RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Rainbow list for the mafia team:

Epignosis
leetic
Quin 2.0
Sloonei

insertnamehere
Metalmarsh89

DrWilgy 2.0
reywaS

Rainbow list for the serial killer:

Sloonei
Quin 2.0
leetic
DrWilgy 2.0

Epignosis
reywaS

Metalmarsh89
insertnamehere

Like I said earlier: I think killing a mafioso is a bigger priority today, and it's also more likely to come to fruition (unless y'all shrink into a JJJ lynch).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Note: the fact that we've been babbling about the SK this long without someone protesting the assumption that one exists makes me think one exists. I'd expect a vigilante to say something.

[Quin]

I generally agree with your reasons to town read certain players, 3J.

I'll state the reasons I can think of to read each player as town (other than those I can't do so for). I'd welcome anyone who disagrees with any point made to state your disagreement. I acknowledge that I could be town reading the wrong person somewhere, and dialogue can help hash that out if so.

Epignosis -- He didn't merely contribute to the Scotty lynch, he did so while pursuing a unique element of suspicion. He wasn't involved with the content that Sloonei and Golden among others found problematic, he was in his own bubble. That strikes me as both typical of a town Epignosis, and just being unlikely team mate behavior in general.

I agree. I think pursuing angles outside of the scope of what most people were talking about is a good look for him.

insertnamehere -- Every argument I've had with him (and I've observed between he and Golden) is reminiscent of arguments we've already had in prior games where INH turned out to be town.

As far as meta reads go, I guess I'm cool with this.

leetic -- Scotty joined my Day 1 vote against leetic in such a way that it appeared an opportunistic move against a low-content player.

I think Scotty made him look good too.

Metalmarsh89 -- He had the opportunity to tie the Day 1 tally at 4-4 between INH and Scotty. He elected to vote for Scotty, effectively securing his lynch, despite having been given a big opening by Sloonei and I to do otherwise.

Like I said earlier, Scotty's lynch was inevitable. I don't see a reason to give him civ cred for jumping on a lynch that likely would've happened the next day if not Day 1 anyway.

Sloonei -- He had more direct influence upon the development of the Scotty wagon than anyone else on Day 1.

