DFS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

sprityo's last mafia win ISO (Pokemon)

[mention]M Plus 7[/mention], this may inform your effort. I have to go though.

[Tangrowth]

sprityo's last mafia win ISO (Pokemon)

@M Plus 7, this may inform your effort. I have to go though.

Yes, thank you! I'll take a quick look. Appreciate it man.

[MacDougall]

A TH flip leaves behind more breadcrumbs imo.

Ergo I want TH lynched.

What breadcrumbs do you extract from a TH civilian flip?

I already explained this in detail. Read posts.

[sprityo]

sprityo's last mafia win ISO (Pokemon)

M Plus 7, this may inform your effort. I have to go though.

That’s not a real good comparison probably because I died pretty early but

[MacDougall]

Wait you said civilian. It is I who should read posts.

None so much. But I don't care.

[MacDougall]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

[sprityo]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

[Tangrowth]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

Yeah maybe I’m just a fool but he is a hard read for me. I struggle with LHF players.

[Tangrowth]

I’m not sure how I feel about sprityo’s game versus Pokémon. Hmmm.

Honestly I wonder if you guys aren’t town v town. Is we the potential for a scum there for sure but I don’t know... looking at it again it reads like maybe two players caught up in being wrongly suspected?

[Tangrowth]

[mention]Tsaiah[/mention]

Ummm yeah I’m asking a lot but can you tell me what you think of sprityo when you get a chance?

Thank youuu

[Tangrowth]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

What do you mean exactly by something you can agree and work with? You lost me bud.

[Tangrowth]

Mac what are your thoughts on Jay right now?

[Tangrowth]

I promise I will be shutting up most of tomorrow until eod and will just try to concentrate on staying current and rereading. Damn. I mean I want to drown scum and. Want to do everything I can to catch them but simultaneously I hate to drown any townies in content on my behalf.

[MacDougall]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

Yeah maybe I’m just a fool but he is a hard read for me. I struggle with LHF players.

I am just trying to find evidence of you having ever said that before in amongst the absolute bucketloads of games in which you suspected sprityo. All I found is you confidently reading sprityo basically ever game you've ever played with a side of almost always suspecting him.

Strange turnaround from your usual sprityo play.

[MacDougall]

Mac what are your thoughts on Jay right now?

Jay seems like his usual stoic post apocalyptic freedom fighter whose seen some shit type player.

[Tangrowth]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

Yeah maybe I’m just a fool but he is a hard read for me. I struggle with LHF players.

I am just trying to find evidence of you having ever said that before in amongst the absolute bucketloads of games in which you suspected sprityo. All I found is you confidently reading sprityo basically ever game you've ever played with a side of almost always suspecting him.

Strange turnaround from your usual sprityo play.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like I've MLed the guy way too often.

[Tangrowth]

I could make a reads list but... I'm going to sleep on it I think. Might be for the best.

[Tangrowth]

Alright all. See you all tomorrow. I'm going to spend more time re-reading and catching up instead of posting. That's the plan. I also have a busier day tomorrow.

You all fucking rock. This game has been intense and incredible so far. I really am enjoying it. I hope you all are too and are able to put up with me alright. Lol. Let's really make this a solid end to our Day 1 here. I'm looking forward to seeing what you all continue to bring to the table.

[MacDougall]

Mac’s recent posts have softened my image on him. I think he’s actually playing to something I can agree and work with.

Note to self to go back and read Russ’ alien iso

Mac when he suspects you. - Bullshit bullshit. He's bad. Posts suck.

Mac the minute he looks elsewhere and moves his vote. - I think he's actually playing to something I can agree and work with.



If you're a civ maybe try not just auto assuming people who suspect you.

[dunya]

Hey @dunya, how about this for post count?

praise the baby Jesus I didn't sign up as a player in this game

[Infected_alien8_]

Hey all, still catching up, figured I'd post this part so that it doesn't end up being too big of a wall.

I would still very much like to hear what people think of the dialogue between DharmaHelper and I when this day phase was still very young. We argued for a bit over the case I have stated against him, and my own preconceptions and bias will inherently infect my views of that interaction. I want external perspectives.

This would probably be a good enough starting point.

It does seem weird how he seems reluctant to call you suspicious, just lazy - not sure why he wouldn't find you suspicious at that point if he thinks you're genuinely misrepresenting him - yet then goes on to implying you're suspicious. It feels like a contradiction to what he was saying, "you're not bad just lazy", "you're probably bad", meaning maybe his thought process isn't genuine.

There was one point I found compelling in your ISO of Dharma yes, but it's not compelling enough to make me want him lynched over M Plus 7. What was the thing about kyle? The russ thing yes, I can see your perspective, I asked Russ to explain where he was going with that and I'll go from there with that read.

I'm referring to his request that a handful of players give him their "histories".

I don't think I have 'one guy in my crosshairs' at all, he's my top suspect but he's not my only suspect and I think I've made that clear at least.

I wouldn't say you've made it clear. You've hinted, you've suggested, and you've dabbled, but you haven't made it clear.

Oh yeah, I did wonder where he was going with that read, I'm waiting on his response to M Plus 7's question about that.

And well okay fair enough, but what gave you the impression M Plus 7 was the only guy in my crosshairs?

@Infected_alien8_

Okay, i'm mostly popcorning this stretch rn to see all the responses to responses to responses first...

But i gotta say, i also very much have that impression.


Like at this point itt, you respond to and recognize points about other people, but...don't seem to actively pursue any of them to anywhere? So far, you always just come right back to M Plus 7--while in between doing that, you sound for all the world to me like you're talking to him as if you at least have some consideration for him as town. The two halves of that sentence aren't adding up for me. And i'm also getting some impression that your M Plus 7 case is mostly, realistically...one note?

You writing off M Plus 7 and Aby's superfast finding each other town in wildcards as "a special case" is particularly troubling to me right now. Like you literally just saw that, just lived through it (and as scum, too, so you even knew it was real then, from the get go). Why the immediate dismissal of it as "a special case?"

Lemme throw some stuff at you, in case you're town in a tunnel here (stuff i've said elsewhere itt already, but here's some probably really relevant points all in one place):

- Aby and I have extensive experience playing together, and I usually find them as town early in a game (and love playing with them)
- I've become friends with M Plus since y'all's qualifier, and we've discovered that our minds work a lot alike (to the point that i predicted he and Aby would "get there" on each other fast as town, and mesh really well)
- The way M Plus 7 is treating me here is SUPER ALIKE to the way he got there fast on Aby there
- I also got to a pretty damn confident take on him early, and am also expressing that in very strong terms, and you're putting me in your top towns and him unwaveringly in your rifle scope

So okay, how again is that a "special case" before--like why do you even think that enough to dismiss it offhand that way? Is there something behind that I don't know about, or...?

Does entering any of the above into your considerations make you rethink anything?

"Like at this point itt, you respond to and recognize points about other people, but...don't seem to actively pursue any of them to anywhere? So far, you always just come right back to M Plus 7--while in between doing that, you sound for all the world to me like you're talking to him as if you at least have some consideration for him as town. The two halves of that sentence aren't adding up for me."

I'm considering everyone. But at the end of the day I have to choose one person to actually lynch, and right now that's him. So if I'm going to other people, commenting my thoughts on them, then going back to M Plus 7, it's because I'm still considering him as my main suspect. And yes, there is a part of me that considers him as possibly Town of course, for all I know I'm completely wrong.

"And i'm also getting some impression that your M Plus 7 case is mostly, realistically...one note?"

What do you mean by that?

"You writing off M Plus 7 and Aby's superfast finding each other town in wildcards as "a special case" is particularly troubling to me right now. Like you literally just saw that, just lived through it (and as scum, too, so you even knew it was real then, from the get go). Why the immediate dismissal of it as "a special case?""

Because I played two games with M Plus 7 and that was the only time in both of them at all that something like that happened. Everyone else he was paranoid about. He had genuine mindmelds with aby over and over, something pretty unlikely to come from people with opposing alignments.

