBubbles, I even almost put he/she but thought someone said he somewhere. I must have been mistaken. I apologize! I hate messing up someone's gender. Lol.

Golden, how are you feeling now, have your feelings on anyone changed?

Now off to class.

Ah I was going to respond to your question movingpictures but I wasn't sure what to say, I tend to lurk by default on new forums. I didn't want to risk getting lynched early for saying the wrong thing. I'm a good guy, but I don't really expect you to just take my word for it (unless that's how it works around here? In which case I'm sorry I didn't post earlier! Lol)

And no problem about getting my gender wrong, it happens

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Are you the same Bubbles from Game 1 of the champs series on 2+2?

[Bubbles]

Are you the same Bubbles from Game 1 of the champs series on 2+2?

No I've only played one game before, on infj forum, hosted by Heiots. Golden was there :-)

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A few thoughts on Golden:

I've skimmed through. Probably a lot of content I need to sort out in terms of who has post what.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

I haven't been able to glean whether or not the four of you all come from the same place for sure, but my perception is that you all know each other well. I do feel like this day one is culture shock. MP, for instance, feels like he is not playing like himself, but like you guys (I read that as being a genuine outcome of him being excited at people playing a different way and wanting to be part of it).

What I'd like to see now? A bit less of the same few guys talking around each other and a bit more of everyone else giving opinions on the four of them. At least then we have a bigger pool of people to consider their opinions.

So far my perceptions are leaning civ on DDL, and maybe sanmateo could be bad.

And I now see that in the time it took me to write this post, MP agrees with that read. Interesting.

I'm not a fan of sanmateo because I'm not sure why he called out DDL for moving from 'low poster' to 'MP'. He was just following up something MP said that pinged him. Why is that suspicious? And why wouldn't you change your vote from 'what I'd do in the absence of anyone seeming bad' to 'what I'd do now that someone seems bad'. Better off voting the person you think is bad rather than simply voting random between the people you have no civ read on.

this kind of post has been thematic for his (if i use an incorrect pronoun for anyone, please smack me) early game content. he has made appearances when available and sort of thought dumped into the thread within single intermediate-sized posts. this is an understandable method for someone who is trying to keep up with an abnormally paced game while at work. given my prior mentioned theory about scum needing to keep pace to avoid exposure -- which may or may not be a functional strategy here, we'll see -- i at least like that he's made this effort and been thorough about it.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

if our conduct to this point has been that unusual by Syndicate standards, i would urge caution in those who'd perceive it negatively by default. "generating so much discussion on Day 1" is honestly exactly how i'd describe the most productive town approach (indeed, i truly struggle to imagine it being perceived as inherently suspicious). if it's abnormal here, very well. i look forward to seeing the reception we get from the other regulars.

I agree that discussion is the most productive approach. But I didn't mean people would find it inherently suspicious, and don't want to discourage it from occurring. Rather, just that drive by votes can happen here (especially on day one), and visible people are easier targets to manufacture a case on. Right now, I think you guys are already in a place where it would be very easy for others to come in and make the day one conversation only about the four of you, and guarantee by doing that that one of you would be lynched.

I just wanted to get in and discourage that from occurring before it did. If others come in and begin to form opinions about the four of you, perhaps it will begin to help us all form opinions about a wider range of people.

does anyone else have any thoughts which refute or support the assertion he made about "drive-by lynches" being a likely end for one of the active new players? i haven't quite seen that begun to take shape yet, though admittedly the votes are still blank. i ask because he brought it up and it needs to be perceived as either a realistic take on Syndicate play or an exaggerated expression of worry. if it's the latter, i think Golden could rightly be accused of trying to coax high-activity players into slowing down. that'd make this Day 1 easier for the scum by my measure.

No MP, sorry.

I did read back even the start of the game again. I thought maybe knowing that DDL didn't know the others might change the way I saw things. It didn't really.

