Watchmen [ENDGAME]

[Marmot]

At the same time I think mafia would be cowardly to kill me tonight.

Who would you kill tonight if you were mafia, GMan?

Rhetorical, of course.

I would kill you.

[DharmaHelper]

Dat late night MS Paint Photoshop tho

[Scotty]

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

[Marmot]

Dat late night MS Paint Photoshop tho

Your avatar needs a mustache.

[Scotty]

At the same time I think mafia would be cowardly to kill me tonight.

Who would you kill tonight if you were mafia, GMan?

Rhetorical, of course.

I would kill you.

[Marmot]

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

Ricochet, because his only 'meaningful' vote in the first five days was to push LoRab to 3-4 against espers on Day 4.

[Scotty]

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

Ricochet, because his only 'meaningful' vote in the first five days was to push LoRab to 3-4 against espers on Day 4.

Would your opinion of her change if LoRab was actually mafia?

[Scotty]

him*

[Marmot]

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

Ricochet, because his only 'meaningful' vote in the first five days was to push LoRab to 3-4 against espers on Day 4.

Would your opinion of her change if LoRab was actually mafia?

Considering that there is only one mafia left. Yes.

(Ricochet is a hehehe)

[Scotty]

Marmot, since you weren't here yesterday, who would you have voted for yesterday if you were allowed?

[Marmot]

DDL.

MP was an evident civ to me (hindsight aside), and I had no reason to vote Cookie. LoRab has dropped off my radar.

[Russtifinko]

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

Ricochet, because his only 'meaningful' vote in the first five days was to push LoRab to 3-4 against espers on Day 4.

Huh! This is an interesting answer. I have him as a fairly civvie read, but I haven't actually looked back at all his votes.

[Ricochet]

I'm not following entirely the tracking theories; it seems I'm even unfamiliar with the term. I thought it was a kind of checking, but apparently not (Rorschach also "tracking" made me think even more that he'd check if a guilty voter is good or bad). Anyway, I don't think MP's Elo case was based on tracking, it sounded like a genuine case. A possible hint could be at Russ - (he made a sudden case on him D4, so right after presumably tracking on D3, took the heat off afterwards, then left another suspicious note on him on N5, before being silenced), but I'm not convinced that isn't MP being wary and making a case, either - or Cookie, whom he's left top of his rainbow lists quite consistently (and voted for insistently).

This question is posed for all involved:
Take a deep breath. Lay down, put your feet off, take your trousers off, as you will.
Attempt to discard any reads you currently have on people. It's hard, I know.

Now.

Looking at votes alone, who is the most suspicious player left, in your opinion and why?

DDL. His hands are filled with blood.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm curious at Ricochet's vote of me yesterday. I recall he was calling me a civ read for most of the game, and I found the change to be kind of sudden. Did something happen in day 5/night 5 to change it? Was it only because of the Elo fiasco?

I realize I need to make an ISO of him, he is a player who has flown past my radar for the entire game.

Yes, I realize this sounds like OMGUS, but something is pinging me here.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

MM has a point tho, Ricochet spent the game making votes that were pretty useless. Other than the almost saving of espers on Day 4.

[Cookie]

I dunno if we should be dwelling too much on vote patterns at this point. With only one inmate left, they have no one to protect but him/herself.

Good point. Isn't that true for everyone, though? If the lynch came down to me with 2 votes and someone else with 1 vote, I'd self-preserve by voting the other person and hope for a chance to survive. I'm sure that everyone else would do the same, inmate, Moloch or not.

[Cookie]

Crap. I was so sure he was an Inmate. RIP and sorry.

Why did you vote for LoRab then if you were so sure?

HMMMMMMMMM?

I explained that when I voted LoRab. I didn't want to lynch someone who couldn't talk and the alternative was to lynch someone else I thought (and still think) is an Inmate.

Ah I see I missed that post. You are correct, you did say that, my bad.
If you are sure that someone is bad, then why not commit to your read, regardless of a silent treatment?

Are you saying you find it strange that I voted one of my suspects over the other? I don't have 2 votes so I had to choose one of them. I'm confused why you are reading into this so much.

[Ricochet]

My reads of you (DDL) worsened each time, over several days, and I wouldn't say they started from tagging you civ, only not my likely Mafia candidate.

[Cookie]

Disappointing result. My being lynched would have been equally disappinting. Not sure a lynch of cookie would have been bad, having voted that way and all.

Thoughs haven't changed since I went to sleep. Hope to survive the night.

You're golden, I think I'm on the chopping block unfortunately.

Shame, because I feel like we really could have eliminated that problem.

So who do you see me is being elimininaed from that problem?

That sentence doesn't make sense.
But I'm talking about cookie

Honestly if I was BF, MP would have died in the NK when he first insisted that I was mafia, I think it was D3 or D4 when he put a lot of heat on me.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

My reads of you (DDL) worsened each time, over several days, and I wouldn't say they started from tagging you civ, only not my likely Mafia candidate.

No, but they took a quick turn for worse after Night 5.

And I think that, whoever Big Figure is, he's pretty desperate to get me lynched right now.

I really have to make an ISO on you though, because right now I only have his hunch.

[Ricochet]

My reads of you (DDL) worsened each time, over several days, and I wouldn't say they started from tagging you civ, only not my likely Mafia candidate.

No, but they took a quick turn for worse after Night 5.

And I think that, whoever Big Figure is, he's pretty desperate to get me lynched right now.

I really have to make an ISO on you though, because right now I only have his hunch.

How much desperation is there, though? Only MM and myself have voted for you so far, of the remaining players. I've asked yesterday what read players have on you and the replies have been pretty tame.

But I agree that both Big Figure and Moloch can thrive on digging up more graves on the way to lylo or whatever the endgame will take shape. And I firmly believe you fit this profile. If you will get me lynched tomorrow (which I'm increasingly pinged that you are slowly trying to do), you'll get to say "oops. shit. sorry" again, like the last four times. In a row.

[LoRab]

Disappointing result. My being lynched would have been equally disappinting. Not sure a lynch of cookie would have been bad, having voted that way and all.

Thoughs haven't changed since I went to sleep. Hope to survive the night.

You're golden, I think I'm on the chopping block unfortunately.

Shame, because I feel like we really could have eliminated that problem.

So who do you see me is being elimininaed from that problem?

That sentence doesn't make sense.
But I'm talking about cookie

Not sure what I meant. This is why I should only mafia when fully awake--my posts make much more sense.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Rico: Why would I profit from being directly responsible for mislynches, though? A solo mafia player would just try to remain hidden. Lynch results be danmed.

I mean, if there's any player they are really worried about, they can just night kill them, right? Would it really be worth it for me to tunnel on someone like MP and then being the one who was responsible for taking down the poor sock?

I'm taking a preposterous amount of heat the way I'm playing. And yes, I know this is WIFOM, but I still have to say it.

[Ricochet]

The problem with your viewpoint is that its reverse can be just as plausible, in that a mafia member left solo or an LMS can feel that he'll risk detection by staying hidden, sidelining, whatnot, so he'll adopt being in front, hunting, develop a solid gameplay and making it look like his efforts have simply gone awry. That's my profile of you right now, that's all. I'm not automatically adverse to mislynchers - like, say, llama is, given how he hunted my ass and mislynched me for having a stinking vote record and always falling outside the circle of those who caught mafia - but I've said that I don't feel good about you anymore compared to other hunters who didn't bring mafia meat to supper either (even if you did, once, back on D1).