"So okay, how again is that a "special case" before--like why do you even think that enough to dismiss it offhand that way? Is there something behind that I don't know about, or...?"

The difference is, in my mind, with aby him and aby kept having mindmelds over and over. I can understand why at that point he'd be convinced they were Town. I remember in my qualifiers game I kept getting mindmelds with SR and he was my top town-read partly because of that. But with you it's just tone, you just read as a Townie. As someone who barely knows you yet bases their trust in that, I find that suspicious.

"Does entering any of the above into your considerations make you rethink anything?"

Not really, because even if you have the same sort of thinking as M Plus 7, he hasn't been mindmelding with you, that's not his point, he just finds your Town really townie. But that can be faked, and he knows that, but it doesn't seem at all like he's even considering that with you. It reads like TMI on you.

I still need to do my MP test. I hope I remember tonight before I go to sleep.

Another dialogue I want to see: does anyone out there view the MacDougall/sprityo combat as being civilian-on-civilian? That is not my impression, but I want to hear from dissenters.

I will be back later.

I didn't have that impression when I read it at least, no, but I didn't have the impression of it being otherwise either.

I think a red flip Turnip Head;

1. Clears sprityo
2. Clears Dharmahelper
3. Clears Kylemii

Which would be a crazy outcome.

Why?

I've changed my vote to Turnip Head. I still think sprityo is a good vote but sprityo is a more independent analysis whereas my reasons for voting Turnip Head are strategic. I think it is sound logic for him to be our day 1 lynch.

What about Turnip makes you expect him to flip Mafia, or enough so that you're willing to do this?

infected_alien_8 ISO by Russti

The Good:

I went into this read thinking Alien was backing off from every suspicion. That's actually not entirely the case. He's stuck to his MP guns all game so far, and he expressed a definite (positive) opinion about Colin pretty early on (even if he did later forget why he felt good about Colin).

So those things are worth some brownie points.

The Bad:

Side note: I realized reading back that Jay had pointed both 1) the waffliness and 2) the buddying of Jay before. Kudos to JJJ on those. I already wrote most of this post, though, and I tink the way I highlight it might help some people. So it stays. My point 3 is still new, though.

1. MP will remember that in high school English class, Mr. Goldfuss once told us about an analysis that was done on Hitler's speeches. A univeristy group had apparently analyzed a large number of them line by line and found that nearly every one had a net "opinion content" (I'm paraphrasing here) of 0. What they meant was, every time Hitler expressed an opinion in a speech, he offset it by saying the opposite thing with about the same intensity somewhere else in the speech. This made him very appealing, because everyone in a crowd could find something to agree with him about. (Mr. Goldfuss was weird, and recommended we try to follow this model for some speeches.) Mr. Goldfuss also lied a lot, and it's possible he made up that story entirely, but the core of it applies really well to some posts by Alien. Let's play a game: I'll post an Alien quote, highlight anything where he expresses a positive opinion in green, and highlight anything with a negative opinion in red. I think we'll find quite a few offsetting posts.

Disclaimer: it is Day 0, so I'm not expecting anyone to have iron-clad reads from the get-go. No single one of these is damning, but there are a LOT of these suckers.

Hey everyone!

Pleased to meet you all, very excited to play this game with everyone!

I've read through the thread and I'm suspicious of M Plus 7, slight town-read on Tsai, I want to town-read Jagged but M Plus 7 says they're good at acting Townie so I'm a bit reluctant to do that but I've felt like they've been genuinely hunting so far rather than faking it, and I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?

First post ever. Offers some reads on Tsai, JJJ, and noncommital on Mac

Okay, thanks. So basically, you think it seems reasonable that he's confident due to his past games, and therefore, as a Townie, that confidence would translate into confident reads, whereas as Mafia he'd be more cautious?

That's my best guess, yes.

The nice thing about MP is that he is never going to stop posting, even when he shouldn't be posting, and we'll have every opportunity to critically assess whatever he is doing.

Alright, thanks. That perspective does make sense to me, but I can also see worlds where he does this as Mafia, either because he's aware he might need to come off as more confident, or because he's confident enough to pocket people, so I don't want to give too much credit to that theory personally

Also despite her reasonable explanation for it, aby's kind of reluctance to have much of an opinion on M Plus 7 is pinging me

Look at Tsaiah asking questions and shit.

TSAIAH IS PURE AS FUCK

I WILL CUT ANYONE THAT KILLS HER

Again the confidence in her purity even though you've never played a full game with her so presumably don't know her that well pings me. I agree she looks like she's genuinely solving but I also think she could be faking it, and I don't share your confidence in her being so pure to that degree, which is why it pings me

Two separate reads here: Net neutral on Tsaiah, but still suspicious of MP, as mentioned above.

And, if I'm reading it correctly, he's basically saying 'if I were Mafia I'd know you were citizen, and that's the only scenario where I'd know'. That assumes you're a citizen because he's ignoring the possibility of you being Mafia, meaning that if he was Mafia, he'd be your partner instead of knowing you were a citizen.

I'm not 100% convinced that him working under the assumption you're Town in that post is a 'slip' because he could have just done that as Town of course, and the fact the rest of his posts seem Townie to me makes me want to say gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it

We'll come back to this one.

In response to JJJ's take on DH:

"I already spoke about this post. Not a fan."

I understand your perspective on it, although it wasn't my initial interpretation of it, I just saw it as a joke and that's basically it, I don't necessarily think there's some agenda behind it, though I do agree it's compatible with having an agenda behind it as well.

"This has now become a trend. This is a negative statement about MP which feeds the climate initially generated by Infected_alien8 against him -- but it's masked under the veil of humor. To imply that MP has been promising a rainbow list and failing to deliver is an accusation, and it carries certain weight. That weight is discarded within the humor presented here by the man who made the comment in the first place. Yuck."

I think this is the most compelling point in my opinion, it is a bit of an attack covered in a joke so that he can point it out but not be the one to push it and hopes others will instead so that they take the blame for the lynch/make an enemy with M Plus 7. Could also just be purely a joke and he didn't actually care about the rainbow reads list at all but I get your interpretation, and slightly lean towards agreeing.

"MP then posts the rainbow, and DH gives him shit based upon the inherent invalidity of rainbow lists (see here). MP can't win."

Assuming he was in fact serious about the rainbow reads list yeah this seems like he's targetting M Plus 7 a bit here, in an unfair way, possibly Mafia-agenda

Okay I'm caught up.

I think my top town-reads would be Jay and Tsiah. My main suspicion M Plus 7. Town lean on Mac too but I can't help but feel their post explaining their 'fake' reads was an excuse to stop Jay pushing on them, but it does make sense so I'm sort of like 'well fair enough'. I feel like I need to mull over that post

My opinion is that this is neutral on Mac. Just noticed that Tsaiah morphed into a "top town read" in the space of one post, when the previous one said she "could be faking it".

Russ - Light Town because their posts accusing me felt genuine actually

I am inclined to disagree on this one. I found Russ's take on your proposed Mac slip to be convoluted, in that the variables he introduced (primarily the relationship/experience you've had or not had with MacDougall) to be of shaky relevance, and I struggled to follow the thread of thought he was putting to paper.

Actually I can see that, I too was kind of confused as to where he was going with that, it felt like he was going to say that if I knew him it'd be worse for me because he said it would be a good 'revenge lynch', but then suddenly it was the opposite and I didn't quite feel like I was riding his thought process with him very well, which could be a sign he was kind of making it up as he went along I guess?

I guess maybe net positive on me? If it is positive, it leaves a LOT of wiggle room to change stances, though.

(interior quotes removed for length)

There was one point I found compelling in your ISO of Dharma yes, but it's not compelling enough to make me want him lynched over M Plus 7. What was the thing about kyle? The russ thing yes, I can see your perspective, I asked Russ to explain where he was going with that and I'll go from there with that read.

I don't think I have 'one guy in my crosshairs' at all, he's my top suspect but he's not my only suspect and I think I've made that clear at least.

