Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

#2101

I think people who vote BWT based in part on his Day 1 content including the "go civs" comment bear some obligation to comment on his Day 2 content. He has provided quite a bit of it and it needs to be acknowledged one way or another.

#2102

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think people who vote BWT based in part on his Day 1 content including the "go civs" comment bear some obligation to comment on his Day 2 content. He has provided quite a bit of it and it needs to be acknowledged one way or another.

I agree, and I still demand explanation from BWT voters, because I've seen BWT as consistently genuine this game.

#2103

Sorsha wrote:
nutella wrote:Okay, that's totally fair. I have read his responses as genuine for the most part but I can definitely get where you're coming from. I'm inclined to think he's an unrecruited who's not devoting much effort to playing the game at this point.

linki @ Roxy: I'm looking through your posts and I see no explanation. In fact I do not see mention of BWT besides asking his D1 voters whether they still suspect him or not. The only thing I see is your first post after the EOD when you comment on BWT's "Go Civs" comment -- and that is right after you say you probably would not have voted for him because he is "generally wacky". Is the "go civvies" comment your sole reason for suspecting he was recruited? Or did I miss something else in your posts, because I don't see any more mention of suspecting him between then and your vote.
I went back and looked through Roxys posts for her bwt suspicion as well and found the same as you....

....and your point is......?

#2104

I'm going with tiny bubbles . Come play with us!

#2105

Didn't think I'd be back but I made it back. I see this was said about me:

S~V~S wrote:
Ricochet wrote:G-Man's vote for TH seems a bit weak sauce for me, especially given that it's relatively fixed for the day, since he might have return. I get the "he's on my no-read list from which I intended to vote someone" more than the "let's test out if Speaker is genuine or ignorable". I've mentioned that it's highly unlikely the Speaker got to check and inform on his check in the same first Night of the game. When do we really test out what a messenger suspects? If he's spot on about TH being, let's say, a recruited baddie (aka the purest form of baddie at this point), he passes the test and receive eternal cred, and if he's wrong about TH being anything, we discret him, after just one night, for the rest of the game? This is even more interesting coming from G-Man who was Messenger in his last game.

All of the votes so far for him have pretty weak reasonings. Bubbles said nothing whatosever on the matter. MM also acts like the Speaker was sent from Heavens. Also @linki: aapje just came in fact with way better reads for suspecting TH, nevertheless all those were not reasons any of TH's voters brought up so far for voting him.
This pretty much sums up how I feel about the TH votes. I find that remark he made to be brow raising, but not enough to merit a vote, gossip or not. TH is a strong player, and I am not ready to experiment on him just yet. I have not seen anything from my day one vote, Bullz, to alarm me so i doubt I will vote for him again today, although i plan to keep an eye on him. He plays a pretty seamless recruited game in my experience.

I think I will reread some of these peoples posts, but I am still really highly disturbed by Golden, tbh. It is like he's a pod person Golden, lol.

Linki @BWT, I did not vote for you, or particularly think you were bad Day One; why do you think I did?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
G-Man wrote:I won't be back before the poll closes, so here goes:

VOTES TURNIP HEAD

He's on my list of players who I don't have a read on and lynching him could be a test of whether or not to ignore future messages from the Speaker of Serenity.
This is a valid example of someone flicking the booger of responsibility onto the Speaker of Serenity. G-Man, the TH vote is yours -- either own it or drop it. Moreover, this logic disregards the very real possibility that the Speaker is merely hunching on Turnip and doesn't actually know anything. If the call for his lynch turns out ill-advised, that would say nothing about the Speaker other than "he/she called for the lynch of the wrong person".

Unless you think that player might have privileged information and is allowed by the hosts to exploit it in such an obvious manner as this. I don't think that.

So, yeah. I cast a mostly meaningless and lazy vote. I don't give much credence to any gossip role ever until they turn out to be consistently right. Gossip roles should be taken with a grain of salt. Really, I voted for Turnip Head because a) he was on my list of people for whom I have no feel yet and b) it created a three-way tie. I had to vote and clean up for the day at the office so I could make it to a doctor's appointment after work. Playing from 30,000 feet like I presently am, I'm keeping up with the thread but really only noting the big things. Kudos to those of you who can hit the micro-analysis but I have to play the macro-game this time around. That leaves me to be intentionally blendy by posting just enough to show I care but still mostly resigning myself to being a spectator.