One thing I did note was Jay's theory that if everyone is a high poster, then baddies will be exposed as inconsistent or lag behind in post content. I don't believe that would work here. I think there are too many people who turn up when they can, read what they can, and if threads get too long for them they just don't read properly. We have a community of a lot of people who choose to be very low posters regardless of environment.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

Honestly, to me all the DDL, sanmateo, JJJ and sloonei stuff felt like it was discussing minutiae and it was hard for me to get a lot out of it. I understand and believe in the concept - throw dirt and see what sticks - but I'm not really seeing anything sticking right now. I can't remember who said it, but I agree, that the probability suggests at least one of them would be bad. Which one, I don't know, I'd still lean sanmateo right. And of course we can't lean too heavily on probability they could all be good.

the one minor gripe i might make about Golden's posts to this point (which aren't dependent upon the answers given by others like the one above) is that despite his decent thoroughness he hasn't provided many reads. he has expressed some degree of suspicion of sanmateo, but it would surprise me if that's really all he was able to draw from the early downpour of posts -- especially considering his own endorsement of the style we noobs have employed so far.

~~~

generally i would call him a slightly-better-than-null read right now, but i'd still like for him to answer to these points when time permits.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Are you the same Bubbles from Game 1 of the champs series on 2+2?

No I've only played one game before, on infj forum, hosted by Heiots. Golden was there :-)

oh, okay. well it's good to have you aboard!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

meh i have to leave for work. i'll do my best to check the game on my phone once or twice and provide more substantive reads when i return.

[Bubbles]

Are you the same Bubbles from Game 1 of the champs series on 2+2?

No I've only played one game before, on infj forum, hosted by Heiots. Golden was there :-)

oh, okay. well it's good to have you aboard!

Thank you! Glad to be here

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I se people quoting this post over and over so I'm gonna reply to it:

I think Dragon is bad news. He's leaving himself little outs that he can use later.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 76#p142976

That post right there says he isn't voting anyone because ten people haven't talked.

Now that's an odd thing to say, isn't it? I get the culture is different, but if he knows the votes can't be changed, then what difference does it make if over half of the player base hasn't posted? Why comment on the fact? Isn't that true for everyone?

I like the cut of JaggedJimmyJay's Jib. He gets a pass from me Day 1. Bravo.

I've explained it before, but it seems like I'll have to explain again. It's not that I'm leaving outs to use later. It's that I don't see the point in tunneling my suspicions a player after I've already questioned them and got no further reason to suspect them. I'd rather say what I think and then move to the next target. Tunneling on someone without a good reason is, in my view, stupid. And counter-productive, because it keeps the other 17 players free of suspicion.

And you want to know why I commented on the votes thing? Because someone else was asking about another comment of mine related to what votes I'd make. Look, as much as I'd like to, I can't answer to the one million questions people ask me and at the same time make every answer productive to the game in some way. Sometimes my posts are nothing more than a way to defend myself.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

I find this to be counter-productive, personally. The goal of this game is not to stay alive, it is to catch scum. A few sacrifices are unfortunate, but are needed. If everyone plays as well as they can, in theory they'll have a better chance of finding scum because they'll force them to talk more and put them in a higher number of difficult situations.

I see a similar problem in my forum. Everyone is worried about having a perfect scum meta that makes them unreadable, but that comes at the price of being terrible townies who don't post too much and don't engage in discussions. Which is stupid because if you're going to be townie more than half of the time, you should develop a strong town meta and then try to keep up with it when you're scum, not the opposite. At least that's what I try to do.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

one general observation i'd like to make before i leave: many of the accusations being leveled against DDL can also be leveled against me, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. i have also called players suspicious for frivolous reasons and then quickly moved on from the accusations when i was satisfied with responses. i even said to DDL, "you're scum." and have since called him more of a town read. so what's the difference between he and i?

moreover, it is notable that Epi was critical of DDL and complimentary of me in the same post. of all the players to get involved with this game so far, i don't think anyone has been playing more similarly to me than DDL has been.

[fingersplints]

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

BR's defense of MP definitely caught my eye. Especially in a one mafia set up. If she was bad, I mean he could be a indy but she would know he was more likely to be good.

@JJJ - Golden hasn't played mafia in years, and recently returned. I think he's been killed relatively early in all the games since his return, so that could be why he thinks new players are in danger of being lynched early. Personally, unless one of you slips up bad or something, I do not plan on voting for any of you.

[Marmot]

MM, what do you think of other players? Any reads on anyone?

Aether, same question. And hello!