That he had more than one guy (MP7) in his crosshairs was NOT apparent at this point, by the way, as Jay pointed out.

at some point i want somebody, in some game, to realize that trying to tease out people's thought processes on another player isn't automatically a defense

which is probably a thing you should know based on the way you "defended" Turnip Head without it really being a defense

Well, it felt to me like it was you defending M Plus 7 instead of trying to tease out my thoughts, but looking back on it through your ISO I can see a world where you're doing it to tease out my thoughts as well and you actually haven't defended him as much as I had in my mind. Still though, do you not find your lack of mindmelds with him at all concerning? Didn't you mindmeld with him right from the start last game?

Mac doesn't give a fuck whether sprityo is town. He sees an easy D1 lynch.

Hm, I think I see what you mean here? Like, the post is about 'look at what sprit is doing that's bad regardless of alignment', not 'is sprit Mafia' in this bit

Not sure if I get much out of it alignment-wise though, why do you think that comes from Mafia over Town specifically?

(These last 2 were consecutive posts from him, about the same thing.)

Alright fine if I made just a giant ass of myself so be it. I'll just walk away. Clearly you all could do without me anyway probably.

Not at all. Fwiw I think your point about that post lacking a sense of him sorting his alignment makes sense and your case does make me reconsider him, because even though it's just one post, it could be him falling short on keeping his act up all the time of genuinely trying to sort him. But Townies aren't exempt from making those posts either of course, so it's not something that makes me want to lynch him, just reconsider him, but even if it's wrong and you're Town you at least made sense so didn't make an ass of yourself in my eyes.

This one.....wow. SIX back and forths on Mac! In one post!

2.

Following JJJ's lead.

This one I have to talk about a little. Again, Jay already pointed it out (along with mentioning that Alien's reads have been noncommital, as I showed above):

A trend I have noted in your posts is that you've been pretty agreeable, at least in your dealings with me, in that you have acknowledged at least some portion of a point being made without really committing to that thought. Indeed, the only commitment I observe in your play to this point is to voice suspicion of M Plus 7. I can understand having suspicions of MP, but for him to be the sole suspect of note at this stage of 700 some posts is hard to believe.

Alien has talked to Jay a LOT. I won't quote them all, because there are actually too many and this post will be monster already. But Alien has asked JJJ 23 clarifying or follow-up questions about something he said. To reiterate: 23 follow-up questions. That is NOT including general questions to the thread, commentary or responses to things Jay has said, it's literally just the questions. It looks like buddying/trying to make Jay notice how engaged he is, to me.

Not to mention the times JJJ LITERALLY WAS INSIDE ALIEN'S HEAD:

Russ - Light Town because their posts accusing me felt genuine actually

I am inclined to disagree on this one. I found Russ's take on your proposed Mac slip to be convoluted, in that the variables he introduced (primarily the relationship/experience you've had or not had with MacDougall) to be of shaky relevance, and I struggled to follow the thread of thought he was putting to paper.

Actually I can see that, I too was kind of confused as to where he was going with that, it felt like he was going to say that if I knew him it'd be worse for me because he said it would be a good 'revenge lynch', but then suddenly it was the opposite and I didn't quite feel like I was riding his thought process with him very well, which could be a sign he was kind of making it up as he went along I guess?

Infected_alien8_ I guess I just don't really understand what your initial concern was with my history questions in the first place. like i see where you say "yes, I am also curious about that am waiting for a response" and where you said "cool, nice answer". I don't really understand what were you looking for. what kind of answer wouldn't have satisfied you?

I thought you were scumhunting/town hunting, or trying to look like you were at least, with that question, and I couldn't understand where you were going with it to sort anyone's alignment. So you saying that it was mainly just to make us feel welcome and get into the game made sense and so I'm fine with your answer.

An answer that wouldn't have satisfied me would have been one where you tried to insist it was helping you form a read on us that I didn't find genuine.

did you have that impression of my getting-to-know-you posts before Jay's commentary?

Yes, but I forgot about until Jay brought it up again if I remember correctly

If I had to state what I dislike most about MacDougall, it'd still be that we know for certain that he attempted to emulate his civilian meta when he joined the thread.

That's the thing currently echoing back in my mind as well

3. Asking lots of questions.

Colin just point this out, not about Alien, but I think it applies.

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

Like I said, Alien has asked JJJ 23 follow-up questions. Add in the questions for other people and the general thread, and I'd bet dimes to donuts we're up over 50 in 135 posts. If Colin's point is accurate, Alien exemplifies it.

The Ugly.

You guys know I've been on Alien for this Mac "scumslip" thing. I won't rehash that. Instead, I'll point out all the times Alien said it was a slip, and then the times later on where he said that he never said it was a slip.

I wanted to town-read Mac based on tone but I think they might have possibly slipped?
......(edited for length).......
Despite the rest of mac's post making me feel he's Town, this could be a slip here - he's assuming Jay is Town and not Mafia, because if he's Town, imagining being Mafia still leads to the possibility of him them being Mafia partners, but he ignores that scenario.

The initial waffly, low accountability accusation, which I've already discussed at length.

And, if I'm reading it correctly, he's basically saying 'if I were Mafia I'd know you were citizen, and that's the only scenario where I'd know'. That assumes you're a citizen because he's ignoring the possibility of you being Mafia, meaning that if he was Mafia, he'd be your partner instead of knowing you were a citizen.

I'm not 100% convinced that him working under the assumption you're Town in that post is a 'slip' because he could have just done that as Town of course, and the fact the rest of his posts seem Townie to me makes me want to say gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it

Sure, Alien is not "100% convinced". But he thinks it's slippery enough to raise (twice).

@MacDougall Your 'slip' was because you essentially said "the only way for me to know you're Town is if I'm Mafia', because an underlying assumption of that statement is that they're Town, because if you were Mafia you'd know it, as opposed to knowing they were also Mafia, which is a possibility to you if you're Town. We may just have different ways of thinking but if I'm Town and someone says 'you know I'm Town', my natural reaction isn't 'well if I was Mafia I'd know it, but I'm not Mafia so I don't', because that assumes you are in fact Town. I might think 'well, *if you are in fact Town* then the only way for me to know that is if I'm Mafia', and it was the 'if you are Town' bit that you left out, which could be because you're not thinking about it that way, you're assuming they're Town, because you know they are, because you're Mafia. It's very nitpicky but it's possible it reflects your thought process perfectly and you didn't have any doubt about them being Town.

I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum, my gut says it wasn't at least; maybe just you didn't feel the need to add that part of 'if you're town', even though you did think it, or maybe it was an accidental assumption during that specific part of the thread, like you came at it from an angle of 'you're making this accusation that I'm Mafia and I'm showing you why I've identified this by speaking about it from your point of view', but it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out. Hope that makes sense?

Now it's "Your (Mac's) slip" in the first paragraph, sounding like an assertion that this factually happened and was a slip. Then in paragraph 2, "I don't necessarily think it is actually a slip from scum" (so we're back to "maybe a slip"), then "my gut says it wasn't at least" (not a slip), and then finally "it *could* be a slip, which is why I pointed it out" (which to me reads as "maybe a slip, and I'm leaning that it is".

@JaggedJimmyJay why did you say that Mac wouldn't like your stance on his slip if you didn't actually think it was a slip?

Also for anyone who's played with Mac, is his response to the slip thing telling at all? Would he have such a strong reaction as a Townie do you think?

In both of these references, his slip is just straight up a slip, no waffling.



Then, I started giving Alien heat, and lo and behold!

I didn't say I thought he slipped, I said I thought he possibly slipped, and that I didn't think it was genuinely a slip myself because he seemed Town other than that and my gut says it wasn't, but I wanted to point it out anyway to see if anyone else made anything of it. I didn't want to act like I thought he was genuinely slipping because I didn't, and I didn't see the point of pressuring him to think I did other than to make us have a pointless debate about it.

The colored parts here cannot coexist. Saying you think someone slipped and saying you think someone possibly slipped are actually equivalent. The ONLY difference here is that the second one makes you less associated with the sentiment. This is a CYA.

I think Alien may have been grasping at straws with that slip talk and has now found themselves in the (unenviable) position of defending and debating a suspicion they knew was bunk. On notice.

