RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[insertnamehere]

I'm saying that I find you the most suspicious out of anyone. I'm not trying to distance myself at all here. If I'm wrong, I'm willing to accept the consequences. Though I doubt I'm wrong.

Sure, whatever. Let's talk about something else. We need to make use of you while you're here and posting. What do you think of reywaS and DrWilgy?

Rey I have a complete non-read on.

Wilgy is Wilgy. He hasn't seemed any less Wilgy this Wilgy as opposed to old Wilgy.

And with that hot take, I'm gonna sign off for the night. I realize I wasn't around today or yesterday a lot, but it was a holiday weekend.

Will post more in the morning.

[Marmot]

I've offered several reasons why I don't think there's a SK Jay. Why are you so keen on it existing?

Hey good timing! Refute my prior post if you disagree.

Your reason for half of them was "I don't know why this player would kill so-and-so".

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've offered several reasons why I don't think there's a SK Jay. Why are you so keen on it existing?

Hey good timing! Refute my prior post if you disagree.

Your reason for half of them was "I don't know why this player would kill so-and-so".

I think that's important information to consider. Do you see an assertion that is dubious?

[Marmot]

I've offered several reasons why I don't think there's a SK Jay. Why are you so keen on it existing?

Hey good timing! Refute my prior post if you disagree.

Your reason for half of them was "I don't know why this player would kill so-and-so".

I think that's important information to consider. Do you see an assertion that is dubious?

Nope, but I suddenly think I know who could be the vig. Thanks for that list!

[Marmot]

Look alive DrWilgy! Who are your top 2-3 suspects and why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Spoiler: show

Let's play Is This Guy a Town Vigilante???

DrWilgy 2.0 -- replaced S~V~S, who was unable to deliver a kill. Nope.

Epignosis -- Presence makes it possible, but I don't know why he'd vigilante kill any of the people who were killed. He'd have probably offed me a while ago. He also entertained me as a SK candidate. Nope.

insertnamehere -- He was willing to entertain the idea of Epi or MM being a SK. Nope.

Metalmarsh89 -- He entertained Wilgy 2.0 as a vigilante. Nope.

Quin 2.0 -- I have no idea why he'd kill either Rico or Golden. He's also done a little SK-hunting. Nope.

These people have considered someone else for either a vigilante role or for a serial killer role. This means they are theorizing about the origins of the extra night kills, which should imply that they didn't innocently commit them themselves. I don't see how these people can be vigilantes, unless they are taking "no infodumping" to a hyper-extreme where they even pretend to suspect other people of having their own role.

Spoiler: show

leetic -- Technically plausible. The only suspicion he has cast was on me, I'd expect to be dead. Probably nope.

reywaS -- May not have logged in recently enough for a Night 2 kill. Probably nope.

Sloonei -- I have no idea why he'd kill either Rico or Golden. Probably nope.

I cannot unequivocally reject these three as possibile vigilantes. For them I have to make a judgment call. I don't think Sloonei would have killed either Golden or Ricochet, even with Rico requesting it. Sloonei doesn't use his town power role for anything other than what he feels is best for his team.

reywaS could be a vigilante if he's been around at all lately, but I know I haven't seen him. I doubt it.

leetic is the only one that makes me go "hmmmm". It's plausible. He's been present on both nights I believe. I wish he'd get into this dang thread and say something.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd still rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS than INH.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wait a minute.

I'd give a read on MM. I don't like his vote bandying about that he's employed in the past, specifically in the Day 2 lynch when he tipped the balance against Quin 1.0.

This man saved your life while simultaneously beheading a scum. All you have to say about him is ?

[Marmot]

PoE = Piece pf Eden

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yanno what I want to see? One of them shiny new Sloonei posts.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

PoE = Piece pf Eden

I think it's one of those ghosts from Zelda.

I'm bored.

[Marmot]

PoE = Piece pf Eden

I think it's one of those ghosts from Zelda.

I'm bored.

Do some pushups. I hear they're good for you.

[Quin]

That's inaccurate. I actually said I think Scotty is mafia that Quin 1.0 was not his partner on Day 1. I later said I like Scotty's comment to Quin, at which point my read started to shift.

Could you bring out the posts that illustrate this progression?

Why yes! This one and this one.