My reasons to town read him are the exact same.

~~~

I do not town read MP/reywaS or S~V~S/Wilgy.

I have my own reason to town-read Wilgy, which I've brought up. You've pointed out why Wilgy can't be the SK, and I agree. That makes him town in my book. A lack of cause to town-read sawyer doesn't convince me that he's bad, though. I've got stronger cases against people who were involved in Day 2 I would rather pursue.

[insertnamehere]

The only people I townread right now are Epi and Sloonei. Everybody else I have conflicting feelings towards.

[G-Man]

Formatting changes have been made to the night post and the front-page posts have all been updated. Thank you for your patience.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Like I said earlier, Scotty's lynch was inevitable. I don't see a reason to give him civ cred for jumping on a lynch that likely would've happened the next day if not Day 1 anyway.

That's a premise I don't agree with. I don't think Scotty's lynch was inevitable, and had he survived Day 1 he could easily still be here right now. Things change in Mafia with the breeze.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The only people I townread right now are Epi and Sloonei. Everybody else I have conflicting feelings towards.

Would you be able to describe the conflicts you're experiencing with everyone else?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Exciting stuff.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.

[Epignosis]

I have plenty for you to answer 3J. It isn't ready yet and won't be for a while. There's plenty of time today, so I'm taking my time.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Cool beans.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

All I ask is that you give me a reasonable amount of time to respond to whatever you're doing. If I get a text wall at 11:30pm the night before the deadline that will suck ass.

[Epignosis]

All I ask is that you give me a reasonable amount of time to respond to whatever you're doing. If I get a text wall at 11:30pm the night before the deadline that will suck ass.

I promise to be fair. I'm on the fence about you.

[Marmot]

I went for a bike ride today, and my derailleur broke. So I had to drive to work, and my glasses frame broke on the way.

I'll try to catch up time-permitting, but I can't see well at all, and I don't like putting my face too close to computer screens.

[Epignosis]

I decided to do this differently. Instead of pulling quotes and all that, I'm just going to summarize my view.

1. 3J argued with Ricochet over pointless things.

I suspected you early on because I believed your back and forth with Ricochet was nitpicky and exploded into something stupid. I also believe you were nitpicking over things I thought were obvious.

2. 3J fought against Scott's lynch.

The biggest issue is that 3J wanted INH dead (or leetic) instead of Scotty. Why did you do this, and why wouldn't you let Scotty die?

3. 3J voted for Quin.

I understand you were the counter choice, but if you are good, and you get to win with you faction, then I would think you would have been doing what it is you are doing now. Now it looks like you are trying to scare people from voting you. See below.

4. 3J called me the serial killer.

This was your first reaction to the idea of a serial killer. You came after me.

I could see Epignosis killing Golden. Dual function -- eliminate the only person threatening him while also making me an easier lynch. Even if he isn't mafia he could be an SK.

For this to make sense, I want you to tell me whom you couldn't see me killing. You used a linguistic formula I love. "I could see." So who couldn't you see me killing?

I'm not sold on voting for you. I want to give you a chance. Go.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I decided to do this differently. Instead of pulling quotes and all that, I'm just going to summarize my view.

1. 3J argued with Ricochet over pointless things.

I suspected you early on because I believed your back and forth with Ricochet was nitpicky and exploded into something stupid. I also believe you were nitpicking over things I thought were obvious.

Without specific references it's difficult for me to know what "obvious" things you think I was nitpicking over. The argument between Ricochet and I probably did eventually move into the realm of the pedantic, but I pursued it so long as I didn't grasp the responses I was getting. Ricochet and I seemed to understand one another very little on Day 1; I felt as though the things I said to him weren't being met with applicable responses. I felt he was making a big stink out of something that warranted no stink at all (the "lie" he felt MM was telling about how frequently he draws scum roles), and it was suspicious to me. I pursued that suspicion thoroughly, and when I wasn't satisfied with what he said I kept going.

Perhaps more importantly than that, my getting into a tiff with Rico was the first meaningful conflict in this game and I saw that as a productive thing regardless of whether I was right about him. It was something I figured other people would comment on at least in passing, and that might enable me and others to begin building reads on them too. It was Day 1, that was the play in front of me, and I took it.

2. 3J fought against Scott's lynch.

The biggest issue is that 3J wanted INH dead (or leetic) instead of Scotty. Why did you do this, and why wouldn't you let Scotty die?

