Episode VII - the Force Awakens

[Epignosis]

Spoiler: show

We have Smash Bros. for the Wii U, and the Miiverse level enables people on the Internet to post messages during the battle, which is a horrible idea, given than it's people on the Internet.

This morning my kids were playing that level, and a message pops up:

"Han Solo dies"

[Ricochet]

Spoiler: show

We have Smash Bros. for the Wii U, and the Miiverse level enables people on the Internet to post messages during the battle, which is a horrible idea, given than it's people on the Internet.

This morning my kids were playing that level, and a message pops up:

"Han Solo dies"

Welcome to the internet. Population: shitty.

[A Person]

Spoiler: show

We have Smash Bros. for the Wii U, and the Miiverse level enables people on the Internet to post messages during the battle, which is a horrible idea, given than it's people on the Internet.

This morning my kids were playing that level, and a message pops up:

"Han Solo dies"

Had that spoiled for me on reddit by another kind gentleman. A majority of my friends had the movie spoiled by dillweeds out for lulz :\

I've seen the new Star Wars and I have some thoughts on it but I will write about that whenever I feel like writing about it.

[Epignosis]

Spoiler: show

Inside Out > The Force Awakens. No joke.

[DharmaHelper]

Spoiler: show

Inside Out > The Force Awakens. No joke.

Spoiler: show

I would DIE for Rey

[Ricochet]

Spoiler: show

Inside Out > The Force Awakens. No joke.

True, but neither rank that high on my yearly list, tbh.

[G-Man]

Spoiler: show

Finally saw it tonight! Without digesting it completely, I give it a 7 out of 10. That's higher than all three of the prequels, which is what I was hoping for. Good visuals but there seemed to be focus issues- lots and lots of blur unless the camera was perfectly still. Maybe that's more an issue with the theater than the actual film. Dunno.

I like the new characters. Poe seems like a Han Solo-esque hot shot, which is cool. Finn was a neat character even though his progression is rushed. Rey was pretty cool despite the few cheesy Instant Force moments. I liked the way they handled Han. It wasn't Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull redux. Older Han was still cool Han and his death (though spoiled for me by internet trolls) was sad but felt right.

I too could have done without all the tongue-in-cheek original trilogy meta references. That held it back even though it was supposed to be a wink and nod. Death Star 3.0 was underwhelming and a bit far-fetched. Seriously, did they really think the third time would be the charm? And how does an offshoot of the Empire's leftovers have enough money to build something like that?

Visually, it was pretty good (aside from all the blurry). A good mix of practical and special effects. The music is really strong too. I'm glad there were mostly new themes instead of rehashing the old stuff. Rey's theme reminds me of the tune from one of the Man with No Name films.

Basically, I got what I wanted- an old-school feel with new blood that can move on to new stories. TFA is a solid starting point for a new generation, if they do new things. There are unanswered questions and lots of new ground to explore. Jedi left us with a 'happliy ever after' vibe, so they've got their work cut out for them to make additional Star Wars films worth seeing. So far so good.

As for JJ Abrams- I've got a theory on him as a director. So far, none of his films have been bad. In act, they've all been pretty good or really good but never great. That streak has not changed yet.

[Matt]

Spoiler: show

I liked it. Is it kind of effed up that BB8 was my favorite new character?

[Matt]

And again...

[spoiler]I liked it. Is it kind of effed up that BB8 was my favorite new character?[/spoiler]

[Ricochet]

Not making a new thread for this.

My expectations for Rogue One

Spoiler: show

The acting / characters / plot will be ech, except for maybe big boys like Mendelssohn and Madsy.
It will be too quippy (yes, I mean that robot that already makes me grimace from the movie clips alone).
It will have a pre-SW visual great vibe to it, but still go into bombastic war overdrive.
I will hate every bit of Whitaker.
Darth Vader will have no more than 5 minutes, 4 appearances and 30 words in the whole movie.
A death star will blow up, only to reveal another death star in the background.
I will eat nachos and maybe get back in touch with mah best friend to go see this.