Oh, I'm equally anticipating being night killed for my efforts, as well. I'm doubtful the remaining baddies will let me join them in lylo, if it'll go that far. What you ask regarding night killing is funny, since you did kill me in Guess Who out of worries that I'll be a threat. If you ask me, MP was kept in the game due to the high potential of being lynched. That he himself started a huge case on a civ Eloh must have been even more of a delight for BF and Moloch.

And again, I'm not seeing the preposterous heat. You're questioning my votes and reads on you and I'm replying on this matter. Others, except MM, have barely chimed in. I think some have even called you slightly civ.

[Marmot]

My reads of you (DDL) worsened each time, over several days, and I wouldn't say they started from tagging you civ, only not my likely Mafia candidate.

No, but they took a quick turn for worse after Night 5.

And I think that, whoever Big Figure is, he's pretty desperate to get me lynched right now.

I really have to make an ISO on you though, because right now I only have his hunch.

Bullshit.

Nobody is "desperate" to get you lynched, or at least not showing it. Ricochet might be the closest, but I think you have created a theory here with the intent of fitting Ricochet into that theory.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

The problem with your viewpoint is that its reverse can be just as plausible, in that a mafia member left solo or an LMS can feel that he'll risk detection by staying hidden, sidelining, whatnot, so he'll adopt being in front, hunting, develop a solid gameplay and making it look like his efforts have simply gone awry. That's my profile of you right now, that's all. I'm not automatically adverse to mislynchers - like, say, llama is, given how he hunted my ass and mislynched me for having a stinking vote record and always falling outside the circle of those who caught mafia - but I've said that I don't feel good about you anymore compared to other hunters who didn't bring mafia meat to supper either (even if you did, once, back on D1).

Oh, I'm equally anticipating being night killed for my efforts, as well. I'm doubtful the remaining baddies will let me join them in lylo, if it'll go that far. What you ask regarding night killing is funny, since you did kill me in Guess Who out of worries that I'll be a threat. If you ask me, MP was kept in the game due to the high potential of being lynched. That he himself started a huge case on a civ Eloh must have been even more of a delight for BF and Moloch.

And again, I'm not seeing the preposterous heat. You're questioning my votes and reads on you and I'm replying on this matter. Others, except MM, have barely chimed in. I think some have even called you slightly civ.

Okay, I exaggerated about the heat thing. My point is, my playstyle is risky, and would at least make people pay attention on me every time a civ got lynched, because I had my hand in every civ lynch in this game (a fact I'm not proud of). This is highly WIFOM-y though, so I'll stop arguing in this direction.

You have a point though, in which most players in this game haven't really suspected me. Other than you and MM, it's only soft suspicions.

Now answer me this question: assume you are Big Figure. You have to get rid of me, just like you have to everybody. There are two methods that you can emply to do that. One is the night kill, the other is a lynch. Based on how I've played this game, which one would be the option of your choice?

My reads of you (DDL) worsened each time, over several days, and I wouldn't say they started from tagging you civ, only not my likely Mafia candidate.

No, but they took a quick turn for worse after Night 5.

And I think that, whoever Big Figure is, he's pretty desperate to get me lynched right now.

I really have to make an ISO on you though, because right now I only have his hunch.

Bullshit.

Nobody is "desperate" to get you lynched, or at least not showing it. Ricochet might be the closest, but I think you have created a theory here with the intent of fitting Ricochet into that theory.

I recognize I might be wrong about Ricochet being the best fit, but I can guarantee you it's the opposite of what you said. I didn't craft the theory so I could fit Ricochet in (that'd be silly). I crafted the theory first, and now I'm trying to fit someone in.

There IS one player who is desperate to get me lynched. That's a fact. The question is who.

[G-Man]

My situation is this: because I have a knack for dreaming up intricate conspiracy theories, I can see any one of you as Big Figure based on your voting record. I believe I've hit the same point I did in Economics Mafia where I was right on two or three times in a row but then sucked at sniffing out the last baddie. Come to think of it, that happened in Biblical too- I kept trying to find the most sinister baddie plot and make it sound like the most likely option (this was all after death though- Golden can attest to it). It seems my usefulness has reached its limit.

Note to self: Stop trying to find Keyser Söze and start looking for Joe Blow Baddie.

[Tangrowth]

You know what's hilarious?

GOOF-MAN IS NOW ON RORSCHACH'S LIST

Thanks, Rico, this cheered me up. :P

Also, rez please

[G-Man]

You know what's hilarious?

GOOF-MAN IS NOW ON RORSCHACH'S LIST

Thanks, Rico, this cheered me up. :P

Also, rez please

Oh, I'm not finished with you yet.

[Marmot]

G-Man, are you a member of mafia?

[Tangrowth]

Despite incredible disappointment at my death, I just wanted to say that this game really was a hell of a game. Props to Epi for making such an enthralling game, and I want to thank every one of you for putting the effort that you have to make this one a nailbiter. It is a testament to the host and my fellow players that I had a knot in my stomach watching practically all of Day 6, especially in the final moments.

It's been nice to get to finally play with you, G-Man, after all these years where you only hosted me once.

I'm really glad I could make this my last game on TS until after the honeymoon.

Don't worry, I'll be back and annoying you all in mafia games in less than a month. :P

[Marmot]

Despite incredible disappointment at my death, I just wanted to say that this game really was a hell of a game. Props to Epi for making such an enthralling game, and I want to thank every one of you for putting the effort that you have to make this one a nailbiter. It is a testament to the host and my fellow players that I had a knot in my stomach watching practically all of Day 6, especially in the final moments.

It's been nice to get to finally play with you, G-Man, after all these years where you only hosted me once.

I'm really glad I could make this my last game on TS until after the honeymoon.

Don't worry, I'll be back and annoying you all in mafia games in less than a month. :P

At that point, you'll be doing nothing but hosting games since your games will get moved back and congested. :P

I used to have a standard rule of them for mafia that I haven't followed in a long time. If a player had fewer posts in a game than the host did, I would vote for them. However, this rule should not apply when Sockface is hosting. See Death Note.

[Marmot]

EBWOP: Standard rule of *thumb*, not 'them'.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

How does one make 488 posts as a host?

[G-Man]

G-Man, are you a member of mafia?

I am not Big Figure.
I am not Moloch.
I am a Civilian.
My role still poses no threat to the civs.

[Marmot]

How does one make 488 posts as a host?

There were a lot of contests in that game that required MP to be around to answer questions and address other comments. Also, it was an incredibly complex game, so there were more questions upon questions upon questions about the mechanics for him to answer.

Oh, and Turnip Head and I were both unkillable baddies, so we spent a good portion of the game just trolling MP and everyone else.

[Tangrowth]

How does one make 488 posts as a host?

[Tangrowth]

How does one make 488 posts as a host?

There were a lot of contests in that game that required MP to be around to answer questions and address other comments. Also, it was an incredibly complex game, so there were more questions upon questions upon questions about the mechanics for him to answer.

Oh, and Turnip Head and I were both unkillable baddies, so we spent a good portion of the game just trolling MP and everyone else.

Actually, TH's role was more of a civilian-leaning independent, but he could have played it all like a baddie if he really wanted to. :P

[Marmot]

How does one make 488 posts as a host?

There were a lot of contests in that game that required MP to be around to answer questions and address other comments. Also, it was an incredibly complex game, so there were more questions upon questions upon questions about the mechanics for him to answer.

Oh, and Turnip Head and I were both unkillable baddies, so we spent a good portion of the game just trolling MP and everyone else.

Actually, TH's role was more of a civilian-leaning independent, but he could have played it all like a baddie if he really wanted to. :P

Well those dastardly civilians didn't win at all, but TH did. :P

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Vote/Suspicion Analysis on Ricochet.

I just realized there are A LOT of walls of texts this guy made during the game, and that I've spent most of the game skimming them. I have to stop doing that.