All of that information is visible in the sequence leading up to the Day 1 deadline. I thought both leetic and INH were more suspicious than Scotty. I was lukewarm about a Scotty lynch most of the day, until the very end when I felt he looked quite genuine. He fooled me, and credit to him for that. I wasn't inspired by the cases presented against him as much as I was inspired by his lamentation that his atypical effort to get real reads on Day 1 was getting him lynched on Day 1. In every game I give him grief for his "I'm only going to vote for a no-show on Day 1" shtick, and I thought he was genuinely trying something different this time. I was wrong.

I thought leetic's accusation against me on Day 1 looked completely made up, and that it came soon after you had voiced suspicion of me made me think it was opportunistic. I have no idea how he came to that conclusion based on the post he was quoting. Maybe it was poor communication, but he never expanded on it.

I switched to INH very late in the phase for the same reason Sloonei did. I hated this post more than any other Day 1 post. It looked awful to me. Keep in mind that at this point, Scotty was alive his mafia role had not yet been made public. This post, to me at the time, looked like INH placing a crucial vote in the tally without taking any personal responsibility for it -- he dumped all of that on Sloonei's head. I also thought that made Scotty look better, because it was a shitty-looking opportunistic vote for him. So I voted for him. And I called for his head. I wanted him to be lynched instead of Scotty because I hated that post more than any Scotty post. It was the case that inspired me most.

I was wrong about Scotty. I got a Day 1 read wrong. And I've been fighting all game long to get past that. I want you to ask yourself what you think a town JJJ does if he believes in one lynch more than another lynch. I want you to answer that on your own, and then look at the end of Day 1 again. This is part of what Golden was trying to beat into your head -- everything I did in that sequence was about my inspiration in the heat of EOD to vote according to my preference and to influence other people to follow. Like I always do every damned day of every game.

Like I said before: the vast majority of other players never find themselves in this position because they don't put themselves out there on blast like I do. This is an inherent product of my style. Sometimes my yammering prevents crappy mislynches. Unfortunately given my imperfection, there are rare occurrences where I end up looking like an asshole.

3. 3J voted for Quin.

I understand you were the counter choice, but if you are good, and you get to win with you faction, then I would think you would have been doing what it is you are doing now. Now it looks like you are trying to scare people from voting you. See below.

I don't understand what I've done differently other than answer people's accusations (which is a matter of the time available to me in Night 2 and now on Day 3 -- I wasn't given enough time at the end of Day 2). It isn't as though I spent all of Day 2 with my finger lodged up my anus. I was still busy working through this game. I was devising my own reads, coming up with my own PoE, investigating everyone's interactions with dead mafia Scotty, etc. I don't know if that work was drowned out by people suspecting me so much that they just ignored everything I said, or if they were too busy arguing with Golden about strategy, or what. But it's there, it's in my posts, and it isn't hard to find.

The work I've done this phase isn't really new -- it's a reassessment and verification of the work I did before Day 3. The only new content is the serial killer hunting, which wasn't logical to pursue until we saw a second night phase with multiple kills.

I voted Quin 1.0 because I suspected him, not merely for self-preservation. I thought his treatment of Golden, his primary accuser, looked bogus and I was wrong about that too. More importantly, Quin was a process of elimination candidate alongside the others I was listing then (Beck, INH, Wilgy 2.0, reywaS).

As for the highlighted thing: yeah, I have made a bunch of big scary posts this phase. Who could ever lynch a guy who makes such beautiful, big, scary posts? I seriously don't give a shit. I just don't give a shit. Talk to me about the content of the posts, not what they "look like".

4. 3J called me the serial killer.

This was your first reaction to the idea of a serial killer. You came after me.

I could see Epignosis killing Golden. Dual function -- eliminate the only person threatening him while also making me an easier lynch. Even if he isn't mafia he could be an SK.

For this to make sense, I want you to tell me whom you couldn't see me killing. You used a linguistic formula I love. "I could see." So who couldn't you see me killing?

I'm not sold on voting for you. I want to give you a chance. Go.

Golden wasn't amused by you on Night 2, he died, and it was my first thought. I state what's on my mind. I use that "linguistic formula" in every game; that's how I talk. You've accused me of it before. Am I supposed to say "Epignosis definitely killed Golden"? That'd be a logical reach, I don't have information to make that assertion. I do have a visible motive though to theorize about the possibility. Moreover, once I went through all the work to look for SK candidates, I didn't label you a top suspect.

Highlighted: I doubt you'd kill INH, since you and he have been in lockstep for much of the game and also since he isn't a consensus strong town read. I think you'd be less likely to kill a total inactive who'd make easy lynch bait, which would be a good thing for the Wilgy 1.0 kill. I'd expect your kills to have more strategic promise than that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.

[Quin]

Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.