If you prefer, I'd happily move my vote to someone else, so long as that someone else is not Golden the Coward

because his ballsy play on getting Epi killed gets him a free pass from me this day. There are probably a few other people I don't want to see lynched and most of them aren't even in the cross-hairs here.

#2106

Just wanted to quickly pop in while I have a moment and clarify my last post.

SVS says I did not act with interests of the group at heart.

I made my ploy against epi because it was in my self-interest but also, as I've reiterated several times, I do not think he was civilian, and would not have made my move if I thought otherwise. I was not exclusively focussed on my own self-interest which I think is now a misperception.

Sometimes two things are true at once. I made the move I did specifically because I think epi being dead was in my self-interest. But even so, I would not have made the move if not for also believing he was not civ.

#2107

Roxy, would you agree that it's important for a player to have substantive supporting content in his/her post history which clearly explains why any eventual final vote has been placed?

**http://www.last.fm/user/nutella23** · #2108

Roxy wrote:
nutella wrote:Okay, that's totally fair. I have read his responses as genuine for the most part but I can definitely get where you're coming from. I'm inclined to think he's an unrecruited who's not devoting much effort to playing the game at this point.

linki @ Roxy: I'm looking through your posts and I see no explanation. In fact I do not see mention of BWT besides asking his D1 voters whether they still suspect him or not. The only thing I see is your first post after the EOD when you comment on BWT's "Go Civs" comment -- and that is right after you say you probably would not have voted for him because he is "generally wacky". Is the "go civvies" comment your sole reason for suspecting he was recruited? Or did I miss something else in your posts, because I don't see any more mention of suspecting him between then and your vote.
Well then you did see it. That post felt unnatural to me. I stated something about and despite being in the thread and claimed to have read he never even mentioned it.

I don't mean to no u but your vote for Bass to prod him after not really mentioning him before is sort of the same thing - just saying hey I think you could be bad - show me that you are not.

Just catching up and posting as I go

Sorry, "not really mentioning him before"? What? I voted for Bass on Day 1 after explicitly stating that I found him suspicious because of the "crazy theory" post. My vote for him today is consistent with that suspicion and because at that point he had not even posted again since then to reply/defend. Not at all like your vote for BWT. You mentioned that one post briefly (and to be fair you didn't even direct your comment at him to elicit a response), made a couple other posts in between in which you didn't bring up his name at all (except indirectly to, ironically enough, call out those who had voted for him), and then suddenly announced your vote without explaining it or even calling back to that one post.

#2109

Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?

#2110

Bullzeye wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:He had to answer you - if he'd ignored it he'd have looked even worse. He just feels so blendy and shady to me right now, like he's drawn himself some attention he wished he didn't have and now he's trying to hide from it. I don't know if I'm explaining how I feel very well - I've been awake for 18 hours after 3 hours of sleep. His answer to you just really caught my eye in a huge way.
I understand your perspective and in many ways share it. I think we need to ask ourselves these questions to sort out the matter of Bass on Day 2:

1.) If Bass's response wasn't satisfactory, then what would a satisfactory response have looked like?

.....a.) Is the response you're imagining a reasonable expectation for a player with so few posts?

.....b.) Should we demand a player who has had limited time in the thread and faced a number of accusers have thoroughly developed reads on a lot of other players?

.....c.) Does his "no u" inclination indicate paranoia (a town tell) or deflection (a mafia tell)?

The factor which is most preventing me from giving Bass a break is that in both games I've played with him he's been mafia -- and he's behaved quite a lot like he has in this game so far.
1. If you asked me to pick 3-5 random players, I'd grab the last 3-5 posters and have a quick glance over their posts. You'd see a sentence or three of my first instincts and some kind of conclusion based on what I'd read.

a. Why shouldn't it be when he has clearly had time in the past couple of hours?

b. No. But it didn't take me long to make that 8 opinion post and for half the people on there I had to give them a good look. I hadn't really put much thought at all into Nutella, Aapje, Timmer, or Rey. Now I have vague opinions on all of them.

c. Paranoia isn't a town tell IMO. Baddies have more to be paranoid about.