I'll try my best to be impartial here. I wasn't impartial in the previous ones I made, and that was a huge mistake of my part. It's part of what got MP lynched. I have to remember Ricochet doesn't necessarily fit my theory.

Day 0 / Day 1

Spoiler: show

Hey everyone. I don't like making apologetic posts much, but here's one bit of information and one bit of a heads-up. The first is that I'm not fully invested in the game yet, just yesterday when it started I had to take an exam, plus I'm feeling a bit down for personal reasons this time around, so I countered that yesterday with going to a movie, then watching at home Watchmen for three hours instead of tuning in here. Another remedy - and this is the heads up part - is that I'll be going hiking and camping with some friends this weekend (how very Marshy of me ), so I'll need to prepare for that as well, plus it'll probably cost me the voting on Day 2 (if I get to live this time until then ). Again, this is just to let you know, I'll do my best of course to contribute in the meantime, until I leave on Saturday.

Scotty, I am not a coaster and have never been one and that comment to G-Man was nothing but a joke (and an inside one too, given a reference from a past game that MP, the reference's creator in fact, was quick to acknowledge). The reason why I did actually zone out until right now can be read above in green.

I'd be able to offer links to each player's posts, but I see the Host has confirmed he will do so later. But if you need them sooner, just let me know.

I did some catch-up, but, as intense as it was, I'm not getting too much out of the D0 banter. Firstly, it strikes me as the first serious D0 one we've had since Death Note, with that D0 poll generating at least 10 pages or so of elephant talk. In that case, all the banter diffused once the majority decided to go for the regular, benign type of voting - which, in here, would translate to me that if the D1 ax won't fall on G-Man (although it currently seems like a possibility), Golden (which currently seems least likely to happen) or others involved, it will account for not much afterwards. Secondly, given the amount of fishing, rusing, jesting, banter and such, I either feel compelled to take it at face value or be slightly irritated by the "state something - launch debate/controversy over it - pull back by saying it was all a ruse or tongue-in cheek" dynamic. G-Man caught my eye with how, after almost an entire day of banter, policy talk and such, he himself seemed to finally acknowledge that his initial replies to Golden were also jest (second part of this post).

So what is it, in the end? Was it all a jest or are we trying to get something out of this eventually? There's no denying civs and mafia can both blend in on such banter occasions (thinking back to my Death Note, we had boo there, charming us with his analysis), but so far I'm not sure of any strong leads. I'm reading MP ok with his principles on the whole policy lynching thing and his inquiry of others. I'm reading Llama as doing regular Llama stuff on D0-D1, which is fishing and openly claiming a baddie read - except for maybe his Sloonei reasoning boiling down to "smileys and adverbs", because "it's reasonable guys", which is an eye-roller imo. For all the talk on "policy lynching" Golden based on his last baddie game: while I'm reading nothing suspicious in his posts so far, I can't help noticing how nobody's bringing Dharma up for the same "policy", considering how much he rekt the civs in Omerta.

So if it boils down to the originators of the whole banter, meaning Golden and G-Man, I think they both had a shaky start. Golden did basically start the whole thing, effectively signaling a meta from the sign-up phases that revenge lynching might be in store for him (including not just G-Man, but also MM and myself as players who might desire that ) and, after a few fluff and banter posts and being away whilst discussing was intensifying, he return to, in reply to MP's query, clear everyone except G-Man of possible charges and keep pressure on him. Others are finding this ok, since they themselves resonate with G-Man being suspicious, but idk, I'd keep this under scrutiny.

Then again, G-Man does indeed look worse in this equation, especially with how he decided at first to go ahead and call his "policy lynching" on Golden intentional and, as I've said, only after a full day to strongly claim it was just as jesting as everything else that's been said on the matter, by everyone else. Plus, in my catch up, other posts of his have also intrigued me, mostly notably this one, where he answers MP that he is not considering a policy lynch on Golden, yet Golden is his "contingency vote" if nothing else arises - which doesn't it sound a bit the same? To be fair, though, I'm reading his later explanations slightly better. There's also his answer to MM's question. If he accidentally claimed Watchmen, it's so interpretable, because the Watchmen go different ways and a lynch would probably have different repercussions for each one as well. Anyone has a take on this? I'm seeing only one instance of a "not posing a threat to civies", from the Watchmen that don't have secrets.

Oh christ I started this post an hour ago.

His first relevant post is this one, spoilered for the size. He has a lot of small thoughts about multiple players, but his main suspect here is G-Man, due to how he played the whole "policy lynching" thing on day 0.

I think this is my first game with a lie detector role, let alone being familiar with player habits all the way back to previous mafia communities, so I'm inclined to give a pass, if others will vouch for the use of such wording - although now that Golden has done so, I think LoRab did just the opposite (and Bass also thinks the same), so it's not quite settled. Also, the "claiming civ is roleclaiming, so I feared not to break the rules" defense is still kind of clunky.

The wording made me think more of an actual alignment claim slip. I've asked before, what do others think about it?

Takes part in the lie detector debate, but gives G-Man a pass for it. Could be intentional backing down, though G-Man is random enough that it's possible to have different opinions on different things he said. I'm giving this a pass.

Did anyone else notice how Elo seemingly jumped onto a vibes-based suspicion of Sloonei (which I held), and then dropped it, after I dropped it? What do folks think of that? I'm not sure what to make of Elo right now.

It did stand out to me that she worded her suspicion roughly the same way you did, yes. Her backing out was also far less elaborate or reasoned than yours (which followed after some dialogue with Sloonei, at least): from "Just something about him reads scummy to me. Can't put my finger on it." to "I am failing to find anything that sticks out to me as scummy." with not even a post in between.

Rico, thanks for answering. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who thought that, I figured maybe I was just being paranoid. I'm not sure what to make of it. Do you have any thoughts on Elo re: alignment and experience with her?

Can't say I do. With just four posts, it's mostly the mirroring of your suspicion on Sloonei (and rather poor quality of it) that stands out. I also thought she twisted a bit you saying you'd only support voting a no-shower by asking you if you've never voted for low posters (which is technically not the same thing), but then you gave her a full answer, so maybe it was just me. I'd also agree with Scotty that, for a player who encouraged people to post and play, her current post count is kinda ironic.

Agrees that Eloh's backing down on Sloonei stands out. Doesn't outright suspect her, though.

Some other quick thoughts I have:
I have expressed vague support of G-man, but I don't necessarily have him as a town read. That said, I don't support any of the cases I have seen made against him thus far. That does not mean he should not be looked at further.

I do not wish to OMGUS thellama, but I find his case against me to be a bit weak and that is something that could become suspicious down the line, depending on how it progresses, but for now it's too early to make a judgment.

I am now 10 minutes late for work, woohoo

Hmm, really? Only "vague support"? I'd say it more than that. This slightly feels like a fine tuning, for some reason.

His only interaction with Sloonei. If this is bussing, this is a very safe, inconsequential one, since he is only making a tangential comment about what Sloonei said, without calling him civ or mafia.

linki MP: I am slightly surprised, for sure. I don't think he's backing away from "not supporting the cases" against G-Man, for which I believe she argued against quite actively (and in lieu of G-Man whilst absent, on top of that), but my impression was that he did more than vaguely support him, yes.

When asked by MP what the interaction means, he says this. He is "slightly surprised" about how Sloonei acted about G-Man, but still, no suspicion.

Also, I have literally zero suspicion of sloonei. I do not yet see any reason to think he is bad and I have not really agreed with any of the cases on him. I think he is the person who looks most at risk of suffering my econ day one fate - someone that no baddie is going to be sad to see lynched because he can be a threat to their chances of success later on. I'm much more wary of those who have simply jumped on the 'sloonei looks bad' bandwagon than I am of sloonei.