[Golden]

I'm looking forward to it, with slight nervousness. I am not really a movie critic in any real sense, since I'll gladly watch something utterly dross provided I enjoy every minute of it (for example, the criticisms that episode VII repeated episode IV plots didn't bother me at all, because I loved the movie and that is all that matters).

I'm not really sure what I expect from Rogue One. Maybe that's a good thing - I can't be disappointed if I don't go in with high expectations - but I still want to be entertained.

I love the cast (Felicity Jones being the only one I'm unsure of). Unlike Rico, I'll probably like Whitaker and also the robot (Who is, after all, Alan Tudyk).

In the end, if I feel immersed and it feels like it lives in the Star Wars universe, I'll probably be happy.

I bet it involves a death star, though...

[Dom]

I'm pretty excited to see it. Probably after Christmas or sometime next week if I get my planning together.

[Ricochet]

Ok I've seen it, when we talking about it? Is there an embargo set here for it?

[Golden]

Ok I've seen it, when we talking about it? Is there an embargo set here for it?

I think there is no reason to avoid discussion provided it is in spoiler tags.

[Ricochet]

Ok I've seen it, when we talking about it? Is there an embargo set here for it?

I think there is no reason to avoid discussion provided it is in spoiler tags.

Yeah, but it's no fun if I'm the only one who's ready (which is, like, barely, I've seen it two hours ago). How come Dharma doesn't have one full page already written here?!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I saw it.

[Golden]

Ok I've seen it, when we talking about it? Is there an embargo set here for it?

I think there is no reason to avoid discussion provided it is in spoiler tags.

Yeah, but it's no fun if I'm the only one who's ready (which is, like, barely, I've seen it two hours ago). How come Dharma doesn't have one full page already written here?!

Well, I've seen it and I'm ready to engage. Plus we are likely to have wildly different views since I think what we are looking for in a movie seems to be something quite different.

Spoiler: show

One of the biggest talking points out of it is the 'uncanny valley' effect with Tarkin, but for my money it wasn't bad at all. I was the only person in my group who knew Tarkin was being CGIed in the movie in a group of about 20 and no-one else realised that's how they did it (although, as it happens, some of them figured it out when they saw Princess Leia, because she was much worse/more obvious in my opinion). (EDIT: and my wife, who just saw it, just asked me 'was Leia CGI'. When I said 'yes, and so was Tarkin' she said 'didn't see that'. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that critics of the effect are going in knowing he is CGI in advance, and it is affecting their opinions. The fact that so many people don't even realise or notice suggests to me that it is a very successful effect.)

I thought he looked a little gaunt and his mouth moved oddly. But having since watched a bit more of live Cushing, I think perhaps that's because I had forgotten that Cushing is gaunt.

There was lots to like. I really liked most of the new characters. K-2SO and Chirrup in particular. I think Felicity Jones did a good job as Jyn - it's hard work to create a viable and real Star Wars character to be the lead whose entire story arc has to take place in a single film, and so there were gaps in her story that would have been interesting to explore. But overall I found her very likeable. I think the weakest character was probably Cassian (what even was that scene of his at the trading post at the start of the movie? What was it for?) But I like Diego Luna and so I forgave it somewhat. The visuals for most of the planets were stunning. I felt like they were showing us worlds that lived in that deep history of Star Wars. Particularly Jedha.

As for the basic plot - I liked it a lot. There was only really one loose end I wasn't so fond of as you go from Rogue One to Episode IV (which is - Captain Antilles claimed to Darth Vader that they were a consular ship on a diplomatic mission, but why would they have bothered to do so under the now clear circumstances? They would have been better escaping the plans on another ship and then transferring it in clear space somewhere).

I'm looking forward to watching it again, though, all in all.

[Ricochet]

Spoiler: show

Yeah, I'll try this tomorrow.

[a2thezebra]

The Force Awakens was so bad it made me appreciate the prequels. Rogue One was so bad it made me appreciate The Force Awakens. Will the next one be so bad it will make me appreciate Rogue One? I won't know because I won't be seeing it.

[Golden]

Does not compute!!!