It's 3am. I don't feel good at all about Bass. His responses have only made me feel worse. Therefore I'm: *Voting Bass*

I disagree entirely with the highlighted portion. I think the natural response, while I might list some cursory comments off the top of my head, I would also have commented about being put under pressure to list stuff on the spot. I mean I said outright earlier that I was having trouble feeling negative feelings about anyone. Instead he just grabbed a few people and listed a bunch of suspicions on them, it doesn't seem like a natural response to me.

#2111

TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?

Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?

#2112

It's not that I don't think it's ballsy; I think it is uncharacteristic to the point of lunacy.

And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.

#2113

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?

neutral

**http://www.last.fm/user/nutella23** · #2114

The vote spread/close tallies are a little concerning considering how many roles have vote manip powers in this position... we really have no way of knowing the correct tally and with a few candidates being so close, any one of them could end up being lynched.

#2115

Spoiler: show

Spacedaisy, Russ said in Angry Birds that he asked to be replaced in this game.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay, noted, thanks.

I'll come up with a Rainbow List after I finish this post.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay, you're exactly right. I don't know why anyone would want to recruit me. I know they don't have that much of a choice with more recent contests (and probably ones going forward), but I really haven't understand why people are voting me.

Spoiler: show

Golden, I agree 100% re: this observation with BWT. I find his post (as well as his conduct in general) genuine as well.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I am more suspicious of the MP voters than I am of the average random participant. This post by Scotty troubles me:

Scotty wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I have been quite clear in the fact that I vacationing at the beach until tiesday being relentless pestered by small children and trying to keep up on my phone. I'm sorry that I have been able to weigh in on every topic of discussion, but at least I am not missing votes. I am basing my votes on pings as I see them until I get back. If that makes me a liability, then don't recruit me to your team.
You're right. I'm sorry as well. I understand why you think I've overreacted because I have. I really don't want to get lynched on D2 over baseless reasons this game. Surely you can relate to being an easy lynch.

I'll move my vote.
Make sure you bold it!

linki- that goes for you too MM!

I think MP's frustrations are genuine, but I think they are coming different angles. Angry Birds shouldn't be an excuse here, and I actually don't see the passive-aggressiveness he's expressing via Rico and llama, but hey man, everybody's got something going on. It's just whooshing right over my head. Last time I saw MP this wound up was in Watchmen, and that was when he was taking a bit of heat before the vote. This, however, doesn't seem like heat for a vote, but for a myriad of personal semantic and personal reasons. He was frustrated civ in that game, but I don't know if I read that here.

Y'all ever tried crack cocaine? I was hanging out on the street yesterday with a buddy who had recently been dumped and this homeless man started talking with us about the miracles of crack. He invited us to his lair between buildings to try some, and my buddy felt like he had nothing better to do. So he joined in while I went to the pharmacy to get some mango spears. The line there had only 2 people but took like 10 minutes- no kidding!! - and by the time I got back, my buddy had already left with a girl he had met at the bodega nearby, homeless man was nowhere to be seen. This morning he texted and said he had a crazy night, and it was the best decision of his life. Those mango spears were in so very ripe and in season and I DEVOURED them as well . All in all, a good night had by all!

Don't be afraid to try something new, MP. You do you. I know you are stressed out, and I get that feel. But you may want to check that at the door, since, to me anyway, it doesn't do your civ cred- in this game at least- any favors.
That first true paragraph is all over the place. Scotty reads MP's frustration as genuine (first highlight), but not as civilian genuine -- I view this distinction dubiously. That isn't because I don't think there can be a distinction, there can. It's because I don't follow the logic Scotty has laid out to arrive at that conclusion. He drew the comparison to frustration exhibited by MP in Watchmen (I did not follow this game closely), referencing the reasons MP was taking heat rather than MP's actual behavior. This means Scotty's interest lies in the accusations being leveled upon MP and not in MP's responses to them -- that's the wrong place to focus.