This does look like an authentic series of thoughts. I don't know that you'd be inclined to flop around on the Quin read like that as a baddie, since the latter example carries an implied positive for Scotty -- the same guy you were about to murder. It looks more like you were considering isolated points as they came to you and making judgments, which is a town look.



Whaddya think, Quin?

The post that supposedly made him shift was a post where I suggested that Scotty's change in Day 1 tactic was not suspicious. I know marmot read that. I already countered him on this. Neither of those posts explains why he was supporting the accusations against me while still voting the person who said them, and neither of them explain why he felt a 'pressure vote' was appropriate.

Here's the post, for reference. There is zero room for misinterpretation here.

I think Day 1 is much too early for Scotty to be dishing out scum-reads because they haven't stepped up to the plate, so that's mildly suspicious. Also interesting to note that he's straying from his typical 'voting an inactive on Day 1' strategy, which I find less so, because meta is meta and not evidence.

I'm voting marmot for now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have an answer to that but I'd prefer MM answer first.

[Quin]

I have to be up early in the morning to prepare for this presentation, so I might be around to make any last minute decisions. No guarantees, though. I don't actually know what time day ends on my end, I just wake up to it. I was hoping he'd be around to talk about this, but I mean, time zones.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?

[Quin]

Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?

I would.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?

I would.

I think there is room for misinterpretation. The language of your post is "I find this other Scotty stuff suspicious, his deviation from meta less so."

You meant "less so" as in "not suspicious".

Another way to read it is "less suspicious", which is a very different thing. It'd be read as though you've made note of Scotty's deviation from meta as a valid point against him, just not the strongest point. That's not the same thing as "it's not a point against him at all", which was your intent.

I also don't think it's a problem that MM had that perspective while still voting Scotty. That suggests to me that he was thinking about both of you in isolation and making jugments of individual points, like an uninformed townie must. He evidently found Scotty more suspicious that day in the end.

[Quin]

Would you prefer I just answer now if you're on the way out?

I would.

I think there is room for misinterpretation. The language of your post is "I find this other Scotty stuff suspicious, his deviation from meta less so."

You meant "less so" as in "not suspicious".

Another way to read it is "less suspicious", which is a very different thing. It'd be read as though you've made note of Scotty's deviation from meta as a valid point against him, just not the strongest point. That's not the same thing as "it's not a point against him at all", which was your intent.

I also don't think it's a problem that MM had that perspective while still voting Scotty. That suggests to me that he was thinking about both of you in isolation and making jugments of individual points, like an uninformed townie must. He evidently found Scotty more suspicious that day in the end.

I still don't think there's room for that interpretation. I even said 'meta is meta and not evidence'. I always bring things up that are of interest, even if it's not something that necessarily makes me lean one way or another on a player. But if for some reason he did misinterpret it, I already countered him once explicitly saying that I was arguing it was not suspicious. See below.

Spoiler: show

Quin, I think it was you who said it was suspicious if I change up my day 1 strategies from my norm. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. I don't like giving tone reads on day 1, because I'm generally bad at them, but I figured practice makes perfect. It in this case, practice makes me get lynched day 1. So...cumquats.

I did not! I merely pointed it out as an observation and even argued that it was not suspicious

I think Day 1 is much too early for Scotty to be dishing out scum-reads because they haven't stepped up to the plate, so that's mildly suspicious. Also interesting to note that he's straying from his typical 'voting an inactive on Day 1' strategy, which I find less so, because meta is meta and not evidence.

Scotty's response to Epignosis isn't very persuasive.

He does make a good point to Quin. I said I was changing my Day 1 tactic, and Quin had nothing to say about it. Scotty changes his Day 1 tactics, and gets suspected for it.

NOT! HAPPY! JAN!

Rico gets some townie points because I had the same thought process before I read this:

I still don't have anything to dissuade me from my suspicion that he was just vote hopping on Day 2.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I know for certain that he hopped from a townie to a townie, so I don't care about that. I think you're biased by it having been about you.

[Quin]

I know for certain that he hopped from a townie to a townie, so I don't care about that. I think you're biased by it having been about you.

It's unfortunate that you think that.

[Quin]

Anyway, I'll try and check in after I wake up.

[insertnamehere]

voting 3J, because I never got around to it yesterday.

[insertnamehere]

I'd really like to hear from Epi before the day ends. He hasn't gotten around to responding to my response to his case. Seeing as I'm somehow tied for first, and MM is in full wacky mode, Epi seems to be the only one I can talk to about the case against me.