[Ricochet]

Ok, so here goes. The first quote in spoilers should be... uhm, spoilers-free, just general remaks and quite a lot of ranting, but do NOT open and read the second quote at all if you have not seen the movie and wish to remain pure at heart. Just like with TFA, I must emphasize that I am not a trekkie (oh wait, wrong Sci-FI, abort abort!) I mean SW fan(boy). I do not have a lightsaber hidden under the bed, I do not have X-, A-, P-, G-Man-Wings models on the desk, I only have a GBA cartridge of a piss-poor Episode II game, that's it. I did have my childhood moment of watching the original trilogy, which moderately worked its charm, and then I watched the prequels for cringe, when the Blu-Rays were way past their expiration date. Nowadays, I am just bound by my weakness to go see blockbuster movies from blockbuster franchises, once in a while.

Oh, and once more, I must point out the hype was so great over here, that we were barely 50 in the IMAX theatre. Four days since the movie release.

Spoiler: show

So, yeah, overall, nope.

ALTHOUGH I will give you my honest raw impressions, during the viewing - I don't consider myself an intelligent or careful watcher on the spot, I process it later and/or get inspired by reading other reviews; not ashamed to admit it.

Acts 1 and 2 - zzzzz
Act 3 - whoa

That being said, the hardest thing is that I cannot argue what could have made it better. It seems stuck in its action-packed mission fantasy design. And it sends a signal, I think, that we should resign to the thought that we will not get standalone blockbusters, whether it's capemovies or space operas, that have engaging development, strong characters and narrative or great villains (although, in R1's case, I hardly think is the biggest fault; it was a known fact that everyone in the Empire is a hammy one-tone grandomaniac, save for the one compelling character without an actual visible expression, since he is behind a mask and a cloak).

It's just not going to happen. The franchise stakes are too high, the managerial tight grip and reshoot flubs keep happening time and again, the fan plate stuffing requirement is too demented... these things cannot breathe under the weight of their scale! Zebra is right, there is nothing really to look forward too, in terms of course-correcting this dispiriting vibe. R1 was the shot; it wasn't going to be disconnected from the lore, sure, but it could have been standalone enough on its own terms. The next anthology movies will be Han Solo, Boba Fett, Yoda, the Stormtrooper at the 1:45 mark in Episode II, Dexter Jexster, god knows what else. They'll be complete filler by sheer design! The only thing that comes to mind is Episode VIII, but only because of the likely impetus to reach for the mid-of-the-trilogy, ESB summit.

So while I think this is a Star Wars movie with a decent gritty tone, for a change, and with a climax action sequence that's worth it - which is surprising, because even here, in retrospect, we're basically served the same 40-minute long, everything blows up, kaboom stuff we've received from dozens of blockbusters in the past, ad nauseam; yet it kinda has an actual purpose and coreography - the rest comes up way too flat. And it's a shame. I'll probably go 5 out of 10 with this one, just like with TFA. I can't even debate right now if it's better than TFA. I mean, the sheer amount of nostalgic copypasta in that movie was ridiculous, but it still made me interested enough in characters like Kylo Ren, Poe or, to some extent, Rey, which is a chapter that closes real fast with R1.

Side note: This and Doctor Strange pretty much end it for me ever paying attention to the trailers any longer. It's patented bullsuit. I mean, the teaser trailer for R1 is a work of art compared to the movie.

Spoiler: show

Now, on to more specific points:

1. I can't believe how much reshoots keep plaguing this big-cashing side of the industry. I mean, what kind of bullshit freemasonry is going on there, that all across the big firms - Disney, DC, Marvel - the same thing gets imposed, again and again? For instance, despite my prediction coming true, I don't think I can truly hate Whitaker, because I find that the reshoots have made him look worse. As a blogger I read said, his acting looks stoned and pissy at getting a call to come back and redo everything.

2. I am fairly convinced that this movie's need to be a tie in with the precise beginning of ANH is what dynamites the entire story.
It limits so much the consequence of R1's narrative to the urgency and immediacy of the Death Plans getting not in rebel hands, generally speaking, but to Leia. Anything else would have either been a far stealthier rogue infiltration experience (probably better than this?) or a rewrite of the whole original SW narrative into the last 20 minutes of ANH [rebels get plans, ergo they can go destroy the sphere] (which is wtf). So, again, I'm not sure what fixing or alternative this could have used, but it feels strangled by its vain and nerdy idea of "let's make R1 segue right into ANH".