JaggedJimmyJay, I'm glad you made this observation re: Scotty's post. It didn't seem like the civilian Scotty I knew, but I realize most everyone is neutral, and it's been hard for me to feel as though I can legitimately analyze and pick apart my accusers, since I often exhibit tunnel vision against players that suspect me, a fact I fully recognize.

I'm intrigued to see Scotty's response when he returns to the game.

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:Hey guys, not going to be around much if at all to defend myself before the night post goes in, so its time for the legacy post in case I come back to find I'm lynched.

Given his vote today, I'm struggling to find rey genuine. That's the second day he has come in and voted late on me in a row based on some small point out of the blue. He claims that the way to find baddies is to look at their motivations not their actions, but he has completely ignored doing any thinking about MY motivations for either of his votes. He has tended to call my defences semantics.

I think bass is someone you should definitely be lynching. I've probably underplayed today how sensible I think a bass lynch would be.

I agree with others who think Dom is being shady about his thoughts, and I tihnk people should be asking him to explain them more.

I'm reading bwt, bea, roxy, SVS, JJ, nutella, unfurl, bullz as very genuine.

Everyone else you could call my read neutral.

linki @rey - whatever. I did not say your vote for me was personal or try to imply it. People have called me a lot of things this game. Call me a liar if you want. I'll just continue to say what I have to say. Anyone who knows me well knows that I do not lie about stuff like emotions, and that my firm belief is 1) there is no legitimate reason why any baddie would ever get benefit from doing so (and if they did get some short term benefit, it gets held against them forever) and 2) That lying about trivial things that you don't need to lie about is stupid no matter what your affiliation is. I feel like you know me well enough, but I recognise there has been a long break.

This game has taken a big emotional toll on me so far and I'm finding it exhausting. I have no idea who has posted the most but I must be up there, and 90% of it has been me on the defence. I go out to try and actually figure out who the baddies are, immediately get some bullshit suspicion from epi, and basically I've never been able to let up on defence since. I don't want to keep it up. So, if people are honestly going to go after me day after day after day for some conduct which I think makes literally no sense in terms of it making me bad, then there isn't much I can do about it.

linki @rey again - why does that not look good for me either? Honestly is my core value. There is nothing I think is further from the truth than that mafia is a game of lying. It isn't. It's a game of lying as little as possible.

linki @rey again - oh no, two also's, you must be bad.

Golden, I can 100% relate with you this game. This game has taken a ridiculous emotional toll on me as well, especially since this past weekend I had perhaps my biggest mental and emotional breakdown I've had in my entire PhD program tenure. Thankfully, today I've felt much more like my normal self.

I do NOT understand all of the Golden bashing and will do anything to keep him alive in this game, because I firmly believe Golden is a neutral and has been genuine with all of his thoughts this game.

I also see absolutely nothing wrong with his move against Epi, especially as someone who has been on the receiving end of his antics before. S~V~S and others, seriously try to put yourself in Golden's shoes, and then rethink his actions with an open mind. I don't see it as uncharacteristic at all. I NKed Epi in N1 of Economics, regardless of whether he was mafia, because I wanted him gone like Golden wanted Epi gone here. I can absolutely relate to Golden's feelings as he's expressed them.

Spoiler: show

Llama, don't sweat it, buddy. I look forward to you reentering the game soon.

Spoiler: show

Rico, thanks for being understand. I'm willing to move on as well and start a completely new opinion of you this game. Anything I was thinking of you earlier was entirely unfair. I appreciate the sentiment.

Spoiler: show

JaggedJimmyJay, to answer your questions about Bass's response:

1) It very much appears to me as though Bass's thoughts on practically everyone he's talked about this game, myself included, are fabricated, due to a lack of adequate and reasonable explanation for why he thinks what he does, and completely lacking a willingness to listen. In addition, I agree with Bullzeye that Bass picked players that were easiest to commit to reads on, and such reads were far from truly substantive. Bass isn't exactly a verbose kind of guy, but if he actually cared, I'd expect more of an honest attempt from him to connect with other players, listen to them, and better explain his thoughts on players with detailed reasons, especially since I'd say he's proven himself capable of these before. It seems like he picked the players out of thin air and tried to come up with something to say about them, especially since he's indicated no such inclinations or thoughts previously at all, instead focusing entirely on me every time he's popped into the thread until just recently.