I'm not defending it, I don't believe in it myself, I said so right from the moment I pointed it out, or right after. I pointed it out to get other opinions on it.

Again, the colored statements above cannot coexist. More importantly, both of these are false, as shown above. You did waffle a CRAPTON making the accusation, but you definitely made it. If you believe it wasn't a slip, then why did you come into the thread saying it might be MULTIPLE TIMES? No civ who genuinely doesn't believe something treis to draw attention to it like that.

It's worth pointing out here that a slip is, by definition, the most obvious of any mafia tell, and we're (mostly) highly experienced at this game and at finding slips. If it were truly a slip, someone would've pointed it out, which is why I keep saying if you don't believe it's a slip, it makes no sense to mention it. Even if you don't, if a slip exists it will be brought up. You were the only person to push this, and you did it in a way designed to give you as littel exposure as possible to blowback no matter the outcome.

Okay, for 1) I think some of that seems pretty biased. For example, when I say "Alright, thanks. That perspective does make sense to me, but I can also see worlds where he does this as Mafia," that isn't me saying I agree but I don't agree, that's me saying I understand what he's saying but I don't think it's very indicative of alignment - the "perspective does make sense to me" making sure he knows I know what he means. "Also despite her reasonable explanation for it, aby's kind of reluctance to have much of an opinion on M Plus 7 is pinging me" is also not me saying 'I think she has a reasonable explanation so I trust it, but her reluctance to have much of an opinion is pinging me", it's me saying that I understand and acknowledge her reason and it does make sense to me, I'm not ignoring it, but her reluctance to form an opinion is pinging me still.

I don't agree with the general notion that my net opinion is 0 on most of these posts, basically. But yes I agree I'm not always certain about how I feel about things.

"That he had more than one guy (MP7) in his crosshairs was NOT apparent at this point, by the way, as Jay pointed out."

Right before that post I made several posts declaring my suspicion on several people. In my mind it was apparent. Just because I didn't then repeat my points again in that final summary post doesn't mean I'm suddenly dismissing my other posts.

For 2), okay yeah I've spoken to Jay a lot because he's had a lot of content worth talking about. If you look at postcount alone I can see why you might think I'm specifically buddying Jay or something, but the actual interactions with him themselves, why are you ignoring those? If I interact with someone much more than anyone else, why can that not be because they've just had a lot I've had questions about, or I've found their points worth commenting on? Do you think I'm ignoring other people in favour of talking to Jay, am I talking to Jay on things that I'm not talking to others on? The fact your analysis ignores the actual content concerns me because it's like you don't actually care about my alignment, you're just making a case and pushing an agenda on me rather than considering that I'm doing these things as Town and investigating further. This whole analysis bugs me so far.

3) Yes I ask a lot of questions, it's just the way my gameplay works, surely it's the nature or content of the questions that matter, so why are you ignoring that?

RE the slip thing, I said right from the start, which you didn't highlight, "gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it". That was my stance from the start. I never said I thought it was a slip, I said I thought it could be a slip. It's like if me and a group of others are looking for a 13 year old target (wow this analogy is weird lol), I see someone who looks 15ish. I point it out - "hey guys, they could be 13 I guess?" even though I think they look 15 because maybe I'm wrong and I want the others to weigh in.

"Now it's "Your (Mac's) slip" in the first paragraph, sounding like an assertion that this factually happened and was a slip."

I put "slip" in '''s to highlight the fact it wasn't something I was asserting, it was me referencing a world in which it was in fact a slip. Again the fact you ignored this reeks of agenda.

"In both of these references, his slip is just straight up a slip, no waffling."

I was referencing Mac's post, okay the words I used just say "the slip" but that doesn't mean I think it was in fact a slip, I guess I was just being lazy with how I was wording it because I thought it was clear I didn't think it was.

And "the slip thing" means "the incident with the whole slip possibility", not that I think he actually slipped.

Okay, "we're all good at the game so there's no reason to point out a slip" makes 0 sense to me. If we all had that perspective and nobody pointed out possible slips then we wouldn't get anywhere with them. It was a subtle enough slip that I felt I should point it out to see what others' thoughts. Again this smells of agenda against me. I pointed it out because it *could* mean something. I wasn't convinced at all it did, but I pointed it out for others' thoughts. I don't understand your issue with that at all.

Overall I feel like you're not genuinely trying to sort me here. The one good point you have in your favour from this is the first bit where you say that your initial read of me always going back on myself isn't true, but I'm pretty sure you never even mentioned that before so that could easily just be you making something up now to make it seem more of a balanced assessment. I don't believe you're actually trying to figure me out. You see I'm talking to someone lots without looking into the actual content - that's not something I'd do if I'm genuinely trying to investigate whether I think it means they're buddying with someone. You reduce my posts to two different colours as if both statements hold the same weight in the opposite direction when they don't. You're misrepresenting my stance on the slip. I just don't understand any of this from a Town perspective at all.

Am I the only one seeing it like this? Am I biased or am I making sense here?

[Infected_alien8_]

Sorry, should have spoilered that

[Infected_alien8_]

I still have to reconcile the possibility of scum Mac with what you are doing right now and slfgknqasdlignadlfg but yeah I like where your head is at right now Mac. I think.

MP. I woke up after having a very long sleep in a very clear headed state with a big smile on my face.

I flipped open my laptop and had a look at the thread.

I saw Sprityo had, again, just painted over my posts with "no u" everywhere.

Rather than calling him names I decided to just make a very reasoned post. I felt so confident that I was right, that I drafted it up like closing arguments in a court room addressing the people.

You are so used to seeing me be cynical and blunt that you got completely pinged by the fact that I didn't yell at him. That is literally all that happened. You then got so fixated on being right about it that you proceeded to make excited posts declaring that you cannot be wrong.

Now that I am back, in no small part because you put back here in my normal place of meta, you are back to reading me as you normally do.

This is exactly what I was referring to in the actual post you called me "town as fuck" in. To a freakin' tee.

You accused me of having an agenda. Yes, I had an agenda. My agenda was trying to drum up a lynch wagon on a guy I think is scum.

Not a fan of this, it reads like Mac knows for sure M Plus 7 is Town.

[Infected_alien8_]

Now, I need the rest of the thread's help. Sanity check: am I insane for thinking there's no good reason to point out a scumslip, waffle on it, and then say you never thought it was a scumslip in the first place? Is Alien just asking lots of questions because he's super friendly, has just it it off with JJJ organically, and waffling on reads because he's new and doesn't know anyone? Does he truly suspect MP is mafia?

I think the answers to all these are a resounding NO. It makes sense to me that he's been caught trying to push a lynch with no accountability, that he's being really nice to JJJ (and polite to the thread in general) in order to curry favor, that he's waffling so as not to be pinned to a bad suspicion, and that he threw out a (first post!) garbage case on MP because that was the one person he knows and he knew roughly what reaction he'd get. However, if my case is weak and/or I'm tunneling, I want to hear about it and have it out now.

Linki: Thanks, MP. And yeah, I didn't include it in my case except to quote JJJ, but he's right - having you as his sole suspicion is nuts imo.

LOL DH good memories. And MP, Goldfuss FTW!!!

I'm not pushing a lynch with no accountability, what does this mean?

I don't even feel as though I'm being 'really nice to JJJ', where are you even getting that from?

I'm a waffly person in general, but your point here is that I'm not wanting to get pinned to a bad suspicion, yet you're also concerned I'm pushing on a lynch? How would I both not want to be pinned on a bad suspicion yet also be pushing on M Plus 7? Do you think he's Mafia too then?

Why is my case on him garbage?

[Infected_alien8_]

That Russ wall on Alien is hot as fuck.

It's not

[Infected_alien8_]

Now, I need the rest of the thread's help. Sanity check: am I insane for thinking there's no good reason to point out a scumslip, waffle on it, and then say you never thought it was a scumslip in the first place? Is Alien just asking lots of questions because he's super friendly, has just it it off with JJJ organically, and waffling on reads because he's new and doesn't know anyone? Does he truly suspect MP is mafia?