That includes Elo, though.

He wants to remind people that Elo had a weird behavior regarding the Sloonei thing.

Is Elo the only player you would consider voting today?

Would you caution others against voting for Ninja, based on your thoughts here?

It's the player I'd lean towards, right now. It's not a very strong pool of baddie reads for me this Day 1.

I'd caution votes for her to be well reasoned, because it feels an easy slide for bandwagoning to jump on.

Leans towards voting Elo, but admits he doesn't have a strong poll of suspects. Is worry about Eloh being an easy wagon, though.

For a post in which she implies she took a stance after closer re-reading, Ninja sure went back to agreeing with llama on things and reading Sloonei as off based on that.

What are you thinking, Rico?

I don't know. It's 10 minutes to go and it feels crazy. It doesn't feel bandwagony, but I guess I still would have wanted to read more words of her own, since she intended a comeback for a serious case.

Very mixed opinion on the nijuu wagon.

This is impossible to fully address. How 'bout we start endgame two hours earlier next time? Sticking with Eloh for now.

Eventually, he votes Eloh. He is the penultimate player to vote, and Eloh has zero chance of dieing, so it's an useless vote in a mechanical sense. But it's consistent with Rico's previous suspicions.

One thing that pinged me is that, at least on day 1, Rico is very careful about calling anyone bad. He is afraid of jumping on wagons and isn't sure about his suspicions. If he is a civ, it's a responsible approach to the game from a player who is afraid to make stupid mistakes, specially on day 1. If he is mafia, it's a way to stay in the sidelines and avoiding making a vote too meaningful (and also avoiding Rorscharch's possible wrath).

I'm gonna have lunch now. The rest of the ISO will be in the next few posts.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Night 1 / Day 2

Ricochet goes hiking during this section of the game, and misses the vote. He makes only post during Night 1:

Sleep myself. I'd say this keeps G-Man on the table, because that was intense support from Sloonei, especially done while G-Man became absent (and G-Man missed the voted today). Of course, it could be latching up to someone not from the team, but that interval of defending GMan in his absence, plus that time Sloonei actually backpedalled a little, saying he just offered "vague support" and G-Man should still be looked into, gives a lot of pause. I'll have to look into others as well, though.

Keeps his suspicion on G-Man, now stronger because Sloonei's suspicious defense of him.

Night 2 / Day 3

Once I found out that it was possible that none of the four were bad, I wasn't comfortable voting LC

Doesn't the prospect of all four candidates not being bad apply to all of them being "uncomfortable" to vote, in that case? You just voted MM, then, because he's MM and voted himself before going absent for the entire Day? You didn't vote timmer when he voted himself before going absent for the entire previous Day.

There are multiple posts about Eloh but I'm only quoting the most recent in this series. He keeps looking at her, for her day 1 play, and now for her day 2 vote too.

Spoiler: show

OK, so I will also resort to individual reads, based on players' lists, to make up for the phases I missed. On the bright side, it will be a colorless list and I'll try to keep it tight (post-writing edit: but utterly fail!! ).

An active Bass is a peculiar Bass in itself for me. The civviest Bass I can think of is a great reader in few words. Well, his D1 was almost his most active Day I can remember from playing with him, but also with a lot of stuff that reads fine. On the plus side, his suspicion on Sloonei which, even though he didn't carry it all the way to a vote, cultivated in way his lynch. I think his issues with Sloonei being so inquisitive (about others' opinions on him) were prior to Llama himself switching from fishing Sloonei using the adverb-smiley gambit to openly reading him as bad due to being over-defensive. I'm doubtful Bass would be mafia and create actual pretexts for the civvies to use lynch his teammate. On the minus side, his siding with LoRab on the LD issue re: G-Man, although mildly so, since he was more wary of wording than of LD detectability meta as old as the internet. His Scotty jump vote spreaded the poll to maximum at that time, but it was fairly consistent with a full day of eyeing Scotty. He hasn't kept his D1 form since, in fact his D2 is almost without any substance and his vote for MM isn't like to any actual suspicion (apart from banter), but it sounds like the four-player poll wasn't much for him to go with. So not flawless supatown, but right now leaning civ.

I'm sympathetic towards Cookie and want to reiterate what others have already said that she's adapting fine to a completely unfamiliar (for instance, not getting much in the open thread out of role checks, tracks and such) setup, but hopefully she can truly get past the overwhelmed feelings and try to give her best, whether it's reads, gut feelings, anything. The most important thing I want to stress is that, yes, I think you should state anything you want to say and that you should not give up on catching up and posting thoughts on players simply because others have already brought it up. The one post making me doubt a little that she'd be involved in a team is this one, because I remember "newbies" often getting scanned to tell if they get BTSC help and stuff like that makes me feel (along with the countless adjusting questions) she's actually on her own. Her D2 vote isn't great, but there's insuficient data to tell if she simply coasted with the general "this four-player poll isn't too effective, I'll go with my strongest suspicion" mentality or not. Neutral, but not without some qualms.

Maybe I'm truly alone with this nagging thought, but DharmaHelper at his helpiest is still on my mind for crushing the civilians back in Omerta - and I didn't even last long enough to get burned by him, given how the civs themselves didn't like my omelette too much, so I shouldn't need to be the person to keep that meta into check. He even referenced that, in an exchange with MP ("You are reminding me of me, when I'm bad and I want to take the leadership role in the thread."), which could normally be perfect meta. To some relief, I'm not seeing quite that level of pack leading and "helpiest" - case in point, his D2 was kinda crap and his LC vote is shoddy even after hindsight reasoning. Otherwise, I'm not picking something unusual out of his D1 pings (contrary to DDL, I can sort of appreciate "alternative route" reads when I find them substantial enough) and, though he hasn't concluded, I don't have issues with his reads today so far. Erhh not on my suspects list right now.

If we are to respect Golden's legacy reads, then DDL should normally be on the table, because admist the general "Golden's the worst of the four bunch" apathetic reasonings, he crafted and entertained a lynch case. Strangely, though, I'm rather seeing signs of a hunt gone bad. There are some creaks, otherwise. His Day 1 game was affected by RL, but his Sloonei reasoning is indeed a bit "mirroring" some suspicions expressed before, even though he claims it was gut based - if it was, I'm not reading it quite as genuine as Bass' one, for instance. I'm also curious why he finds MM to be almost as unintelligible as Vompatti and would leave it at that for now. Don't think I can call him a pure-blood civ at all, but I'm not reading him mafia either. Fool me twice, of course, if once again the more focused and hunter he seems, the more he's actually he's hiding a killer face under that straw hat.

-- Side note at this point. I can't project in such detail as up to certain roles. DH, what makes you think DDL qualifies as Moloch? What would be his interests or MO as him?

I'm not deaf to Elohcin saying that being jokey relaxes her and stating time and again her reasoning for focusing on, off and then decisively on Sloonei, but I strongely feel her gameplay so far is very messy. The way DH wrote her synopsis so far, I'm seeing a lot of jumpiness of suspicions already laid out: G-Man and Sloonei were already slight mafia reads to MP and Llama by the time she called them as well. Her initial to and for re: Sloonei mirroring MP was documented. She also liked MP's Scotty case, as soon as he switched to that. From the Sloonei voters still alive, I'm definitely still looking at her and espers more than DDL (even though, as I mentioned, his voting wasn't too genuine either). I also think DH's point is interesting, that her voting Ninja (without ever having mentioned her) or spreading to other choices, in light of Sloonei flipping bad, would have been a disastrous baddie move, if she is baddie. Only positive move I can read is not giving into voting Golden just because his vote reads the worse. But even on D2, I already posed her some questions on her reasoning. I don't know, but I simply can't move my trust-o-meter on her an inch out of the negative zone. If not an Inmate, maybe Moloch, disinterested in where the lynch actually lands on?

espers - timing of vote and switch from DDL suck, though I'm not entirely reading his rebuttal to DDL on the switch matter as unreasonable. Missed D2 completely and I haven't picked up anything consistent from him since, except for the plan to correlate relationships with Sloonei based on posts - which is undergoing and probably not heading to a completion on this Day. Not sure what to fully make of all this; slight mafia read.