1a) Yes.

1b) Depends on what you mean by "a lot", but I think so.

1c) Deflection.

At this stage, I could see Bass as a neutral, or a mafia, but not as a civilian at all. I heavily support his lynch, since Golden is the only other player who is in the hot seat at the moment.

#2116

S~V~S wrote:And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

I don't mean to request proof of your entire history playing with Golden. I only hoped for a specific example you can recall in which a neutrally-aligned Golden with the potential to be recruited by either side was distinctly pro-civilian in his strategy.

#2117

S~V~S wrote:It's not that I don't think it's ballsy; I think it is uncharacteristic to the point of lunacy.

And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.

You and these others seriously thought Epignosis was a civilian recruiter or the first recruited?

I want to see substantiation for this because I do not remember this conversation.

#2118

TinyBubbles wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?
neutral

Would you rather lynch Turnip Head than Golden or Bass?

#2119

nutella wrote:The vote spread/close tallies are a little concerning considering how many roles have vote manip powers in this position... we really have no way of knowing the correct tally and with a few candidates being so close, any one of them could end up being lynched.

I agree, and I highly implore anyone casting off votes at this point to consider placing them on Bass.

#2120

MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:It's not that I don't think it's ballsy; I think it is uncharacteristic to the point of lunacy.

And JJJ, ask Golden if my assessment is not correct, since you want proof of five years of accumulated experience (albeit that part of it involved hiatuses) of Goldens gameplay. I have NEVER seen civ Golden make a selfish move, and i am hard put to think of a time Indy Golden did so. I might admire this move in some players; but not in Golden. It feels false and it feels bad.

Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.
You and these others seriously thought Epignosis was a civilian recruiter or the first recruited?

I want to see substantiation for this because I do not remember this conversation.

It was not a conversation, but numerous people said they thought it was civ on civ; I recall no one saying they thought Epi was bad except Golden. And I guess I should have said civ or neutral. But I said civ since I recall several people saying they thought it to be civ on civ.

#2121

Noted, S~V~S, thanks.

**http://www.last.fm/user/nutella23** · #2122

I was one of the people who said Golden vs Epi looked "civ on civ" but I really meant "civ-or-neutral/unrecruited on civ-or-neutral/unrecruited". For the record.

#2123

MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:[snip]
Linki @ Golden~ but everyone else who expressed an opinion DID think he was a civ. And you disregarded us totally.
You and these others seriously thought Epignosis was a civilian recruiter or the first recruited?

I want to see substantiation for this because I do not remember this conversation.

I didn't think Epig was a civ, though SVS saying I thought that makes me think maybe I should think that...

I thought he was neutral.

(linki: I'll agree that Epi vs. Golden felt like neut on neut.)

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?
neutral
Would you rather lynch Turnip Head than Golden or Bass?

I'm interested in the answer to this as well.

#2124

S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.

#2125

I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.

I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.

#2126

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:Hey all i've been reeeeeally busy and just havent had time to read all posts,sorry. i'm willing to change my vote from turniphead to either golden or bass since that's where things seem to be headed.. golden hasn't seemed totally his upfront self like from previous games, it's giving me goosebumps. what's the case against bass though?
Bubbles, what do you think about Bass, right now, before being presented with any case?
neutral
Would you rather lynch Turnip Head than Golden or Bass?

i'd rather vote for someone who's actually going to be lynched, right now turniphead doesn't look like much of a target. it would be a wasted vote to stay with him. what are most people's reason for voting bass? and why did you go with scotty? (on that note why did scotty vote himself?!)

#2127

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.

I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.

That's fair enough; I understand why she feels the way she does as well. I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.

#2128

Now, does that mean I won't necessarily go after Golden later if I feel our interests no longer align? No fucking way.

#2129

MovingPictures07 wrote:I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.

Who do you think should be scrutinized?