I think the answers to all these are a resounding NO. It makes sense to me that he's been caught trying to push a lynch with no accountability, that he's being really nice to JJJ (and polite to the thread in general) in order to curry favor, that he's waffling so as not to be pinned to a bad suspicion, and that he threw out a (first post!) garbage case on MP because that was the one person he knows and he knew roughly what reaction he'd get. However, if my case is weak and/or I'm tunneling, I want to hear about it and have it out now.

Linki: Thanks, MP. And yeah, I didn't include it in my case except to quote JJJ, but he's right - having you as his sole suspicion is nuts imo.

LOL DH good memories. And MP, Goldfuss FTW!!!

Great work on the wall but I'm gonna have to nope you pretty hard here.

You are picking how to interpret his words to suit your read. He did say in the first place that it looked like it could be a slip. He did then refer to it as "the slip" which I am not going to hold against him because I'm not going to force him to refer to it as "the slip that could have been" every time when we all know what he means when he says "the slip".

He also did not say that he never thought it was a scumslip in the first place. He said that he never did say that it DEFINITELY was except for when off handedly referring to it. While trying to explain what was an offhand remark.

So that he didn't do the third part of what you are accusing him of, leaves just the former two. Is there a good reason for pointing out what looks like it might be a scumslip (but can also be town explained). Yes. If you notice something weird as town you point it out and let the rest of us make judgement. Is there a good reason to waffle on it? Well that's the way you would describe it if you wanted to just not be objective. A better thing to ask would be, is there a good reason to not have a firm stance on it? Well yes, because he's just making an observation on something that pinged him. Did he at some point refer to it as a slip outright, yes. Did he do so while ever adjusting the actual point to mean that he now actually believed it was a slip, no.

So to summarise, I'm not convinced the choice of how he has communicated around this slip thing is not suspicious to me, the behaviour is though.

I am fascinated by the pattern of making statements and then offering the alternate perspective every time. That looks very Mafiaish. This is shown in no greater colour than around the way he both accused me of a slip and also didn't.

I apologise for refuting some of your argument and yet agreeing but I think it is important that you are held to a high standard lest we just allow you to get away with a mislynch because you made a wall. Which is a pet hate of mine since dating back to a RYM game I was lynched in a Mafia led assault because they made a big effort to make a case.

Thank you for this, I like this defence of me because it seems easy to just agree with Russ there even though the details of what he's saying don't add up to me

That being said I think you're misrepresenting me when you say I'm offering the alternate perspective every time because I don't think that's true but maybe it is and that's just something I'm doing without realizing. Oh look I did it again lol

[Infected_alien8_]

I would say that the most interesting thing that Russ has managed to capture is that Alien has failed to take firm stances on much (citation needed) and instead has consistently just pointed at things and said, this could be this OR that. Which at the scale that Russ has pointed out looks Mafia.

In isolation, this is fine but as an overwhelming majority of his content, it is suspect.

That being said Alien has maintained a consistent scum read on MP which he hasn't wavered from too much. How that fits into a scum Alien profile alongside the other facts here is best answered by another.

I think for the most part I have had a clear opinion one way or the other. I think Russ' post where he gives two colours to things is misleading because it acts as though I'm balancing my arguments when in fact in some of them I'm just acknowledging other possibilities, not that I'm saying those possibilities are just as likely, and in fact I'm pretty sure in most of my posts I haven't even done that and I've given a solid "this is what I think of this", like with Luna, M Plus 7, Jay, some other random posts where I've specifically liked them or disliked them. I've not gone through my ISO to verify that but I'm pretty sure the notion that I'm just counter-argueing with myself is wrong

[Infected_alien8_]

i can do my best to explain tsaiah's meta if REALLY pressed on it, but i haven't played with her as scum in a long while and i'm not particularly good at explaining people's meta "in general." if i give meta, it's usually a very specific point (like discussing off-topic stuff at EOD being more indicative of her scum game), not an overall take on it

it's not a tool i personally heavily utilize, so it would be a bad idea for you to consider tsaiah's play based on my clumsy explanations of her meta.

I really think she'd be less present and more fluffy if she was scum here. What do you think of that?

It also helps that I feel like I can genuinely understand how she's arrived at pretty much every conclusion or question she's posted so far.

i think that Tsaiah is likely town here based on what i've seen from her so far (caveat: want to see her words on why i'm becoming townier to her). i don't think she's incapable of faking this presence or fluffiness as scum, especially this early in the game, but i do think it's something that would degrade more as the game went on

unless, of course, you're both scum together, in which case she could probably do this forever

And especially, i really don't think scum!Aby evvvver thinks to say the bolded, lmao

Y'all, their reads and thoughts are real

Aby's town

/happy dance

Which part did you mean to bold here? Sorry, I don't see it

[Infected_alien8_]

*552 posts*

*breathes fire everywhere*

How anyone could think this is within my scum range is beyond me.

Can people talk about this, is M Plus 7 truly quieter when he's scum than Town?

[Infected_alien8_]

Also lol at Alien saying this in his first wall post in G9 where we were both town:

"M Plus 7 seems townie to me at first because he's so thorough and widespread in his questioning and all his questions seem meaningful, reasonable and productive. His reads all seem reasonable to me as well. But I have this sort of paranoia where I get worried he's actually a pro at the game and is Mafia and the fear of being wrong about him gets to me and I start to question my read on him a lot."

Good times. Feels like simultaneously yesterday and forever ago.

You're making me all nostalgic

[Infected_alien8_]

Also ALIEN GOAT

"I don't have anything solid on Mexal at all, this is purely just a gut feeling. I know that's not helpful in the slightest but I just wanted to say it - when I read his posts I just smell Mafia and I don't quite know why."

dammit man I forgot you said this IN YOUR FIRST POST EVEN

[Infected_alien8_]

Anyway if my plans fall through tomorrow I promise to post Began gifs and be an insufferable asshole and whatever else you normally associate with me

Began, from The Balling Dred

Oh no if you're gonna do negal from TWD please no spoilers (or, I guess, use spoilers!)

[Infected_alien8_]

I'm loving this emotes by the way

[Infected_alien8_]

these*

that is the second time I made that exact mistake

[Infected_alien8_]

Alright, I have completed a brief meta check on MP. My method was very basic: for each of his three most recent games (MU champs #9, MU wild card #1, and this game), I focused only on the first 200 posts he put into each game thread. I could have chosen any number here, but I wanted a decent sample without making the workload longer than the methodology can sustain given its limitations. Among those 200 posts, I counted those which I felt adhered more or less to the following conditions:

~ Does not promote the generation of reads (or is unlikely to do so)
~ Does not aid other players in making a read on MP himself (or is unlikely to do so)
~ Is not necessary to explain MP's perspectives relevant to the game or to promote thread motion
~ Does not bear an obvious strategic purpose
~ Is literally in off-topic green

Note: this is an inexact science. It can be difficult to determine whether some individual post deserves to be classified this way. I have just now counted, and if I were to do it again in a half-hour the counts would likely change some small amount. I'm not delicately deliberating over every post. I am viewing them for a moment each and making a judgment.

Why did I think this would be meaningful? It may not necessarily be, but it's a simple means of assessing MP on one important front. Is he spamming this thread deliberately to inflate his post count? I think that's an important question because of the following points:

~ He is MP, and MP is generally expected to post frequently in his civilian body.
~ He was just involved in two MU tournament games as a civilian in each, and he produced by far the highest post counts he has ever managed
~ If he is a mafioso in this game, it is nearly a certainty that he would place a high priority on generating a high post count to suit baseline expectations
~ If he is a mafioso, generating a comparable post count with authentic-seeming content is a daunting task. Taking every opportunity to infuse the thread with fluff inflates the count without necessarily making him look terribly different from his usual self.

The results:

DFS Mafia

63 of 200 posts met the "spam" criteria -- 31.5%.

MU tournament game #9

25 of 200 posts met the "spam" criteria -- 12.5%.