I rewatched the first two trailers (teaser and #1) [in which, btw, 90% of the scenes do no longer exist in the movie]. Mon Mothma to Jyn: 'We've a mission for you. A major weapon test is imminent and we need to know what it is and how to destroy it.' *throws hands in the air* How is this not the movie?! Where did Galen Erso appear from, afterwards, and how the mission change to 'Please lead us to your father (so we can secretly murder him [although that wouldn't change a thing, since the Death Star is bloody complete??????)'?! The last two minutes of this movie are depressing. What the hell was Leia doing amid that Rebel offensive? Either she was exposed to dying there and basically nothing happening further on, which is illogical, or (hint: true answer) she was hamfisted for the R1 - ANH tie in, but in a way that she is hardly relevant until she appears, which is unlikely given the narrative of the original movies.

3. The big action scene has a lot of "we need to reach A and connect to B and C and D in order to miraculously pull the whole thing off", but two reasons I am not really displeased with this is because: A) the actions scenes were never the big thing in Star War movies and R1 somehow pulls a better sequence than most, if not all of them; B) the actions scenes in the other SW movies were just as plagued by the same thing: ANH was a lot of pew pew pew to achieve one goal (blowing up the Death Star); TPM was a lot of pew pew pew to achieve one goal (blowing up a Federation Ship); RotJ had the same connect-the-dots thing, as far as I remember, AND a lot of pew pew pew to achieve on goal (blow up the new Death Star); the other prequels were total clusterfucks of pointless pew pew pew. So yeah, not going to roll my eyes at an actual purposeful, if still bloated, action scene.

4. The jump between planets and scenes and people and everything, during the first 10 minutes, gave me a headache. It was literally like watching the beginning of Suicide Squad all over again. I know such transitions are not unusual for SW movies, but it was, too, boring, and, jumpeeee!!!!

5. Is this a fan film? No question about it.

6. I'll admit I dropped into the uncanny valley for a while, but only until my brain jumped in with question of how can aging or makeup possibly work this way. (Had no idea the actor was deceased). I regard this CGI gimmick as a syndrome, perhaps singular to this franchise, of not wanting to tamper or remove a hairline from the saga's symbols. Surely there were stunt actors for absolutely everyone involved in action scenes, right? And yet they couldn't find a suitable lookalike Tarkin?! Who the f in the world would care about Tarkin looking like in 1977, serious question! And changing Leia for, like, the 20 seconds she's in the movie, for sheer R1 ---------> ANH purposes, would be a sacriledge, I assume? So yeah, what pisses me off here is how much self-importance the producers and writers (and, if they applaud it, the fans as well) must give to their precious lore and iconography.

6b. On the same subject, but with the variation of "omg, only James Earl Jones could possibly voice Darth Vader", please tell me I wasn't the only one who thought his voice was completely OFF in this movie. Like, almost as if he had forgotten half of the inflexions necessary to sound like Vader. Also, the front of the suit was awkwardly wobbling, I nearly chuckled (which, if you'd know me, is basically laughing out loud).

7. I also feel that, like Whitaker, the Chinese Guy with Stick's lines were reduced (or changed) to his worst ones. That being said, his "walk" moment was a thing of majesty and character pay-off. I'm also pretty ok with the bromance with Chinese Guy with Gun not having been too banter heavy. Too bad they were underused, of course.

8. As predicted, the one with the quips was the robot, but ech, I suppose it wasn't too much for my taste. Although if you are fine with a comic relief droid, while you cannot connect with any of the humans one bit, ... pfft

I wrote this for three hours and I am embarrassed with myself now.

[Dom]

Saw it last night-- rather enjoyed it.

HATED the subtitles of the planets. Clunky and not in the style of STar WArs. Missed the opening crawl, but understood why it was cut.

[thellama73]

I didn't read Rico's review before I watched the film, but it is spooky how he mirrors my exact thoughts in his comments. I'll go into a bit more detail in the spoiler tag below.