-- DH, can you point out where you noticed espers' "assertion that he suspected Sloonei all along, but did not verbalize it in the thread"? It would make me suspect espers more as well, but I can't seem to find it. --

Long Con - Back on track after D1 and I can't say I have issues with his leads. His pick of the Eloh suspicion was a bit of a grab from what others posted (namely, me), but afterwards he developed it into an actual debate whether both Sloonei did hard distancing or planting for a mislynched. His D2 Golden vote was as sketchy as all the others that were in the "X is the short straw of the four" format. No beef with him, so far.

LoRab - Short and sweet, I ultimately don't like her LD debate build-up and push on G-Man, because I remember somebody pointing out (although I fail to remember who, right now) that the issues she had - with the lie detectability of statements such as those made by G-Man on previous websites or with G-Man way of wording and careful gameplay on the same previous website - were actually no issues at all, which makes me not understand why she would bring them up as issues. Also, her vote for Golden stinks the most, timing and reasoning alike: Golden's use of the "I'm a very important civ" defense is scummy? I've been through Biblical where this defense was used twice and I've succesfully refrained from lynching either players (who flipped civ in the end; they even flipped the role they hinted at, too). Plus, she went more for the thrills of watching a tiebreak unfold, rather than strongly believing in her lynch choice. I don't know her gaming ways, I can tell she likes to take on heat and act hardcore, but I can't say I trust her one bit so far. I'd consider voting her.

MetalMarsh89 - Here's my take on it. I know two baddie versions of MM, from experience. One that takes heat on, can be confrontational, can self-vote, can end up lynched (eventually) without leaving that many crumbs to his teammates [Film Directors] and one that can spam and fluff and be incessantly random, can self-vote, can attract lynches and/or kills, yet intentionally so due to high abilities [Death Note]. Both explanations can be valid in this game, if you think for a sec - I'm particularly intrigued by the idea (LC's was it) that he could be the Comedian, although it doesn't feel like he actually rused the baddies as much as basically everyone, so I'm not buying it. For some reason, I'm inclined to see his baddie game in this one.

Russtifinko - He was at 10 posts when I returned to Mafia this afternoon, out of which I got absolutely nada, and has evolved so far with 4 more meatier posts. My only meta from ever playing with him (in Donner, where he was and remained a pure-blood civ) was being active from D0 and taking heat on some controversial views, without getting lynched in the process. (I don't remember much besides that, because I was "evicted" early). Overall, if he intends to get on board from now on, I'll all for that. No beef with his content so far, neutral.

Timmer - LINKI: bye timmer

G-Man: |


MP: :̡͇͎̼͍̲̺̫̩͓̑̋̊͆͌̒̈́̿̏͗|̢̛̦̟̬͖͕̺̬͔͗̾͗̂̆́̊̔̚ͅ|̢̧̻̭̗͍̙̰͇̦̊̇̄̇̿̄̐͊̚͝


I'm sorry, I'd really want to offer eloquent reads on them as well, but it's 3am and I don't think I can wrap it up. I have to confess G-Man's out-of-sync with real-time phases catch-up were indeed slightly tortouos and I got nothing out of them except for his criticism of MP - I understand his need to go through them after losing initial content, nevertheless... I can't read much baddieness into him at the moment, but I can hardly elaborate on that either. Neutral. Some of the points made about MP are interesting, but it wouldn't be fair is for me to simply coast on them right now, because I'm unable to finish synthesize his posts due to the amount and the time I have left; suffice to say I had a vibe, back on D1 endgame, that his hesitation to decide on a right voting choice, up until Scotty's actions displeased him into switching to him, could be interpreted both ways. But I should really find a way to elaborate my own read based on this and anything else. I can try to re-read in the time that's left, unless I'll have to participate in more discussion (which I imagine I will), but not much hope.

Big TL/DR on what he thnks about everyone. To summarize, the ones he has a mafia read are: Elohcin ("can't move his trust-o-meter out of the negative zone"), espers ("not sure what to think of, slight mafia read"), LoRab ("doesn't trust one bit, would consider voting"), and MM ("inclined to see his baddie game on this one"). Everyone else is neutral or better, and I have no idea what he thinks of MP or G-Man because of the jokey comments.

Later MP asks him who he suspects and he names the same four.

Then MP asks who he'd vote "right now", and he nails it down to two:

LoRab or espers. The latter for her Sloonei vote and reasoning looking bad, the former for specifically what I said, especially her Golden vote and push into a tie.

But later:

So after a post in which I call Eloh on suspects jumpiness, she literally jumps on DH based on DDL's read on him and switches from inquiring MP on his Cookie suss to thinking it could make sense.

The case on Eloh returns with a vengeance.

It just keeps dwindling in the bad zone. I also found her take on DH's ISO, as a fellow ISO'ist at least, pretty mischaracterizing.

Can we switch places and hear from you on espers and/or LoRab? I've read the former fire red in your list, but I didn't get an input since you posted your pending choices.

Well "doesn't truly care who gets lynched" sounds very Molochian to me. If you think LoRab fits the description, I'm thinking Eloh does as well.

He is still interested on the espers and LoRab cases, though.

Fuckin' shootout, then. Went with gut. Eloh.

Again, the penultimate vote in the phase. DH and espers are tied for the lynch. Ricochet goes with his gut and opts to leave the decision to the RNG gods, sticking with his old suspicion on Eloh while not taking part in the lynch. For someone who once called espers a bad read and DH a good read, I find it weird that he didn't take the chance to make those opinions count. The Eloh vote is consistent with his reads, but at this point, Rico himself admits he was having trouble deciding, so he didn't HAVE to pick Eloh. I called MP out for the exact same thing though, and Rico could be legitimately ignoring the poll while wanting to vote with his opinion.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Night 3 / Day 4

Off the top of my head, I wouldn't be surprised if Eloh would copy this technique from how her baddie husband did it back in Guess Who. But I'm sure others can be just devious.

The crusade continues.

Spoiler: show

Welcome, TinyBubbles. And welcome back, Scotty, I don't think I've said it yet.

I want to study and jog during the next two-three hours, so posting a first half of updated reads, resuming afterwards.

Bass - Bye Bass. His form was clearly dipping to absenteeism since D1 and LC's death has him in sight for suspicion (or meant to paint him as such), but I think I'll wrap up his game read with more pluses than minuses, so slight civ read. Looking forward to see how TinyBubbles evolves

-----

Cookie has had a very bad D3 endgame, so it's only natural to suspect her after that chain of events: she said she's working on the suspects list, she nominated DDL (based on something from his arguing with Golden on D2 and about his stance on late votes, but Cookie's suspicion on it reads to me a bit like waffle, frankly) and espers (for his D1 vote, not his posts) and exonerated Eloh; she asks why DDL reads DH as bad, but then, roughly 10 minutes later, decides to vote DH because of DDL - quite the adjustment for a player constantly having a hard time grasping everything that's happening; she doesn't undertand what was bad about her vote and her "hunches" (whatever that means); she evades a bit the question of why didn't she post her thoughts before voting, before saying she's bad at hunting and more used to vote without accompanying information or reasoning.