I guess I didn't realize I was acting any differently, but what you folks are saying is making total sense.

Splints, I had the same reaction about changeable votes! Who would have thought? And when I read what you said about BF, I was thinking 'What the hell are you talking about?' and then I remembered that it was Roger Rabbit! Yeah, that suspicion was totally fabricated.

Yes! As I said already, I disagree with Golden about sanmateo. I don't think he/she is bad.

Dragon D. Luffy would get my vote if I placed it right now.

In fact, I'd suggest that what Jay has experienced is a culture in which mostly the baddies try to look good. In contrast, I think the practice that has developed more strongly here (and at the contributing sites that make up 'here') is that the civilians try to look a bit bad, to avoid being NKed.

::violent eyeball twitch emoticon::

It's true. Unfortunately, at the Syndicate, you cannot win a game as a civilian unless you survive to the end of the game, or you have some other secret win condition that is fulfilled. Thus, survival is important to civilians, as well as finding mafia.

[Marmot]

We've seen a little more from other players now. What do you folks think of Elo, Epi, Golden, G-Man, etc...?

I'll answer myself shortly.

I don't know about you, but I think Elo is civ civ civ hehe

Anyway, I am leaning civ on Epi, Golden, MM, Splints, and Jimmy. I am not sure about San, Sloo, DDL, MP, and BR.

Obligatory reads list?

A few thoughts on Golden:

I've skimmed through. Probably a lot of content I need to sort out in terms of who has post what.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

I haven't been able to glean whether or not the four of you all come from the same place for sure, but my perception is that you all know each other well. I do feel like this day one is culture shock. MP, for instance, feels like he is not playing like himself, but like you guys (I read that as being a genuine outcome of him being excited at people playing a different way and wanting to be part of it).

What I'd like to see now? A bit less of the same few guys talking around each other and a bit more of everyone else giving opinions on the four of them. At least then we have a bigger pool of people to consider their opinions.

So far my perceptions are leaning civ on DDL, and maybe sanmateo could be bad.

And I now see that in the time it took me to write this post, MP agrees with that read. Interesting.

I'm not a fan of sanmateo because I'm not sure why he called out DDL for moving from 'low poster' to 'MP'. He was just following up something MP said that pinged him. Why is that suspicious? And why wouldn't you change your vote from 'what I'd do in the absence of anyone seeming bad' to 'what I'd do now that someone seems bad'. Better off voting the person you think is bad rather than simply voting random between the people you have no civ read on.

this kind of post has been thematic for his (if i use an incorrect pronoun for anyone, please smack me) early game content. he has made appearances when available and sort of thought dumped into the thread within single intermediate-sized posts. this is an understandable method for someone who is trying to keep up with an abnormally paced game while at work. given my prior mentioned theory about scum needing to keep pace to avoid exposure -- which may or may not be a functional strategy here, we'll see -- i at least like that he's made this effort and been thorough about it.

My thoughts so far - a few newbies (DDL, JJJ, sanmateo, sloonei) are running straight into a drive by lynch of one of them. Not that I support that, I just feel like it's what you risk by generating so much discussion here on day one.

if our conduct to this point has been that unusual by Syndicate standards, i would urge caution in those who'd perceive it negatively by default. "generating so much discussion on Day 1" is honestly exactly how i'd describe the most productive town approach (indeed, i truly struggle to imagine it being perceived as inherently suspicious). if it's abnormal here, very well. i look forward to seeing the reception we get from the other regulars.

I agree that discussion is the most productive approach. But I didn't mean people would find it inherently suspicious, and don't want to discourage it from occurring. Rather, just that drive by votes can happen here (especially on day one), and visible people are easier targets to manufacture a case on. Right now, I think you guys are already in a place where it would be very easy for others to come in and make the day one conversation only about the four of you, and guarantee by doing that that one of you would be lynched.

I just wanted to get in and discourage that from occurring before it did. If others come in and begin to form opinions about the four of you, perhaps it will begin to help us all form opinions about a wider range of people.

does anyone else have any thoughts which refute or support the assertion he made about "drive-by lynches" being a likely end for one of the active new players? i haven't quite seen that begun to take shape yet, though admittedly the votes are still blank. i ask because he brought it up and it needs to be perceived as either a realistic take on Syndicate play or an exaggerated expression of worry. if it's the latter, i think Golden could rightly be accused of trying to coax high-activity players into slowing down. that'd make this Day 1 easier for the scum by my measure.

I felt it was an accurate description of Syndicate style. Because we have a lot of low posters, if there is a ton of content being posted into the thread, they will often skim through, and just vote on a simple gutread. That could be the popular lynch wagon at the time. It could be from just a single post (or vote) standing out to them. But as a low poster skimming the thread, it's far easier to find something to pick on from a high poster than a fellow low poster.

So I believe that Golden's statement regarding drive-by lynching is spot-on. I am usually one of the higher posters in games here, and am often a victim of such.