Spoiler: show

While I thought Act 3 was exciting, fun, and nostalgic, the rest of the movie was really boring to me. It's formulaic CGI action. The main reason it doesn't work is because Hollywood seems to have forgotten how to create characters. They plop a girl down, shoot her mother and say say "Look. Orphan. Care about her now. She's the main character." and that's it. I don't care about her. She hasn't been developed. She has no personality. I don't know what makes her tick, I don't see her develop. In short, there are no stakes, so all the shooting and lasers are meaningless to me. The only character that was likable at all was the Droid, because he had a distinctive personality.

Completely agree that the rapid location changes were disorienting and added nothing. The whole thing was generally too long. That being said, from the point when they start trying to steal the plans, it was pretty fun.

[Golden]

@llama

Spoiler: show

the beginning was a bit boring. I've rewritten the first half hour or so in my head...

I think the jyn and cassian establishment scenes were unhelpful. Either they needed to spend an extra 20 minutes up front establishing the jyn/galen/saw dynamic or they should have completely cut that bit, I think. I might have begun the movie with Bodie escaping and going to jedha, being captured by saw etc...

[DharmaHelper]

Rogue One was ok but I'm not going to see the Han Solo movie and I don't think they should crank these fuckers out like pez because I'm just not into watching 3 star wars films a year tbqh

[Dom]

I agree that the beginning was either too short or too long.

[G-Man]

I finally saw Rogue One tonight. I'll put some critical thoughts together tomorrow. For now, here are my two general takeaways:

1) They should have had a character named Kyle Katarn as part of the Rebel squad. I stole the Death Star plans hundreds of times as Kyle Katarn growing up.

2) My name is Galen. It's an uncommon name, so it was very, VERY weird to hear it said so many times in a movie.

[DharmaHelper]

After TLJ I have to say I dislike TFA significantly more.

[speedchuck]

After TLJ I have to say I dislike TFA significantly more.

Because you liked TLJ or because you didn't?

Because I could see it either way.

[DharmaHelper]

After TLJ I have to say I dislike TFA significantly more.

Because you liked TLJ or because you didn't?

Because I could see it either way.

I loved The Last Jedi. TFA was "A Star Wars" movie. TLJ was a great movie that was in the Star Wars universe. I think Last Jedi will hold up more, and stands on its own more, and TFA is, as time goes on for me anyway, more of a "Hey remember how cool THIS was from the Star War"

[speedchuck]

After TLJ I have to say I dislike TFA significantly more.

Because you liked TLJ or because you didn't?

Because I could see it either way.

I loved The Last Jedi. TFA was "A Star Wars" movie. TLJ was a great movie that was in the Star Wars universe. I think Last Jedi will hold up more, and stands on its own more, and TFA is, as time goes on for me anyway, more of a "Hey remember how cool THIS was from the Star War"

Good. I respect that opinion. I even agree with it. I would have disagreed with you otherwise.

[G-Man]

I'm going to have to watch The Last Jedi again to really make sense of my rating for it. My wife and I watched TFA again a few days before we went to see TLJ. TFA was very good until they rolled out Starkiller Base. Its tone was less serious than the original trilogy, which bugged me at times but it was probably just an updating of the wink-and-nod throwback humor in the original trilogy (which hearkened back to the serials of the 30s and 40s). The fact that they fell back on the superweapon-that-blows-up-planets plot was disappointing. The new characters were all very good. Han was too meta and Leia's presence felt unnecessary (minus the go find out son line).

Spoilers for The Last Jedi follow...

Spoiler: show

Where The Force Awakens borrowed heavily from Star Wars, I felt The Last Jedi borrowed heavily from Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. How is Empire structured? An early battle, someone (Luke) learning Jedi stuff while other stuff happens to fill the time between Jedi-learning scenes, and a showdown. How is TLJ structured? An early battle, someone (Rey) learning Jedi stuff while other stuff happens to fill the time between Jedi-learning scenes, and two showdowns (Rey v. Ren and Ren v. Luke).

I liked what they did with Luke Skywalker. Maybe they could have toned down the snark but I loved the brooding mopefest. He failed in a big way that mirrors Obi-Wan Kenobi and he hates himself for it. His reluctance to teach Rey makes perfect sense. I'm fine with just about everything from the Luke-Rey side of the film. My problems lie everywhere else.