MU tournament wild card game #1

36 of 200 posts met the spam criteria -- 18%.

Discussion:

MP has been more prone to spam in this game than he was in either of those. Even considering the variance inherent to this method, that much is apparent to me. Some possible explanations for this which should be considered:

~ MP is back at his home site, and is familiar with everyone in this game now. He has more to say in a casual sense, and more excitement to express at the prospects before him. He was unfamiliar, generally, with the players he encountered in the MU games.
~ MP's spam isn't necessarily always self-driven -- sometimes it is responsive to other spam from other sources. There may be more of that present in this game than the MU games.
~ MP is a mafioso and is taking every opportunity to make whatever posts he can make to ensure his post count is elevated well above second place.

I don't think this is a reason to lynch MP now, or even to turn a civilian read on him around. It is a reason for vigilance though in our considerations of his play. It is easy to observe his enthusiasm and his effort, check the civilian box, and continue about our business. I think that would be a mistake.

To be fair I've seen him mention several times that he's just trying to spam post to enflate his post count so he's not exactly being subtle about it if that's his intention, although he did point to his post count afterwards and say he's out of his scum range so you could be onto something with that.

(counter-argueing myself here again I know )

[Infected_alien8_]

I'd like to return to this one, alien:

Okay, thanks. Do you think M plus 7 not sharing your opinion there is suspicious, why/why not?

And, if I'm reading it correctly, he's basically saying 'if I were Mafia I'd know you were citizen, and that's the only scenario where I'd know'. That assumes you're a citizen because he's ignoring the possibility of you being Mafia, meaning that if he was Mafia, he'd be your partner instead of knowing you were a citizen.

I'm not 100% convinced that him working under the assumption you're Town in that post is a 'slip' because he could have just done that as Town of course, and the fact the rest of his posts seem Townie to me makes me want to say gut-wise it's not a genuine slip, but I think it's worth considering at least unless I'm completely misunderstanding it

To me, "slips" are usually a disease. They certainly exist and people on occasion get nailed. 95% of the time though the accusations are wrong at best. I've highlighted this bit specifically because the mindset you are expressing doesn't work for me. If what Mac said can be reduced to "he could have just done that as Town of course", then how can it have been a slip in the first place? Isn't a slip something that can by definition only come from a non-town source, or at least an informed source? You've described the mafia Mac version of the slip already. Please explain the town Mac version.

I don't share your definition of a "slip" then. I've lynched Town before because they 'slipped' by assuming someone is Town, or by saying something that seems like it means they're Mafia - sometimes Town have brain farts and it leads to slips that aren't a slip, or they just word things in a misleading way.

In fact I observed a game recently where everyone mislynched the Jailor because they worded their post in a way that seemed like a slip (although in that case I disagreed with them that it was a slip but I wasn't alive to say so).

In this particular case though the 'slip' was really subtle and I could see him do that as Town - I explained the Town Mac version already at some point, but basically I thought he could have just failed to include the "if you are in fact town" part of his thought process onto his post despite thinking it, or he was trying to show he understood where your wit was coming from as a Townie in that moment so wrote it that way

[Infected_alien8_]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

What's interesting about it?

[Infected_alien8_]

Mac what are your thoughts on Jay right now?

Jay seems like his usual stoic post apocalyptic freedom fighter whose seen some shit type player.

I have no idea what this means but

[Infected_alien8_]

Okay, I'm caught up except for reading aby's reads list so going to do that now and then I'll post my own reads list updated and then take a break

[MacDougall]

Ugh, why is sprityo perpetually such a difficult player to assess?

Take this as a compliment man. You're tough to figure out.

Do you really think so? Hmmm that is interesting.

What's interesting about it?

You just asked me to clarify more than one thing I have already proceeded to clarify.

[MacDougall]

For 1. I explained my reasoning for my vote being on TH
And 2. I immediately explained why MP's comments were interesting

ISO me and you will find both.

[Infected_alien8_]

some reads/impressions on the game so far:

ColinIsCool - encouraged people to give extra meta for specifically scum play, which is a +1 in my opinion. the post itself is pretty open-ended and inclusive, which i think indicates more town behavior (attempting to assess a wide range of people in the game + generate content about those players). i feel conflicted about him spelling out that he isn't willing to vote for new players on exactly D1; i think it's a good policy that avoids some of the easier mislynches of the game, but the need to spell it out more than once is so-so. liked his progression on alien.

he's done a couple things that i'm not a fan of: he asks the thread-at-large if sprityo picking apart Mac's reads list was hunting or discrediting without offering his own opinion til prompted, but i'm holding off on really evaluating him on that point since it's the dead end of his ISO.

-

DharmaHelper - will not stop talking about the fact that he hasn't read the game, which got annoying about the third time he mentioned it. unfortunately, not reading the game isn't technically AI. he started my ISO but i think he dropped it because i haven't seen anything else. he makes me laugh but unfortunately that isn't AI either. idk call me when he starts playing the game for real and i'll reassess.

-

Infected_alien8_ - ok, so i'm assigning alien the color i chose for "slight scum," but it's mostly because i'm being pulled in a few different directions with him and i don't wanna slap the neutral color down on him bc he's done scummy+towny stuff (not just Nothing). i could see him as either town or scum as of right now, and i'm worried that i'm having some difficulty reading him because of how recently we played together where he was scum, but whatever. he's absolutely the towniest of the 'slight scum' and could probably do with his own color or tier, but eh.

i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town.

where i'm not following is where he does things like accuse Lunalee of not being genuine before he ever tries to engage her on where he thinks she's wrong. he says that she is wrong about him being in commentary mode/not having opinions: fine. he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade.

points in favor: seems to be posting more loosely now than in wildcards, seems to want follow-up on his thoughts, invites thread to participate in his thoughts, tone might be good? (i have decent vibes off of his posts but i'm not sure if this is tone or just me being stupid)
points against: strayed a bit more toward overexplaining as the game has gone on, seems laser-focused on MP7 without a lot of willingness to reassess (it feels like every few pages that MP7 posts, Alien pops up to say it's scummy without considering town possibilities), suspicion on Lunalee seems odd, has an "off" feeling about me that he can't seem to get a grasp on even when i engage him about it.

-

JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well.

there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing.

-

Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for.

-

Lunalee - her first notable post is a reads list that i like the formatting of (i'm a sucker for things that jump out at my face, ok?) and is in reverse alphabetical order, which is fun. there are some sort of empty reads there, though idk if i can fault her for it considering it was D0 and she didn't seem to indicate reading the entire thread. her interaction with Robot on sprityo/Mac is kind of weird; i think it's a worse look for Robot than it is for Luna (obviously it could be bad for both of them). i think her take on it is a little bit too summary-like, but has an interesting take on it that i like (and iirc is not actually in line with the thread consensus).

she doesn't seem to have any issues with her opinions and doesn't seem interested in changing them without a good reason to do so (can be seen pretty easily in alien engaging her on sprityo). she has a couple of things that are a little immediately off-putting to me (like saying "you should trust me, I have been nothing but my usual town self this game" to MP7), but i've seen similar things from MP7, so it may be a cultural difference...? would appreciate somebody who's used to this forum weighing in on that.

-

MacDougall - a bit aggressive at times/in directions that i don't always fully understand. a lot of his posts seem like he's just reacting to things that happen in the thread (especially-to-almost-exclusively the ones that pertain to him) instead of producing much of his own content, but it's early so that may be a shit take. i don't like him admitting to trying to adhere to his town meta; i don't intimately know his play history so the context may change that, but i kind of just want to automatically lynch people who make admissions like this.

i like him telling Jay to go back to suspecting him. it's funny and probably comes from town more often than not. i liked his conduct with MP7 post-mutual outburst, too. i'm leaning on the side of him being town that plays in a self-centered way (i really don't know how to word this in a way that doesn't sound rude; i think it's a legitimate way to play for a lot of people) and expresses frustration easily.

some more points in favor: i like him appearing to engage people genuinely once he's calmed down a bit (appears to do this without calling somebody town/giving credit to them, but engages them anyway). if his statements about viewing meticulousness being a mafia trait are accurate (anyone w/ experience with Mac that wants to weigh in on that?), i don't think his posting matches up to that.