That is, until 3J votes for me out of "self-preservation."

[Marmot]

That's inaccurate. I actually said I think Scotty is mafia that Quin 1.0 was not his partner on Day 1. I later said I like Scotty's comment to Quin, at which point my read started to shift.

Could you bring out the posts that illustrate this progression?

Why yes! This one and this one.

This does look like an authentic series of thoughts. I don't know that you'd be inclined to flop around on the Quin read like that as a baddie, since the latter example carries an implied positive for Scotty -- the same guy you were about to murder. It looks more like you were considering isolated points as they came to you and making judgments, which is a town look.



Whaddya think, Quin?

The post that supposedly made him shift was a post where I suggested that Scotty's change in Day 1 tactic was not suspicious. I know marmot read that. I already countered him on this. Neither of those posts explains why he was supporting the accusations against me while still voting the person who said them, and neither of them explain why he felt a 'pressure vote' was appropriate.

Here's the post, for reference. There is zero room for misinterpretation here.

I think Day 1 is much too early for Scotty to be dishing out scum-reads because they haven't stepped up to the plate, so that's mildly suspicious. Also interesting to note that he's straying from his typical 'voting an inactive on Day 1' strategy, which I find less so, because meta is meta and not evidence.

I'm voting marmot for now.

I guess I didn't read your post properly then. My point was made based on what Scotty said.

[Marmot]

I'd really like to hear from Epi before the day ends. He hasn't gotten around to responding to my response to his case. Seeing as I'm somehow tied for first, and MM is in full wacky mode, Epi seems to be the only one I can talk to about the case against me.

That is, until 3J votes for me out of "self-preservation."

I'm not in fully wacky mode. I'm just not a fan of predictability.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I said I'd rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS. Are you unwilling to consider those votes, INH?

[Marmot]

Vote reywaS

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And what did you mean by "MM is in full wacky mode"?

[insertnamehere]

I said I'd rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS. Are you unwilling to consider those votes, INH?

Wilgy 2.0 seems more or less the same as Wilgy 1.0 to me. Rey I have a complete non-impression of.

Why would I vote for either one of them over someone I've suspected for the last two days?

[insertnamehere]

And what did you mean by "MM is in full wacky mode"?

To use his own words:

I'm just not a fan of predictability.

Wacky in this case being a synonym for unpredictable.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I said I'd rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS. Are you unwilling to consider those votes, INH?

Wilgy 2.0 seems more or less the same as Wilgy 1.0 to me. Rey I have a complete non-impression of.

Why would I vote for either one of them over someone I've suspected for the last two days?

It may be a self-preservation option for you. They must be in your suspect pool even if you cannot actively suspect them.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I said I'd rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS. Are you unwilling to consider those votes, INH?

Wilgy 2.0 seems more or less the same as Wilgy 1.0 to me. Rey I have a complete non-impression of.

Why would I vote for either one of them over someone I've suspected for the last two days?

Also, Wily 1.0 said exactly nothing game-relevant. This is untrue of Wilgy 2.0. What do you think of his vote for me at the start of this day phase when my lynch looked the most probable?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

VOTE REYWAS

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In case anyone isn't convinced a scum reywaS would just make one post and then never appear again...

Check out my team mate in Transistor

That time he was the replaced instead of the replacement, but I don't think that matters.

[insertnamehere]

I said I'd rather lynch Wilgy or reywaS. Are you unwilling to consider those votes, INH?

Wilgy 2.0 seems more or less the same as Wilgy 1.0 to me. Rey I have a complete non-impression of.

Why would I vote for either one of them over someone I've suspected for the last two days?

It may be a self-preservation option for you. They must be in your suspect pool even if you cannot actively suspect them.

I mean, if votes were piling onto me, and nobody else found you suspicious at all, I'd consider possibly placing a self-preservation vote on either of them. Hopefully, circumstances don't force me to that point.

Wilgy and Rey are only in my suspect pool purely in a PoE, "everyone I don't townread I find suspicious" sense.

I think the baddies are more likely to be movers and shakers as opposed to inactives, but that's mainly based on gut than anything concrete.

I do believe that they represent a nice spectral figure for you to draw attention towards and hopefully away from yourself. If I desperately wanted to change the in-thread conversation, I could certainly do worse than leading a charge against inactives. There's no way anybody can really trust them, so it's unlikely anyone will attempt to mount a defense. Plus, it's not like they're going to show up and challenge you.