I didn't remove him anything. You're removing people from it based on a single reason to town read them, which I think is bogus considering I can think of more reasons to scum read many players than town read them. Playing by your logic, however, I think my reason for 'removing him' is a good one. I'm more inclined to scum read anyone who tries to discredit alternative votes than scum read him for sticking to his own suspicion.

People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.

marmot. I think you have a weak reason to add him to your list of town reads and his voting pattern so far is suspicious.

Sorry about my inactivity, I have been reading, but uni work demotivated me a lot from this today. I'll be sporadically active tomorrow.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.

I didn't remove him anything. You're removing people from it based on a single reason to town read them, which I think is bogus considering I can think of more reasons to scum read many players than town read them. Playing by your logic, however, I think my reason for 'removing him' is a good one. I'm more inclined to scum read anyone who tries to discredit alternative votes than scum read him for sticking to his own suspicion.

The only player I have removed from candidacy for just one reason is leetic, because multiple reasons are impossible with leetic. I believe you agreed with my rationale for him. For everyone else I have provided multiple reasons.

If Wilgy showed any actual investment in his "alternative vote" I might understand your perspective. He slanked out of the spotlight with that vote, and today he's jumped right onto the easiest wagon available without a word. That doesn't bother you?

People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.

marmot. I think you have a weak reason to add him to your list of town reads and his voting pattern so far is suspicious.

Sorry about my inactivity, I have been reading, but uni work demotivated me a lot from this today. I'll be sporadically active tomorrow.

Alright, tell me this Quin:

If you think Marmot shouldn't get credit for his Day 1 vote because the Scotty lynch was "inevitable", okay. For the sake of argument I'll go with that.

Why then did I try to "save" the same guy? He's gone anyway the next day, so why am I willfully making myself look like a doofus?

[Marmot]

Quin, do you really believe that Wilgy placing one vote away from the larger wagons is good reason to remove him from candidacy to be mafia? That strikes me as an incredibly dubious thing.

I didn't remove him anything. You're removing people from it based on a single reason to town read them, which I think is bogus considering I can think of more reasons to scum read many players than town read them. Playing by your logic, however, I think my reason for 'removing him' is a good one. I'm more inclined to scum read anyone who tries to discredit alternative votes than scum read him for sticking to his own suspicion.

People who suspect me to whatever degree: I have a request/demand for you.

Tell me who my supposed living team mate is.

marmot. I think you have a weak reason to add him to your list of town reads and his voting pattern so far is suspicious.

Sorry about my inactivity, I have been reading, but uni work demotivated me a lot from this today. I'll be sporadically active tomorrow.

What if I told you that I'm civilian?

I developed a clever solution to my glasses problem, using a pair of pliers and a paper clip.

[Marmot]

I think it's reasonable to assume that no one expected Scotty to flip civilian when he was actually mafia, not even his teammates.

I also think it's reasonable to see that Ricochet was killed by a vig. Actually, it's not far-fetched to think that Golden was killed a vig either. I did that exact thing in the Mafia Championship scrimmage.

[Marmot]

Epignosis, who is Jay's partner?

[Marmot]

Rainbow list for the mafia team:

Epignosis
leetic
Quin 2.0
Sloonei

insertnamehere
Metalmarsh89

DrWilgy 2.0
reywaS

Rainbow list for the serial killer:

Sloonei
Quin 2.0
leetic
DrWilgy 2.0

Epignosis
reywaS

Metalmarsh89
insertnamehere

Like I said earlier: I think killing a mafioso is a bigger priority today, and it's also more likely to come to fruition (unless y'all shrink into a JJJ lynch).

Jay, you listed reywas lower on each of these lists, why did you then vote for DrWilgy?

[Ricochet]

make it count, Jaggedmeister

vice-prezz please

[Sloonei]

I have been working every day since Wednesday and become exhausted and haven't felt like devoting all of my free time to mafia, so I've not been around. I apologize to everyone. This is why I dropped out of the champs game.
Today is no exception and I don't know if/when I'll be catching up. Again, I am sorry.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, you listed reywas lower on each of these lists, why did you then vote for DrWilgy?

I could vote reywaS too. Wilgy's current vote is more suspicious than reywaS doing nothing so I voted there. I think it's more important to pursue the mafia today, not the SK.

[Marmot]

Jay, you listed reywas lower on each of these lists, why did you then vote for DrWilgy?

I could vote reywaS too. Wilgy's current vote is more suspicious than reywaS doing nothing so I voted there. I think it's more important to pursue the mafia today, not the SK.

I don't think reywaS as an SK or a vig. He hasn't been online in a few days.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, you listed reywas lower on each of these lists, why did you then vote for DrWilgy?

I could vote reywaS too. Wilgy's current vote is more suspicious than reywaS doing nothing so I voted there. I think it's more important to pursue the mafia today, not the SK.