The space chase side of the film contains all the timeline issues of Empire Strikes Back but amplifies it all by setting a hard number for the timeline (sixteen hours of fuel I believe?). That makes everything happen almost too fast for me to believe. In Empire, Luke seems to learn enough about the Force in a few days (maybe two weeks at the most?) while Vader chases down the Millennium Falcon. Granted, they set Rey up to be surging in Force sensitivity but I find it hard to believe that she learned much to strengthen her skills in the two or three days she was on Ahch-To. She's still raw, so I hope they bring Luke back to teach her more, especially after that Yoda scene. This begs the questions: how synced up are the timelines of Ahch-To and the space chase? Yeah, yeah, faster-than-light travel warping and bending the flow of time, but seriously- how long are the days on Ahch-To?

The side-mission to Canto Bight ended up being a waste of time because it accomplished nothing but setting up a fight scene inside a bisected mega-star destroyer. Even the romance between Finn and Rose failed to flourish like the romance between Han and Leia. Sure the space chase gave us a brief mutiny and a short case study on hotshot heroics and their misogynistic leanings but it felt like time poorly spent in order to fill the void between scenes with Rey.

I also have a hard time believing that the Republic didn't have some kind of army. Maybe I'm wrong, but I understood the Resistance to be a Republic-funded band of guerilla fighters acting inside First Order territory. If the old Rebel Alliance didn't beef up an army to deal with pockets of the Imperial loyalists, then they deserve to be wiped out for employing lousy military strategy. If the Republic chose to eschew a formal military in order to avoid the risk of becoming the Empire all over again, then they were naive. This is why I had so much trouble with no one responding to Leia's transmission. It's not like Starkiller Base is still around. Maybe when people get the memo that Snoke is dead and part of his fleet destroyed, their spirits will perk up and they'll find their fighting spirit again.

Either way, I'm intrigued to see what comes to be in Episode IX. There doesn't seem to be much of the past left for them to lean on and borrow from. The way forward is all wide open.

[Ricochet]

After TLJ I have to say I dislike TFA significantly more.

Because you liked TLJ or because you didn't?

Because I could see it either way.

I loved The Last Jedi. TFA was "A Star Wars" movie. TLJ was a great movie that was in the Star Wars universe. I think Last Jedi will hold up more, and stands on its own more, and TFA is, as time goes on for me anyway, more of a "Hey remember how cool THIS was from the Star War"

I agree to certain extent. I prefer everything Johnson attempted to everything Abrams yielded to, in the category of "what/how a new Star Wars movie should normally be". Not that it's a difficult comparison, given that even the Rebels being chased by a giant space wiener-dog would have been preferable to TFA. I think the word "subversive" got thrown in a lot, but as a Star Wars IDGAF-er, I don't mind the bits that TLJ closed the chapter on or refused to expand upon, toy further with or give into out of sheer fan service.

Where I for one draw the line, though, goes two ways:

a) Johnson didn't go all the way through. About two-thirds in, past a crucial 'join me' moment, it reverts to Starwars-esque banality. Make no mistake, the marketing stitches still exist in the movie, the ESB / ROTJ nods exist, but it would have been nice for a cathartic, weird "burn it all" full gesture.
b) it's not a well balanced movie, it really isn't. Daring, sure, but messy all around in the process. One wouldn't normally praise a movie with three endings, plotholes or plot conveniances, a timeline implausibility rivaling that of GoT's season 7, so one shouldn't just because it's a SW movie.

So, you know, far from legendary status, but cred for its effort. I liked Hammill, Ridley was ok; Finn is officially wasted as a character; Kylo Ren remains the most compelling character imo, but even he was dragged through the most absurd amount of bait-of-switch tropes throughout the whole movie. There were some truly dreadful or dumb moments, as well, but I won't spoil into any of them.

I believe Johnson had to work with something that is sort of creatively stuck, on the whole, and might, if anything, have proven these very limitations. This movie also left me with no clue what Episode IX should even be about anymore, apart from a few unfinished confrontations, nor with any particular emotion of looking forward to, consider Abrams' return.