The above passage is mostly WIFOM funny business, but you yourself are always championing the ol' Wine in Front of Me. I figured I might as well give it a shot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I do believe that they represent a nice spectral figure for you to draw attention towards and hopefully away from yourself. If I desperately wanted to change the in-thread conversation, I could certainly do worse than leading a charge against inactives. There's no way anybody can really trust them, so it's unlikely anyone will attempt to mount a defense. Plus, it's not like they're going to show up and challenge you.

The above passage is mostly WIFOM funny business, but you yourself are always championing the ol' Wine in Front of Me. I figured I might as well give it a shot.

I arrived at them as premier suspects by process of elimination before I was public enemy #1. I don't need them as diversions, particularly not right as you are starting to draw negative press. If they are my diversion tactic, I save them for LyLo.

[Marmot]

In case anyone isn't convinced a scum reywaS would just make one post and then never appear again...

Check out my team mate in Transistor

That time he was the replaced instead of the replacement, but I don't think that matters.

He also replaced out of World Reborn, in which he was a civilian.

He also played through and won Recruitment, as a LMS/SK role.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In case anyone isn't convinced a scum reywaS would just make one post and then never appear again...

Check out my team mate in Transistor

That time he was the replaced instead of the replacement, but I don't think that matters.

He also replaced out of World Reborn, in which he was a civilian.

He also played through and won Recruitment, as a LMS/SK role.

I believe it. From what I have seen, I'd say reywaS definitely trends more towards low-content play than not. I only meant to show that there is a precedent for him to do this as a member of a baddie team. He didn't use high night power in Transistor either, or ever appear in the BTSC. He knew his role and his team too because he made a post after receiving the role card.

[Sloonei]

Someone tell me who I should vote for.

[Marmot]

I wish modkills were still a thing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Someone tell me who I should vote for.

I think you should trust in the power of process of elimination and help us slay reywaS.

[Sloonei]

Someone tell me who I should vote for.

I think you should trust in the power of process of elimination and help us slay reywaS.

My gut still says to go with you, but I'm not totally sure I'm comfortable doing that having read 0 things in the last 72 hours.

[Marmot]

Someone tell me who I should vote for.

In this world, it's lick or be licked. Don't be a lollipop my friend.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I wish modkills were still a thing.

Me too. I used to say I don't like them, but I have changed my stance on that. It might seem like modkilling a player screws up a game's balance, but I think keeping someone around who isn't participating ruins balance even more. It's unfair to ask any town team to deal with players who cannot be read in any way other than process of elimination. The game wasn't designed for that variable. No matter what the lurker's alignment, their existence is pro-mafia.

Not that this is a hint-hint to G-Man. It's a discussion for a lounge thread perhaps.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Someone tell me who I should vote for.

I think you should trust in the power of process of elimination and help us slay reywaS.

My gut still says to go with you, but I'm not totally sure I'm comfortable doing that having read 0 things in the last 72 hours.

I think I can understand that. I have been volatile, abrasive, and perhaps even arrogant at points of this game. On the surface I bet that hasn't always looked like Mr. Forensic Investigator JJJ. And that's why meta is stupid. I don't know if meta is part of your read, that's an assumption.

The point is -- under that layer of semi-MacDougall behavior, I've been trying to solve this stupid game as hard as I ever have. My greatest offense to this planet was being wrong about Scotty on Day 1, and there's nothing I can do about that.

[Sloonei]

Why is reywaS the best alternative candidate?

[G-Man]

I wish modkills were still a thing.

This tbqfh. Next game... next game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why is reywaS the best alternative candidate?

Truth be told, I'd slightly prefer to lynch DrWilgy over reywaS, but I'm content with either of them.

I did full ISOs of every player remaining, and I didn't struggle to find reasons to town read everyone except for those two. I'll grant that my town read on INH has weakened since, but I still can't help but think his Day 1 behavior was exactly his thing and the same stuff that drove me to wrongly suspect him in The Office. That's why I call it process of elimination. I actively suspect Wilgy more than reywaS because of his opportunistic vote for me today -- but I have a feeling those two are the scum team anyway.

There's also probably a SK out there. I've been leaning INH for that one, but it's a lot harder to judge that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have a little tinfoil worry about an MM/Wilgy 2.0 scum team, because MM has been willing to vote reywaS but not Wilgy.