I don't think reywaS as an SK or a vig. He hasn't been online in a few days.

Could be. I'm pretty comfortable in those two being mafia. I like that you're willing to remove him from SK contention after I'd labeled you a top SK candidate. What do you think of INH as a SK candidate?

[Marmot]

Jay, you listed reywas lower on each of these lists, why did you then vote for DrWilgy?

I could vote reywaS too. Wilgy's current vote is more suspicious than reywaS doing nothing so I voted there. I think it's more important to pursue the mafia today, not the SK.

I don't think reywaS as an SK or a vig. He hasn't been online in a few days.

Could be. I'm pretty comfortable in those two being mafia. I like that you're willing to remove him from SK contention after I'd labeled you a top SK candidate. What do you think of INH as a SK candidate?

I'm not willing to make the assumption that there is an SK. Every player that has been nightkilled has been a vig candidate to an extent.

But like you, I'm more interested in lynching mafia first and foremost.

[Marmot]

As for inh being a SK candidate, he is prime SK material for sure. But I'm not willing to lynch him today.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not willing to make the assumption that there is an SK. Every player that has been nightkilled has been a vig candidate to an extent.

But like you, I'm more interested in lynching mafia first and foremost.

I'm not a fan of a vig targeting either Rico or Golden. I could see Rico being shot by a vig though because he literally asked for that.

I've been town reading everyone except Wilgy 2.0 and reywaS. Do you think I'm likely to be wrong about someone? I'm just bouncing things off of you because you appear to be around right now. :P

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As for inh being a SK candidate, he is prime SK material for sure. But I'm not willing to lynch him today.

Ooooh, what about him makes you think he's a prime candidate? I agree he's not a preferred lynch for me today either.

[Marmot]

As for inh being a SK candidate, he is prime SK material for sure. But I'm not willing to lynch him today.

This is just generally speaking, not because of what inh has done in this game. :P

Linki: this^

[Marmot]

Another note to keep track of, we have 5 dead vanilla civilians out of a presumed 11-12. If there is a SK and a mafia team to take down, I'd imagine the civilians would have at the very least one power role, probably even two. We haven't seen any yet. I believe this points to a vig being a power role on the town's side.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

As for inh being a SK candidate, he is prime SK material for sure. But I'm not willing to lynch him today.

This is just generally speaking, not because of what inh has done in this game. :P

Linki: this^

Is there anyone you feel is not a prime SK candidate?

[Marmot]

Let's take a look at MP/reywaS.

MP is doing his normal "I'm busy" crap, disappearing in the middle of the night. I tend to read that as bad. He's getting more in the line of "no-show" as we have in the game.

I'm coming back to this comprehensive read of players that Scotty gave us. Scotty calls out MP for giving his usual "I'm busy" crap and calling him bad for it. His thoughts on MP are also incomplete. "He's getting more in the line of 'no-show' as we have in the game". Looks a bit thrown together, but I'm not sure if that's important.

Anywho, so Scotty accuses MP of being busy and suspects him. Thing is, MP had 4 posts before this, and never really said he was busy. He gave us this I'll be spotty bit. Additionally, about 50 minutes after Scotty posted this read of MP, MP himself came in and told us he's been extremely busy.

[Marmot]

As for inh being a SK candidate, he is prime SK material for sure. But I'm not willing to lynch him today.

This is just generally speaking, not because of what inh has done in this game. :P

Linki: this^

Is there anyone you feel is not a prime SK candidate?

Yes! Everyone that can be ruled out of performing a nightkill based on inactivity.

That includes S~V~S/DrWilgy 2.0 and MovingPictures/reywaS.

[Marmot]

I'mma put my vote on reywaS moT.

[Marmot]

Jay, why do you have 400 posts in this game? That's ridiculous!!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'mma put my vote on reywaS moT.

What's moT?

[DrWilgy]

Daily Wilgy tip: it's never a bad idea to wear your lucky underwear. Perhaps it's a good idea today? We wouldn't want something unfortunate happening.

[Epignosis]

I'mma put my vote on reywaS moT.

What's moT?

[Epignosis]

Epignosis, who is Jay's partner?

Scotty.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Daily Wilgy tip: it's never a bad idea to wear your lucky underwear. Perhaps it's a good idea today? We wouldn't want something unfortunate happening.

You can't pretend you don't care like Wilgy 1.0 didn't care. You already voted and "justified" it with a "reason".

[Marmot]

I'mma put my vote on reywaS moT.

What's moT?

Spoiler: show

Linki:

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis, who is Jay's partner?

Scotty.

Great, how about the other one?

[Marmot]

Epignosis, who is Jay's partner?

Scotty.

Who is Jay's living partner? (I'm just echoing Jay)

Linki:

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm not listening to an entire Rush song to figure out what that means.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis, who is Jay's partner?

Scotty.

Great, how about the other one?

Are there three mafia?

[Epignosis]

I'm not listening to an entire Rush song to figure out what that means.