-

Marmot - i was frankly surprised Marmot had even 8 posts, so i guess my memory sucks.

-

M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter).

-

RobotNerd277 - Robot seems to be in perpetual catch-up mode so far, which isn't AI, but is a good mode to be in if you want to avoid potential scumslips. says they're trying to get a read particularly on Mac, but i'm not certain as to why; they then ping Mac to ask for a reason to not be at the bottom of their reads list. their worry with MP7 and subsequent clearing-up of that worry is an interesting progression, but i'm not sure if i think it's town or not. like i mentioned briefly in Lunalee's section, Robot leveling a question about sprityo/Mac to Lunalee is weird and almost like they're expecting to be questioned on why they're asking Luna specifically. i might feel better once Robot real-times some more.

some points in their favor: says that strong townreads are good to have early on as long as you reevaluate (caveat: robot/tsaiah could be partners, but their other interactions don't make this the likeliest in my brain). read on Jay seems good and not necessarily conventional (gives a point about liking Jay's read on me specifically; Robot doesn't have a strong townread on me so it's likely not buddying, and w/ Jay being consensus town, they didn't have to give a reason that specific). rather minor points in the long run but i want to keep them in mind.

this read is really one more about conflicting pieces of evidence than anything, and me wanting to keep my eyeballs on Robot because of it. has Robot played here before or something?

they posted this while i was ISOing Russ and i hate it:

Wait why the sudden flip onto Kylemii? I'm willing to join the wagon, but I just don't understand why.

if you don't understand why the wagon is happening, why are you willing to join it?

-

Russtifinko - kinda started off with a decent and reasonable analysis of Mac and alien re: the scumslip situation. i like his interactions overall with alien, actually; Russ comes off like he's grilling him, but the logic isn't thin there. him questioning Colin on why he's high up in the reads list is a good look, and he again comes in with reasonable words with Mac and MP7-this-time. seems self-assured and willing to follow his own thoughts and he just seems really nice!

-

sprityo - i hate, hate, hate the way that the Mac ISO is formatted. it's hard to read. that's not AI, i just wanted to complain about it.

what i'm getting from reading sprityo's ISO is that it's largely reactionary, which by default makes him hard to read for me. he said that Mac is attempting to distance from Jay, at the same time that Mac is giving Jay a townread--does 'distancing' mean something different in this forum than in mine? because to me, distancing implies that two scumbuddies are attempting to appear like they don't have knowledge of each other's alignment or are putting light suspicion on one another to seem like they aren't teamed. sprityo went into that ISO with the express purpose of dismantling Mac's arguments, regardless of alignment.

points in favor: good ISO of Jay, seems to be going all-out w/ Mac, sprit/Mac are an unlikely team*
points against: quickly dismissive of Mac's posting, apparent bias in assessing Mac (probably 65/35 on this coming from scum though), has two very consensus townreads (and no other townreads)

*this doesn't really matter for D1, it only matters for potential reference later on

-

Tsaiah - she's posting pretty easy-breezy this game, and seems to be evaluating and poking in the places that i'd expect her to evaluate/poke. while i like that she was able to give reasoning for me 'getting townier' and the progression makes sense to me, that's only moderate confidence for me on her being town. i think for the most part, the safest way for me to go with Tsaiah is just to gaze at her warily for most of D1 and pick apart what she says and see if any of it rings false/distracting. atm she's following the flow of the thread well and seems authentic and like she's enjoying herself.

-

Turnip Head - first really game-relevant post is just asking if Colin is bad without offering any of his own opinions. does the same thing later on with Lunalee. he's clearly been around and has said almost nothing that could be construed as solving or trying to progress the game forward. i don't really care if it's "too suspicious to be suspicious" or whatever logic is supposed to apply here, he's just not really moving the thread forward or showing off his shiny thoughts and i don't like it.

this is a sad read for me to have to make because i really like TH's name.

arranged more in colorful order for easier viewing:

Spoiler: show

M Plus 7
JaggedJimmyJay
Kylemii
Tsaiah
Russtifinko
MacDougall
ColinIsCool
Lunalee
Marmot
DharmaHelper
(Infected_alien8_)
sprityo
RobotNerd277
Turnip Head

"i've already stated that i think alien's entrance to thread is towny. it's a lot more solid and less hedge-y than Alien was in wildcards (where he was scum), and even though i disagree with his points on MP7, i can sort of understand where it's coming from: Alien played two games with a town MP7, and the last game Alien was scum while MP7 was town; if Alien is town in this game, then his last experience of MP7 was seeing him post in a very town-like manner (because Alien knows he is town), and now he can't see his posts at the same level of towniness because he doesn't have that confirmation. i have zero difficulty seeing that post/its proximal follow-up as coming from town."

This is pretty insightful actually, I like this take. Maybe that is what's happening.

"he says that her thoughts about not only him, but about Turnip Head, are not genuine and make her scummy: not fine. it doesn't feel like he's trying to solve there, it feels like he's trying to shade."

Not following sorry, why is that not fine and feeling like I'm trying to shade instead of solve?

"JaggedJimmyJay - i had a townread form on Jay somewhat early, which is sometimes a bit worrisome for me but i think is probably fine here. he came out of his cage giving opinions on everything, which i like a lot. he seems like he's in Takes Everything Seriously mod & also seems to be encouraging content on a similar level to MP7, but not in the same places (if it was in the same places, i'd feel like Jay might be just following MP7 around and echoing him or vice versa, so that's a bonus). i liked that he suspected me at first and later gave some sensible light aby-could-be-town reasoning; his posting on MP7 has been pretty solid as well."

I like this a lot as a point.

"there are some things i really love in the way he posts, too. like letting people respond to things before responding to them himself/giving his own take, even though he clearly has one--it's a minor thing but i think it reflects a townie's mindset pretty well and also indicates valuing process over appearance IMO. maybe it's a little too minor, but it's something that i really like seeing."

But didn't you suspect Colin for doing that? What's the difference?

"
Kylemii - seems to be posting in a lighthearted way that could probably easily veer into detached, but i don't think it has yet. he posted asking people about their histories, and when Jay responded saying that he thought it reflected poorly on kyle, kyle turned that on its head with a question that i liked. generally a good look. he called me soft good which is better than normal good because it's softer and therefore better fight me. (actual impression: i think his reads list makes sense and doesn't feel like he's padding it or unnecessarily shading anyone).

overall doesn't feel like he's feeling a lot of pressure in particular, but is keeping up and doing his thing anyway. he's not posting in a high-volume/wordcount way but there's thoughts there that i don't have to fight for."

What about his question did you like/why was it generally a good look here? Also do you think the fact that despite feeling pressure he's keeping up and doing his thing makes him Townie, and why?

"M Plus 7 - i am not ISOing MP7 as a whole. bite me. i like his enthusiasm and his eagerness to both post and get other people to post alongside of him (the latter in particular, more strongly than the first point). more recently i like the way he pounced on Mac but then backed off and apologized for his behavior in a way that seemed sorta sheepish (in the sense of "i jumped the gun" not "oops Mac has teeth" since he'd know the latter)."

Bit confused by your strength of your M Plus 7 read - why does he get strong Town for being enthusiastic and eager to get people to post? Don't you think he'd do that as scum?