From what I've written before, that exchange with Sloonei is still the only thing making me question whether she would be on the mafia team and get open assistance/vouching in the thread, in such a style. It smells disaster, the way Sloonei vouched for her shy gaming style. So, to be honest, I'm still pondering if she made one hell of a blunder or she's playing her confused card to full effect, but I am certainly not glad how her vote contributed to the whole endgame blow up.

-----

Also natural is that DDL doesn't look as hot to me after D3's vote - although, at a lynch tally of bloody two votes, it's hard to call culprits and Cookie's vote still looks far worse. He's 0-2 in hunting, complete with full reasoning and heavy debates with the hunted ones, which he acknowledges. Might also have a bad N4 ahead of him, if Rorschach is still alive by then and decided to track him ([jokey] funny thing, Rorschach also respected Nite Owl II, so he might really not be pleased [/jokey]). From his debate with DH and MP, it is a bit intriguing the ISO angle he took at one point, but moreover because it polarized quite a bit of the endgame discussion; I'm not entirely sure if he forced it (the way MP suggested) or intentionally fed it to the thread, but it's a peculiar angle nonetheless; on the other hand, his posts didn't look too bad to me once I got his main point that he suspected DH for other things, that he disliked some of DH's points on him and that DH making ISOs wasn't the charge, it was just something that didn't change his [DDL's] mindset a whole lot.

However, I have one theory in mind and it has to do with DH's ISO on him. Now, since DH flipped Nite Owl, I've stated in the thread and still am keeping in mind that DH could have used up one or two abilities - protections notwithstanding - depending whether he created the D2 poll or not: so that's a lie detection and/or an alignment check. Remember DH's verdict on DDL? "My money has DDL as Moloch." This is really sticking out to me, now that I've gone back to read. As an ISO conclusion, it feels a bit detached or jumping a few steps, compared to the rest he wrote/commented on DDL. One good reason why that would be? He tried to plant the info. It's the only pin DH made on anyone. I've asked him why does he think DDL looks Moloch to him, exactly because it didn't seem to result from his read. DH never answered. I don't remember DDL disputing this statement either, despite, at the same time, disliking heavily and openly the things DH said about him. Maybe an attempt to sweep this under the rug? IDK, but it's on my mind.

---

Once again, you all will have to tell me why I should trust Eloh in this game, because I don't. Her D3 endgame was, alongside Cookie's, all over the place, for reasons of tiredness, lack of focus, giddiness etc. Yet she still played a part in the hustle and bustle. Yes, her D1-2 votes don't look as bad as others, although they're still debatable if backed up by good reasoning or timing. I just can't call her trustworthy during such times, when I'm trying to keep my head in the game. Even strictly factual, much of her D3 endgame makes little sense:

-- fears G-Man and LC might be Mafia (G-Man count: 1)
-- doesn't see case on Cookie
-- agrees with DDL that DH isn't genuine
-- suddenly agrees with case on Cookie as well
-- What does this post mean?
-- feels DH made good rebuttals
-- would vote espers from MP's lists, without feeling strongly about her
-- would vote G-Man or any quiet players (G-Man count: 2)
-- her last-second, "water gun" voting choice would be G-Man (G-Man count: 3)
-- votes MP

wat
My attempted version from all this would be that, considering how the voting went along, she could have done the following:

-- vote espers ("would vote espers from MP's lists") to tie at least or save DH ("feels DH made good rebuttals")
-- vote G-Man to tie him with DH and espers, at least, if she really feels that strongly about him - she said she'd vote him three times
-- vote Cookie once Cookie made her blunder vote and MP sanctioned her - although I'm not sure if there was still time, it was really on the last minute stretch - she agreed with the case on Cookie, didn't she?
-- vote a quiet player, since she stressed any of them makes her feel uneasy and her idea of mafia is that it's a quiet one

yet she did none of this. She voted the player she agreed with, the most active player in the thread and spread a vote absolutely nowhere.

Night 3 she think LoRab could be bad, Cookie could be bad, G-Man could still be bad. Interesting wording, too, either of them for her could be "the last two baddies". If Eloh's civ, doesn't she consider Moloch also a baddie? Could it be a slip, if she is Moloch?
I'm also wondering if she's not doing some distancing from LoRab. She could have easily voted G-Man together with her and push him into the tie or further, yet she didn't. She said nothing about her all game long until now.

---

Not much new on espers. He wondered why G-Man voted to try to save DH and I don't understand what's odd about it for him. His ISO attempts have been the least involved so far, he stopped after the first three players and has yet to pick it up.

---

I still don't have a strong read on G-Man, but it's fairly neutral and far from the same suspicions I have on others. Also, I'm thinking again of DH possibly using his lie detector whilst alive. He specifically didn't see the fuss about the whole LD debate, so it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination that he might have checked precisely what the fuss was about G-Man's statements and they might have come clean. He gave G-Man the most neutral-slightly positive review, without making a great effort to explain why that is.

I haven't skipped LoRab, but first

MM - I'm not too happy with my previous read, mostly because it was done under stress and tiredness, after hours of re-reads and one hour-ish left of D3. I can't actually say I'm grasping his game, but I'm swimming through fluff and banter through much of it, trying to find consistent stuff. That's, of course, not unlike him, but my gut tells me to suspect him and lean either bad or a Watchman, the kind that can maybe afford being detached or waffling without too many repercussions - it's not unlikely, if you recall Death Note (linki: Him saying right now how he doesn't care about G-Man voting him sorta makes me believes in the latter angle even more). He only appears to have picked and construct a case today, against LoRab, so maybe there's more to observe to him.

Also, I'm inclined to think his claim that he got something out of the D0 poll is bull - which isn't a plus in my read of him either. I think it's clear that the D0 poll took shape of the order in which the Host constructs his Day/Night post. D1 was Veidt-themed. D2 was Rorschach-themed. Not sure about D3, since Silk/Manhattan/Comedian were tied at two votes each. Anyway, I think that's all we're getting from that D0 poll, really.

linki @ MP: Let me finish (hopefully somewhere in the next hour or so) and I'll make my way through deciding who to vote for, as well.

The Day picking up in activity is messing with my abilities to focus and finish the reads. Why can't I do them at 10am in the morning?

Russ - Four more posts since my last read. Not much change, still neutral. Has said a number of times already that he only his mild suspicions on certain players; but he's vouching to "clean up his act", so looking forward to that. As I've said already, his rainbow WIFOM NK theory depends on how much we intend to speculate that it's Guess Who all over again and the Mafia are patterning their kills.

I can't say Scotty's death confirmed him as civ, but The Comedian's kill was probably as cold choice as it gets with ninja kills - if Llama was the Comedian, then I can hardly say it was indicative of anything. Then again, just like The Comedian used his kill on him, Manhattan might have used his rezz with some reason as well. So far his [Scotty's] reads seem fine. I could probably use an extra day of activity or such to try read him post-rezz properly.

TinyBubbles - Hi, TinyBubbles

ika - Hi, ika. Agreed on it not erasing espers' game and suspicions, so good luck ika, I can only say that you have quite a challenge ahead of you.

juliets - interesting reads so far on Cookie and LoRab.

Another wall of text, and a few more posts, with reads on everyone. Suspects this time are: Cookie (very bad D3 endgame so it's natural to suspect her), and Eloh ("you have to tell me why I shoud trust her".

The espers case is backed down to not having a strong opinion on. He is also developing some tinfoil theories on DH having lie detecting me. So yeah, Rico is not lying when he says he had a gradual suspicion of me througout the game, but until this point, he still thinks there's something genuine about me.