[DharmaHelper]

To be perfectly honest with you [mention]Ricochet[/mention]

Spoiler: show

If as you alluded to, Rian Johnson had gone all in with the 'join me' moment between Rey/Kylo, it would have been the best moment in Star Wars, possibly cinematic, history.

[speedchuck]

To be perfectly honest with you @Ricochet

Spoiler: show

If as you alluded to, Rian Johnson had gone all in with the 'join me' moment between Rey/Kylo, it would have been the best moment in Star Wars, possibly cinematic, history.

Oh good, I'm not the only one who wished it had gone that way

[DharmaHelper]

To be perfectly honest with you @Ricochet

Spoiler: show

If as you alluded to, Rian Johnson had gone all in with the 'join me' moment between Rey/Kylo, it would have been the best moment in Star Wars, possibly cinematic, history.

Oh good, I'm not the only one who wished it had gone that way

Spoiler: show

It may have been a little too deep into Fan Service territory but if that was how they decided to go with it and We got a Gray Jedi type situation for the third film I would have been floored.

[Golden]

I love TLJ. It is quite possibly my favourite Star Wars movie, full stop. I'm like, waaaaaaaaay late to this discussion, but here goes.

Still in spoilers because why not.

Spoiler: show

Things I liked about the movie:

This was a movie about failure, and how on occasion failure is needed to keep them alive.

Rey went to recruit Luke and failed. She left without him. In the end, though, she got in his head enough that he was able to turn up and make just enough difference to keep the rebellion alive. Just. And Luke paid with his life to keep a mere 30 people alive.
Poe failed so many times it was nearly impossible to count. He ordered a strike against the dreadnought which was a massive failure that caused him to be shut out - it was a terrible military decision, but it ended up being critical to their survival. He then ignored the chain of command and rebelled against Holdo in order to stop the tracking beacon, only for that plan to fail too, and not only fail, but also allow DJ to sell out the rebels to the First Order and get a lot more of them killed. This one didn't so much have a redeeming feature - it was a flat out failure.
Finn and Rose went to Canto Bight to get a codecracker and failed. They ended up recruiting a criminal and getting lots of their friends killed, and got caught cracking the code in the process.
Snoke set up a mental connection between Kylo Ren and Rey that drew them together. He did it with the intent of ending Rey and the rebellion, but instead it caused Kylo to believe Rey might turn which led him to kill Snoke. Another failure.
Holdo chose to withhold her plans from Poe. In theory that should have been the right thing to do, given he'd just caused the death of so many members of the resistance. Instead, it just caused the death of more through Poe's subordination.
Kylo Ren killed Snoke because he believed he could get Rey to join him on the, I guess, 'grey side'. He failed, but at that point he'd already killed Snoke. He then failed in his attempts to kill 'Luke' as well. Not to mention Hux's failures.
Rey went searching for her parentage. She didn't find it (and Kylo only told her of what he had seen in visions caused by Snoke, so his view isn't particularly reliable either).

To me, this continued theme of failure was entirely new to Star Wars, and was executed really well. We're expecting to see our heroes succeed and in this movie they essentially failed at every juncture.
It takes the ending of the Empire Strikes Back, I suppose, but to the extreme.

I also thought it was the right kind of funny. The humour was to me reminiscent of the original series (something that TFA did to some extent, and the prequels failed at completely). A highlight was the landing of an iron... where you were supposed to think 'that spaceship looks like an iron' and then it turned out to be an iron.

The Rey/Kylo fight against the Praetorian Guards has in all probability bested the Darth Maul scene for the best lightsabre battle in Star Wars. Actually, the cinematography and choreography were both superb throughout.

It actually gave so many characters more depth. Hux, Kylo, Finn and Poe were all realistically shells of characters without depth in TFA. Here all four of them were given genuine personality and depth.
So was Rose.