#2130

MovingPictures07 wrote:
nutella wrote:The vote spread/close tallies are a little concerning considering how many roles have vote manip powers in this position... we really have no way of knowing the correct tally and with a few candidates being so close, any one of them could end up being lynched.
I agree, and I highly implore anyone casting off votes at this point to consider placing them on Bass.

Okay but know that my vote switch has very little to do with any suspicion of Bass and I am in no way "flicking the booger" on you either. I'll vote to spread the vote out a little for science and to help keep Golden around for at least one more day.

VOTE CHANGED TO BASS

#2131

MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.

I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

#2132

TinyBubbles wrote:i'd rather vote for someone who's actually going to be lynched, right now turniphead doesn't look like much of a target. it would be a wasted vote to stay with him. what are most people's reason for voting bass? and why did you go with scotty? (on that note why did scotty vote himself?!)

I described my concern about Scotty here. He won't be my final vote though.

Bass is viewed as suspicious because many people feel he has been mal-intended in his aggression against MP and otherwise evasive in his recent content. You should review his posts and state your own perspective.

Would you be willing to rally a bandwagon against Turnip Head? Do you want that man dead? Do the hairs on your head stand on end each moment his heart is allowed another beat?

#2133

MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.

I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.
That's fair enough; I understand why she feels the way she does as well. I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.

golden always seems to attract a lot of enmity in every game, i feel like it's because he's just a good player that can "play" at mafia/civ equally well, better than most. it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.

i might vote him anyway despite what i said, because i don't have much info to go on at all with bass.

#2134

Turnip Head wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.
Who do you think should be scrutinized?

Well, everyone, in theory, but let's just take a look at some folks:

Bass - I've made my thoughts well known there, and to be fair, he is being scrutinized.
Canucklehead - Daisy made an interesting point about Canuck openly playing more neutral than even me, Golden, and timmer, yet no one is really paying her any attention.
Devin - I love the guy, but he's hardly posted any substantive content, and failed to deliver on questions I asked him from early in the game. What do folks think of him?
DFaraday - What do players think of him?
DharmaHelper - I think Jay made a good point that DH has been posting plenty but been constantly playing "catch up". Has anyone said anything about DH's Day 2 behavior yet?
DisgruntledPorcupine - Can anyone really say they think Golden deserves to be lynched over DP? No offense to DP, but come on.

And that's just looking at the top third or so of the player list. Took me like 2 minutes.

#2135

G-Man wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
nutella wrote:The vote spread/close tallies are a little concerning considering how many roles have vote manip powers in this position... we really have no way of knowing the correct tally and with a few candidates being so close, any one of them could end up being lynched.
I agree, and I highly implore anyone casting off votes at this point to consider placing them on Bass.
Okay but know that my vote switch has very little to do with any suspicion of Bass and I am in no way "flicking the booger" on you either. I'll vote to spread the vote out a little for science and to help keep Golden around for at least one more day.

VOTE CHANGED TO BASS

Duly noted, good sir.

#2136

S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

To be precise, i feel he is behaving contrary to the non-baddie standard he sets for HIMSELF. I did not set him this standard; he did, and he knows I am right is saying so.

#2137

S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

Yeah, I understand exactly that's where you're coming from, and I don't even disagree with that. I think it's because he's unrecruited, as he's claimed. I don't think it's because he's a recruited mafia.

#2138

S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?

I feel like Golden is playing similar to how he started out in HSK actually, sparring with Epignosis and all. He just took it... a little further this time. I've only seen Golden bad in one game, when he subbed back into Economics, and he played nothing like he is here. He was calm and collected and attracted no attention.

#2139

TinyBubbles wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.

I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.
That's fair enough; I understand why she feels the way she does as well. I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.
golden always seems to attract a lot of enmity in every game, i feel like it's because he's just a good player that can "play" at mafia/civ equally well, better than most. it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.

i might vote him anyway despite what i said, because i don't have much info to go on at all with bass.

You're giving players an incentive to not play the game. I don't like that.

#2140

Not to mention that there's plenty to judge Bass by. What kind of answer is that?

#2141

TinyBubbles wrote:it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.

That was me! I was joking.