Also he did skip LoRab, though it was probably an honest mistake. I'd wager he still thinks of her as mafia at this point.

Spoiler: show

I'm going to with a gut opinion on MP and work my way back to the arguments or rely on discussing it with him or being linked to past explanations - sorry, but re-reading MP is constantly a heavy process that has found me closer towards the end of the Day the past two times and completely uncertain if I can complete it successfully in time.

I think he is clearly the heaviest participant, in terms of content, post count and analysis and the overall pattern I can describe for him is analytical, inquisitive and rather controlled in other regards (especially going ape when suspected, of course). I've both seen it before and yet not quite to the extent he's doing it here, in some details at least. I don't have any kind of strong suspicion on him, but that doesn't mean there aren't things I find shaky in his MO, either.

His ways of constantly questioning people for reads, vote choices, follow up questions and such are definitely forming a leitmotif; he has called questioning and poking the best way to potentially unnerve Mafia, which is fair, but overall I'm not entirely sure if it's a town-proof method or if it sometimes feels like he's putting up a screen by making others think of their own choices, rather than exchanging it both ways. This is very stream-of-consciousness read into his ways of discussion, I know, but there you go.

As for the Rainbow NK theory, I've already said it can very well paint MP with WIFOM; I think it depends how much we're all willing to think about Guess Who and how the framing technique there could be potentially replicated here. Did MP himself keep up with that game enough to realize that pattern? For the moment, I'm willing to call it a stretch.

The one thing that truly makes me wary about MP sometimes is the way he pushed his reads and votes very close to the end on both D1 and D3, including feeling constantly hesitant about certain players or mulling over voting on them, the stream of questioning others rather than, at times, focusing on wrapping up his own thought process and decision making and such. His Scotty and Cookie votes can be seen two ways (or more? idk), methinks: either both Scotty and Cookie spooked him with their odd timing and voting choices, enough to make him jump on them instead (with enough reason to it, as well), either he's keeping the fishing rod in till the very end of the phase and jumps on choices that stray from the main lynch paths - denoting either a reluctance or fear of mislynching (Rorschach's gambit) or a non-committal way out of the lynch phase.

Working on Elo ISO now.

Regarding espers, I think the fact that espers chose to get a replacement, instead of attempting to complete what he started, pings me considerably. I know it's WIFOM, but I don't understand why a civilian would replace out amid such heavy suspicion, especially when other candidates became a possibility instead of him today (such as Cookie and LoRab). I think espers was hoping that it would buy him the necessary time to stay away from lynching.

Also, espers never really left my "scummiest" read, since he was at the bottom yesterday. I am trying to not tunnel "easy" reads that the thread seems to mostly suspect, because I don't want us to fall into autopilot mode, but I realize today that perhaps I'm trying to overcompensate too much in that regard and that I should continue to apply appropriate pressure if someone is truly acting scummy. espers kept promising baddie hunting, but never delivered, and his D1 vote still reeks of last minute bussing.

Maybe so on paper, but you also

"had doubts about espers being mafia"
weren't sure you "want this to become a LoRab/espers contest"
were "hesitant, especially because I don't want to create a meaningless lynch with a bunch of votes on only espers"

He asks MP tricky questions, and seems to be agreeing there's something fishy about him, but doesn't quite jump on the MP case. Makes a big post evaluating MP but doesn't get to a sure read.

Spoiler: show

So LoRab asked me to go back and read her posts the other Day, with 10 minutes before deadline - which is my favourite time to do that, how did she know, having never played with me before?!. The topic being about never having brought up G-Man's past games. I can agree my wording wasn't perfect, but I still find that she referenced meta as old as the internet, including the subtext that G-Man used to play in those times, so fully aware of the implications of games with LD. Here's the fragment

n the one hand, back in the day (when GMan was a regular) on LP/Piano, lie detector roles and statements became a thing and how people phrase statements and asking everyone to make "An LD Statement" became something of a controversy. In addition/as a result, in many games, "I am a civie" wasn't a detectable statement, so people would often not use it and got in the habit of not just saying that.

I don't intend to go over the entire LD debate, but what I meant in my previous read of her is that it stuck out to me that she's making a case over this meta while another player (Golden) felt better about G-Man wording, based on the same meta.

When there is a lie detector, baddies do all sorts of things in posts in order to try to avoid outright lying while making themselves seem like they're claiming to be civ. I've seen it happen before, especially when they've been called out for phrasing things oddly.

I'm feeling better about G-Man. Not 100% better, but a fair bit better.

I sort of understood the suspicion around his curiously worded statement, until we started getting into the lie detector stuff. Then I remembered how, back in the STV days, (ah, the STV mafia days) wording statements in that kind of way was completely normal. I had actually completely forgotten how we used to draft everything in such a way that the lie detector might be able to check us out, and because they couldn't check statements like 'i am civilian', you did used to say stuff like 'i am not a threat to the civilians'.

G-Man has been on break since STV days until very recently, so when I thought that through I realised that it would be pretty logical some of his phrasing would show vestiges of the way we used to do things on STV.

DH took some heat for choosing alternative routes on D1 - criticising the LD debate and voting LoRab for it - but I'm actually inclined to believe that this was LoRab's "alternative route" to almost everything on D1 end phase, apart from, at one point, being pinged by LC (who was also hardly). I can understand her hunt for details and patterns, but this is how I feel about it, mostly.

Moving on to things I can actually not truly get past, how notable is it that she then criticised Golden for a clean civ claim (if only extremely validation-seeking one). She called G-Man bad for "convoluting" his civ claim, yet also called Golden untrustworthy for his clean civ claim. Again, not believing Golden's civ claim, in dire lynch times, isn't completely unreasonable, these kind of civvieness vouches do often get the player in more trouble than before - yet the fact that she hinged her entire Golden case, calling it a situation of not having strong suspicions from the four-player poll (except LC getting a pass for having done role speculations), reads to me as a weak grasp. Then she got absorbed by the idea of creating a tie "just for fun": first considering MM, then waiting for the scenario to be completed at the point of Golden having to vote in self-defense and force the tie.

Golden, I'm voting for you. I expect you to vote for MM. We'll let the powers that be decide what happens next. Seems like the fairest thing to do. Although scariest.

Plus further insensitivity

If it makes you feel better, it's not that I disbelieve you. In a regular lying [sic], I'd probably not have lynched you. I'm also always curious what happens with a tie.

Seems you need to vote regardless of their coming back.

Any last words in case you go?

For a player with old principles on what civvies would say or do, I am disliking how she treated this lynch quite profoundly. This D2 vote of her stinks and I can't get past it at all. This is what prompted me to say she's disinterested in the turnaround of lynches and stuff, which she then also started denying.

Thirdly (or secondly, on the things that weigh more), it has been pointed out already (Scotty, I think) that, after three Days, LoRab is making repeated civ claims, in basic form, nevertheless ironic in relation to lynching Golden for his, more evolved, similar claims. Plus the tone has changed significantly from "eye me all you want", "I don't mind suspicion" to

I'm not bad, and it would be funny that people seem so sure of their suspicion of me if it weren't so darn frustrating

Finally goes back to the LoRab case, and as I guessed, he still suspects her.

But you didn't make a deciding vote. You made a tie vote and you waited (and wavered between the candidates) till the tie would have been decisive. Why not vote for MM the first time you saw a tie opportunity (4-4 each) I think and feel good about the same rationale that "the gods will decide" or someone else left to vote will take the lynch in a different direction?

Instead, you designed the tie at 5-5, forced Golden to have to save himself and counting the three votes left as improbable to ever happen. Would this sound like a fair tie making to you, if someone else would have done it?