What I think people criticise wrongly:

"Holdo should have told Poe the plan" - nah, not after he got so many people killed. When she actually did tell him the plan, he went and told Finn which DJ overheard and it led straight to a bundle more resistance people getting killed. Like, seriously, keep all information out of Poe's hands! Not telling him was completely the right move, and while I understand why people hated Holdo in watching the movie -
that's exactly what you were supposed to feel. You were supposed to be on Poe's side. You weren't supposed to realise that she was right and Poe was wrong until you reflected on things later, because the movie is told from the perspective of our heroes. Holdo will hold up as a character in the longer term.

"Too much politics" - uh oh. But also, nah. This is only even raised because people are sensitive to politics at the moment. Animal cruelty and capitalism might be today's political issues, but in the 70s oppressive government was still a key political issue. The Empire might have been an analogue for the Third Reich, but it had just as many ripples into anti-communism and anti-war sentiments that America was grappling with. There is nothing about this movie that is any more political than the others (and in any even, it's hard to have a war that is absent of politics).

"Snoke and Phasma were too one note" - The Emperor? Boba Fett? There's nothing wrong with one note villains. I don't need to know every detail about the backstory of cool looking characters - sometimes it's simply fine that they look awesome and feel menacing. In particular, Snoke dying the way he did without ever getting to explain his motivations was in my opinion a masterstroke. If we really need it,
it can be done in another movie that's all about him.

"It's too irreverent to classic Star Wars" - this one I dismiss with a but it is essentially what the bulk of criticism comes down to. I see it as kind of whiny entitled bull. So no one has ever astral projected with the force before? Get over it - there are plenty of force things that weren't done until they were. Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder was the ultimate insult to some people. Look, I'm a Star Wars fanboy, but I can't stand the entitlement complex some people have. Sometimes it feels like it's considered a bad movie just because it's not what people have decided they wanted it to be.

"People are too good at the force without training" - I've always seen the force as essentially a faith-based mechanism. That's what Yoda was trying to teach Luke, right? Clear your mind of the belief that you can't do it, and just focus on doing it. Luke could dodge bullets with a helmet on within a few minutes. If there's one thing we know about Rey, it's that she is one of the most faith-filled characters we have ever seen on the show, she has a strong will and strong beliefs, and I have no issue with this manifesting itself by force talent (and lets be fair, it's not that well controlled). She's pretty much a prodigy -
something we've accepted in the past.

What I think people criticise correctly/is legitimately bad

The timeframes were terrible. Mind you, so were TESB time frames (sometimes they feel even more egregious because the Millenium Falcon stuff feels like it's happening within a day while the Luke stuff feels like it's happening over months). Here it feels like you get two full Ahch-To days to only 16 hours elsewhere, which just feels wrong. But then, perhaps that's because of how we're tracking the story. When did the evacuation of the base commence? Is it possible RTey got at least one full day on Ahch-To before the opening events of the movie took place, and we are just getting it out of sequence? It is definitely a little "GOT7". It wouldn't have been that hard to say that they only had 48 hours worth of fuel - that would have upped the psychological pressure (need of sleep, etc), and allowed the time for the rest of stuff to happen.

Canto Bight was also a mess, although I think that's simply because everything there moved far too quickly, and the 'parking on the beach' mechanism for leaving Finn and Rose in jail was contrived. I disagree with the assessment that the whole plot was pointless (see my comments on failure). But it without a doubt felt very prequel-esque. But, it also gave rise to some of John Williams best work - the way the score ran into the 'on-screen band' was very clever.

Admiral Ackbar's cursory death. Come on, you could do better than that! I just said that Holdo was a justified character that will stand up, but it's possible you could have given this entire arc to Ackbar and it could have been amazing.

Overall, my assessment was that this movie rivalled TESB - and whats more, the feeling I got was that if Star Wars was a new think that debuted in 2015 and we only got TESB for the first time in 2018, the reaction would have been similarly reactionary and negative. The criticism seems to me to be fundamentally hypocritical.

[speedchuck]

I love TLJ. It is quite possibly my favourite Star Wars movie, full stop. I'm like, waaaaaaaaay late to this discussion, but here goes.

Still in spoilers because why not.

Spoiler: show

Things I liked about the movie:

This was a movie about failure, and how on occasion failure is needed to keep them alive.

This is exactly what I said when describing the movie. Glad to see I'm not alone.