#2142

Turnip Head wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?
I feel like Golden is playing similar to how he started out in HSK actually, sparring with Epignosis and all. He just took it... a little further this time. I've only seen Golden bad in one game, when he subbed back into Economics, and he played nothing like he is here. He was calm and collected and attracted no attention.

QFT

I still have nightmares of that game, between G-Man masquerading as The Joker and Golden the super secret most bad of all the baddies, lurking in the shadows.

#2143

S~V~S wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?
To be precise, i feel he is behaving contrary to the non-baddie standard he sets for HIMSELF. I did not set him this standard; he did, and he knows I am right is saying so.

Does a self-set standard become more reasonable by default merely for being self-set? Should Golden be held to that standard in every game on threat of brutal, cold-blooded murder simply because he demands a lot of himself in Mafia games past?

I like to ask rhetorical questions.

The reason I am unconvinced here is that I feel the accusations being stuck on Golden could easily be rearranged to include my own username instead -- for those paying close attention.

#2144

I suddenly feel like I should be paying more attention to Jay

#2145

Turnip Head wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?
I feel like Golden is playing similar to how he started out in HSK actually, sparring with Epignosis and all. He just took it... a little further this time. I've only seen Golden bad in one game, when he subbed back into Economics, and he played nothing like he is here. He was calm and collected and attracted no attention.

I never said he is playing like a baddie. I said he is not playing like civ-centric Golden. What if he decides I am incompatible with him? Or you? I am flabbergasted that anyone is actually defending this.

I believe that he killed Epi and is going for the WIFOM. And if Bass does not flip bad, I will wonder about the hard push for him at this point.

#2146

Turnip Head wrote:I suddenly feel like I should be paying more attention to Jay

I just want to be noticed.

Spoiler: show

#2147

MovingPictures07 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:S~V~S, to elaborate, I suppose I just feel as though you're putting Golden up to an expectation that is unreasonable, considering he has been quite open about playing a neutral game, and that Epi was a serious threat to Golden's immediate livelihood. I think it's key to note how emotionally-charged Golden's play has been this game, due to being under constant defense for his well being, and from Epi for a while at that.
I feel his behavior in this game is contrary to his non-baddie meta as I know it.

Do you better understand it put like that?
I feel like Golden is playing similar to how he started out in HSK actually, sparring with Epignosis and all. He just took it... a little further this time. I've only seen Golden bad in one game, when he subbed back into Economics, and he played nothing like he is here. He was calm and collected and attracted no attention.
QFT

I still have nightmares of that game, between G-Man masquerading as The Joker and Golden the super secret most bad of all the baddies, lurking in the shadows.

What was wrong with my Joker posts? I loved making those.

#2148

MovingPictures07 wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I perceived the Day 1 duel between Epignosis and Golden to be neutral-neutral, which is an uninspired read because nearly every interaction on Day 1 was neutral-neutral. This game is unique though, and I think a perspective of neutral-neutral -- one that is distinctly espoused as a read -- is akin to reading an interaction as civilian-civilian in a more typical game. In this regard I understand S~V~S's perspective about Epi in the context of the Day 1 discussion.

I don't think this reflects poorly on Golden, but I understand why S~V~S is pursuing this angle.
That's fair enough; I understand why she feels the way she does as well. I just am trying to help her see it from another perspective, since Golden's posts have just been oozing sincerity to me, and I feel he is being over scrutinized over other players.

golden always seems to attract a lot of enmity in every game, i feel like it's because he's just a good player that can "play" at mafia/civ equally well, better than most. it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.

i might vote him anyway despite what i said, because i don't have much info to go on at all with bass.

You're giving players an incentive to not play the game. I don't like that.

i didn't mean that! reading over bass's posts now

#2149

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:I suddenly feel like I should be paying more attention to Jay
I just want to be noticed.

Spoiler: show

You need to freak out more. That gets the attention

#2150

Turnip Head wrote:
TinyBubbles wrote:it's ironically kind of a disadvantage, he has to work at convincing people of his civ ness more than most, i remember reading some time ago he should be lynched early just to be safe, which isn't fair.
That was me! I was joking.

you were? ah, my apologies then! but i still believe golden gets scrutinized more than most

Game End!