Further arguing with LoRab. He suspects her intentional tie on day 2, and her wanting to leave the decision to chance. Weird, since he allowed a similar thing to happen in day 3, though to be fair refusing to break a tie is not as bad as tieing a poll on purpose.

My gut read of ika is that she landed on a bad role and is bombing the thread kamikaze style. No way am I getting into more reading than that, at this stage of the Day - I don't even know her style from previous games; I think she was in Omerta...and didn't do shit...?

Right now, I'm considering voting the following

LoRab (shall I make a tie for her? )
ika

and thinking about how I feel on Russ.

Cookie also in mind. I see she stuck to her espers read since ever and nothing more. Does that tell anyone anything new?

Wait, what happened to Elo?

This post made me ctrl+F Elo to see when was the last time Rico talked about her. And apparently he did stop talking about her for some reason. Wtf?

The rest of the suspects are the old ones. ika, Cookie, and LoRab. LoRab seems to be the main one, ika he has a pretty mixed opinion about (not reading much other than a player who got a bad role), and Cookie is Cookie.

There's also Russ, who he is trying to form an opinion on. Not really a suspect.

Sticking with my top read on LoRab. Hoping for a good result if ika is lynched, too.

He argues more with LoRab, and eventually votes her as promised.

Looking at the poll, he made the third to last vote. Ika could be saved if he had voted Cookie instead, but that would be such an obvious bad move I couldn't see Rico making. But voting LoRab would give him a very small chance of saving ika, since only three players were left to vote, include MissingBubbles and LoRab herself. If he is a baddie, I'd say he simply cut the loses and let ika go, making the most consistent vote with his suspicions he could possible make. If he is a civ, well, it's what I just said about consistency.

The backing down on the espers suspicion, compared to the previous phase, might be meaningful, but the previous suspicion was never that strong, so it's hard to grasp anything. What baffles me more is how Eloh suddenly disappeared from Rico's radar with no explanation. Did he want to stop tunneling? What would that mean to his alignment?

[Scotty]

Disappointing result. My being lynched would have been equally disappinting. Not sure a lynch of cookie would have been bad, having voted that way and all.

Thoughs haven't changed since I went to sleep. Hope to survive the night.

You're golden, I think I'm on the chopping block unfortunately.

Shame, because I feel like we really could have eliminated that problem.

So who do you see me is being elimininaed from that problem?

That sentence doesn't make sense.
But I'm talking about cookie

Honestly if I was BF, MP would have died in the NK when he first insisted that I was mafia, I think it was D3 or D4 when he put a lot of heat on me.

Actually that's not the best strategy. Ricochet puts it nicely:

If you ask me, MP was kept in the game due to the high potential of being lynched. That he himself started a huge case on a civ Eloh must have been even more of a delight for BF and Moloch.

Why not keep in MP, who's already garnered a lot of heat, and had been wrong on so many separate occasions? He could get lynched instead (the Elo vote was the deciding factor, methinks), and he did.

Guess who was the first to vote Cookie Day 4? Me. I thought that a mafia would be trying to float by, to blend in. Espers was lynched, he flipped bad, and ika even voted for you, so I took a step back- just a step- for how implausible it was for you to be Big Figure. Sweet, newbish, frustrated Cookie. Now knowing that MP backed me up on Day 4 is just dandy, and gives me even MORE conviction that you are bad. I mean, if you recall, MP stressed time and time again on Day 4 that espers was at the top of his read list, and in the end he voted for Cookie. Could it be...that both were bad and he was giving a hint? He wasn't right on the Elo vote, nor was I (going back to Day 1) but I would find it hard to believe MP would be wrong on all of his reads.




I have essentially not garnered heat like MP has, and I am going full fledge semi through the tunnel mode. If BF kills me tonight, look no further than Señorita Galleta tomorrow.

Good night friends, I'm off to work for the night.

[Tangrowth]

Well those dastardly civilians didn't win at all, but TH did. :P

Well, that's true. Hence "independent". :P

Also, now that I'm dead in this game, I'm pumping myself up for hosting Talking Heads Mafia with a new look.

[Marmot]

Well those dastardly civilians didn't win at all, but TH did. :P

Well, that's true. Hence "independent". :P

Also, now that I'm dead in this game, I'm pumping myself up for hosting Talking Heads Mafia with a new look.

You ought to be more careful. You're setting a bad example.

[Tangrowth]

Well those dastardly civilians didn't win at all, but TH did. :P

Well, that's true. Hence "independent". :P

Also, now that I'm dead in this game, I'm pumping myself up for hosting Talking Heads Mafia with a new look.

You ought to be more careful. You're setting a bad example.

I'm mad... and that's a fact!!!

[Ricochet]

Now answer me this question: assume you are Big Figure. You have to get rid of me, just like you have to everybody. There are two methods that you can emply to do that. One is the night kill, the other is a lynch. Based on how I've played this game, which one would be the option of your choice?

I can't help but feel this to be a bit entrapping, considering that those are two scenarios out of three that can happen to you at any time (the third being that you survive until endgame) and since you only asked me, either your night kill or a lynch in which you'd actually flip civ would create incentive for the others to look back at me, in case what I'd answer would match how your demise went through. If you aren't bad and actually concerned of what Big Figure might try to pull on you, you could try get an answer out of everyone, but even that's not too kosher, because that's not how Mafia is played - talking in the open about what our favourite discard method would be, if we'd be assigned a bad role, would attract WIFOM. What I can say is that the only time I've been mafia in a team (the second time I've been mafia I was a dormant solo one till the end with a win con grab), my impulse was to get rid of dangerous civs by NK rather than cook a lynch for them.

From what you wrote on me so far, I just want to correct this

Is Elo the only player you would consider voting today?

Would you caution others against voting for Ninja, based on your thoughts here?

It's the player I'd lean towards, right now. It's not a very strong pool of baddie reads for me this Day 1.

I'd caution votes for her to be well reasoned, because it feels an easy slide for bandwagoning to jump on.

Leans towards voting Elo, but admits he doesn't have a strong poll of suspects. Is worry about Eloh being an easy wagon, though.

I was actually worried about Ninja being an easy wagon, not Eloh. It should be clear from the dialogue, even from structure: second paragraph answer to MP's second paragraph question.

As for Eloh dropping from my radar on D4, I think there's a difference between writing a wrap-up post on whom I'd vote for upon a looming deadline, which that post reflects, and writing a post on who do I (still) suspect. From what I remember, it was a fairly hectic end of D4 in which I debated with LoRab very heavily, I witnessed ika bombing the place, I had to address MP's sudden case on Russ (which I never accomplished) and even MP's bit exagerrated criticism of Russ (that he never brought before in the game the charges he was bringing then to MP), followed by a sudden mellowing on Russ - which generated the first suspicions on him being a flip-flopper. In contrast, I only recall Eloh's utter disdain at ika's gameplay, with which I had no issues. So yes, I did technically happen drop Eloh out of sight, since she didn't do anything to ping me, but I didn't drop her as a suspect, as my ISO of that day shows. In retrospect, I feel I was aroused a lot by Eloh's awry gameplay on both days I voted her - both for what seemed to me as switcheroo'ing on Sloonei (D1) and especially on D3 when her completely erratic EoD turned my suspicion senses up to eleven. It's not a proud feeling, now that she flipped civ, but it felt justified at that time.

[Epignosis]

Made is replacing TinyBubbles.

[Made]

Yo. Will probably take me the (irl) day to catch up so see yall in a bit.

[Ricochet]

Wow.

Welcome tho, Made. Haven't seen you in a really long time!