--

Overall I quite like this post, some of it I find really insightful and agree with. Don't understand the M Plus 7 read though, the read on kyle feels slightly too generous too but I'll wait for a response

--

Okay, I'll do a rainbow reads list this time because a few people keep pointing out that I only have 1 suspicion or something and I think it's because I'm not laying out my order of everyone clearly and so the only way people have to gauge where I'm at is by seeing who I'm pointing at more, which is M Plus 7 due to the sheer amount of content he has that I can address and also because I've wanted to lynch him most. Maybe this clears things up a bit in terms of where my head is at:

Strong Mafia

Moderate Mafia
M Plus 7 - moving this down to moderate for now because aby's take on it is making me doubt myself and maybe I'm just being a tunnelly idiot. His dogpees don't feel real to me at all though
Luna - reads feel forced as I've mentioned already, their tone and lack of panic in general is holding me back from putting them as 'Strong Mafia' though
Russ - his push on me feels agendary, I don't get the sense he's trying to actually sort me at all, but not putting him at Strong yet because I want others' thoughts on this first since I'm likely biased

Slight Mafia
DH - Jay had some good points about him choosing only the weak point in the ISO to respond to and his read of jay being 'I don't know if you're bad' and then suddenly 'you're probably bad' reads as a fake progression to me, but I'm not sure why he'd post the way he's been posting as Mafia because theres 0 attempt to fit in as a Townie at all and I don't think he'd try to rely on a WIFOM like 'why would he do this as Mafia!' to win the game

Neutral
Kyle - don't remember any of their posts, maybe that's a bad thing but my memory does suck
Marmot - I didn't think they'd posted but aby said they have 8 posts
Robot - their meta seemed different to me at first, but their 'I'll sheep the wagon' post actually seemed a lot more like robo was last game I played when they were Town - although they did this right after I pointed out their meta was different so hesitant to award big points for it, but it makes me feel a bit better about them at least. Their read on Luna felt a bit TMI though, but I'm waiting to here their responses to me about that before I look into that further
Sprit - don't remember any of their posts other than when they were attacking Mac and I didn't really feel anything particularly alignment-indicative about it other than it felt like the ratio of defence:figuring Mac's alignment out was a bit biased to defence, so minor point against him for that. M Plus 7 said they're low hanging fruit so I want to give them the benefit of the doubt a bit and wait to see more content from them to form a proper opinion. Out of the neutrals he's probably the closest to being in the Slight Mafia category
Turnip - don't remember any of their posts really, so no opinion here either, I think I saw them say they're not reading the thread properly yet?


Slight Town
Colin - I still don't remember why I feel this way so I should go back and check
Mac - mostly seems authentic and I don't see much agenda for the most part, but his 'annoyance' with M Plus 7 didn't translate into his posts at all for me so I wonder if it's fake, also his push on sprit didn't have any solviness to it but I can also see a world where he does that as an annoyed Townie who just wants to lynch the person. Not sure at all what to make of his 'I lied to fit into my meta' thing, it can swing both ways to me, but it keeps echoing in the back of my mind and making me paranoid. My gut says he's Town despite that stuff so I'm putting him here but out of all the Town reads I have this is probably the lowest.
Aby - my mind is flip-flopping on aby a lot, she felt off all game before her latest reads list, which I like a lot and seems like someone genuinely coming from a point of not knowing anyone's alignments because most of the reads I can relate to. But I find their M Plus 7 read concerning, as well as their early interaction with M Plus 7 feeling awkward and weird. I'll put them in Slight Town for their latest reads post but she's fairly close to neutral and if M Plus 7 turns out to be Mafia she'll likely be my next #1 suspicion.


Moderate Town
Nobody I guess!

Strong Town
Jay - I like most of his points, I read him as genuine, I buy that he's actually trying to solve the game and I find his lines of investigation insightful.
Tsiah - I love their lines of inquiery, it's all very unique and poking into things that everyone else glossed over. It reads very journalisty and investigative y, and I get overall good vibes from them.

[Russtifinko]

at Alien quoting my post. Also, did that run beat MP for most posts in a row?

Mac, JJJ, thanks for the feedback. I don’t think Alien’s defense just now holds any water. I think there’s enough there that I’m leaving my vote on Alien.

Alien, one point you didn’t address directly in my ISO is that you seem to have the impression that you’re giving clear reads, but to me any reads you’re doing are 100% lost in wafflespeak except your one-note MP suspicion. Can you do a rainbow list or something similar so that there’s a tangible record of where you stand? I’m not comfortable letting you slide in just saying “Russti’s mean and unfair - I’ve had reads all along!”, because I just read your entire post history and didn’t see them.

I liked Kylemii’s point a few pages back noting that Tonot just goes along with whatever others say about him. Robot has rocketed up my list as a result. However, that gives me some slight apprehension since my top 2 suspects are new people. And I normally refuse to lynch newbies on Day 1.

[Infected_alien8_]

For 1. I explained my reasoning for my vote being on TH
And 2. I immediately explained why MP's comments were interesting

ISO me and you will find both.

Yeah I know sorry, I was posting those while catching up but I saw your responses afterwards

This is partly why I don't like doing catching-up-posts but my walls tend to annoy people so I've started trying to do those now

[Infected_alien8_]

at Alien quoting my post. Also, did that run beat MP for most posts in a row?

Mac, JJJ, thanks for the feedback. I don’t think Alien’s defense just now holds any water. I think there’s enough there that I’m leaving my vote on Alien.

Alien, one point you didn’t address directly in my ISO is that you seem to have the impression that you’re giving clear reads, but to me any reads you’re doing are 100% lost in wafflespeak except your one-note MP suspicion. Can you do a rainbow list or something similar so that there’s a tangible record of where you stand? I’m not comfortable letting you slide in just saying “Russti’s mean and unfair - I’ve had reads all along!”, because I just read your entire post history and didn’t see them.

I liked Kylemii’s point a few pages back noting that Tonot just goes along with whatever others say about him. Robot has rocketed up my list as a result. However, that gives me some slight apprehension since my top 2 suspects are new people. And I normally refuse to lynch newbies on Day 1.

I think I am giving clear reads. I've had a clear suspicion on luna, I've had a clear town-read on Jay. I know for a fact I've seen several posts and commented on them with something like 'I like this because...' or 'I don't like this because...'.

I can probably go through my ISO and quote them all if you want me to do that. I know I've been giving reads other than M Plus 7 and not just giving waffle.

[Russtifinko]

Oh yay, Alien did a rainbow list literally while I was asking for it! It’s like Christmas! Thanks!

[Russtifinko]

Appreciate the list. I see I’m now mafia because I’m after you - cool.

I actually agree with you on Marmot, though; aby said 8 and I was like “Wait, not 0??” And I actually feel like you have some tangible reads you can be held accountable for now, instead of just brunch and accusations-that-aren’t-accusations.

[Infected_alien8_]

Appreciate the list. I see I’m now mafia because I’m after you - cool.

I actually agree with you on Marmot, though; aby said 8 and I was like “Wait, not 0??” And I actually feel like you have some tangible reads you can be held accountable for now, instead of just brunch and accusations-that-aren’t-accusations.

Not because you're after me, because I don't feel like you're unsure about my alignment or trying to consider me as Town. Your whole case against me felt biased and incomplete. It feels like an agenda. I'm always self conscious of OMGUS bias and the like so I'm sorry if that's what this is but you don't feel like you're genuinely trying to sort me at all, and your "I see I'm not mafia because I'm after you" also feels like you're trying to misrepresent me.

And I don't think I have had just accusations-that-aren't-accusations either

[Infected_alien8_]

I'm kind of baffled people think I haven't been giving reads other than M Plus 7 to be honest. In my mind I've been very clearly stating my opinions on things. It's why luna's read on me about having no opinions felt in-genuine. Just going to my first post I see clear opinions that aren't waffles, and I'm certain the rest of my ISO has that stuff too.

[ColinIsCool]

Does Kyle usually ask a lot of questions? Like, maybe it’s the alcohol but this pinged me:

players who know infected alien, how would you characterize their civ gameplay? mafia gameplay?

do they often go out of their way to weigh in on things, both positively and negatively? is there a correlation to alignment or is it a consistent behavior across the board

When I’m scum I frequently will pose questions not necessarily related to anything in the thread that are juuuuust relevant enough to make it look like I’m attempting to solve. That’s what this post felt like.

colin I would like to hear your thoughts on the fact that asking questions to get a feel for shit in the early phases is literally a well known trademark of my gameplay, whenever you get the chance

My only response is that you yourself admit you have a meta tailored for making it easier on you as scum, so it's hard for me to assign townie points to the behavior either way. My point was that it's a scum calling card of my own, and one you may possibly be using.